UTV Clicksilver Con

Atreides

Originally posted by PcP
Okay skanger

1) the throttle did happen, not just to me and UTV admitted the fault after the event.

2) What the hell is this then?? "but UTV's version was and still is alot more reliable then eircoms"

3) I didnt claim anything, I merely explained why I'm prepared to pay over the odds until my contract expires. My connection is unreliable. When my contract expires I will look for someone more reliable. Surely that aint too hard to grasp.

throttle to me is cutting back your speed outside of the contention system during peak hours or due to excessive downloading, to the best of my knowledge UTV never admitted to this practice.

UTV is more reliable then eircom, I can claim this as I've had both products.

The last point, you can break your contract and pay a fee which may or may not be less then the cost of continuing the contract. Your problem is less to do with the new services and more to do with the fact you're not happy with the service. You say your connection is unreliable, I say show me an isp that offers a more reliable service under the same spec, 48:1 adsl service does that make for a reliable service, don't expect eircom or iol to be any better. You also say you look forward to a more reliable service, the 24:1 contention of the new utv product should prove to have more reliable download speeds, as for the rest its equipment issues and and landline issue, that won't change no matter who you go to unless your going to get an esat business line in.

Atreides

Originally posted by Xcellor
Speaking from a neutral standpoint. Being with IOL and not UTV.

I think what they are doing is low. Yes people signed up and were happy paying whatever the original price was but things have changed with wholesale price going down.

UTV could quite easily reduce the price of BB for existing customers if they wanted to WITHOUT losing any profit.

A lot on this board seem to have the opinion that if you were happy paying the price before you should have the same feelings now. Look at it from the companies viewpoint now... If they were happy with the profit margin that they had previously, then they should be happy with it now (even though their prices have gone down they are still making profit because wholesale prices have gone down too). They are taking in more profits from their existing customers than they need to. This may not be legally wrong, but it's morally wrong.

If UTV cared about their customers they would automatically pass the saving on. No questions asked. It's bloody ridiculous that in a consumer orientated society companies like this exist...

There really is no excuse for UTV's attitude IMO... If they were confident in their service and feel they are providing a quality service then what do they have to fear? Trying to tie people into extending contracts is just wrong. If I was a UTV Internet subscriber then as soon as my contract ran out I would change to an alternate service provider out of principle even if UTV are the cheapest provider (provided you swictch CPS)...

I am trying my best not to rant away here, but I just can't express how disappointed I am in this seemingly promising Internet Service Provider... I find it ludicrous that there are people here with UTV Internet and are justifying the actions. It's exactly that sort of attitude that will make UTV feel that they can get away with it.

Plain and simple for those of you who didn't read all the above:
UTV are over charging existing customers and don't give a toss unless you lock yourself into another contract with them. That is wrong.


X

UTV did not reduce the price of the old product or upgrade it, they disscontinued it, and offered to new adsl products, hardly seems unreasonable you would have to sign up for a new contract for a new product, now does it. Othe isps simply lower the price of there existing products.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Xcellor
I think what they are doing is low. Yes people signed up and were happy paying whatever the original price was but things have changed with wholesale price going down.

UTV could quite easily reduce the price of BB for existing customers if they wanted to WITHOUT losing any profit.

Possibly, if they wanted to charge €40 instead of €30. They chose an alternative route, which saves new and existing customers an extra tenner a month.

A lot on this board seem to have the opinion that if you were happy paying the price before you should have the same feelings now.

That's not my point. It seems simple to me: you signed up for a service at a given price, and now you're being offered a choice of either continuing to pay that price, or benefiting from a new contract without having to pay a new user signup fee.

Look at it from the companies viewpoint now... If they were happy with the profit margin that they had previously, then they should be happy with it now (even though their prices have gone down they are still making profit because wholesale prices have gone down too).

You're grossly oversimplifying. Your point might have some validity, if they were forcing people to stay in the €47.50 contract, and not allowing them the choice of migrating.

They are taking in more profits from their existing customers than they need to. This may not be legally wrong, but it's morally wrong.

Can you provide a detailed cashflow forecast that shows they don't "need" to charge as much as they do?

If UTV cared about their customers they would automatically pass the saving on. No questions asked.

They are passing the savings on - they're (understandably IMO) not rushing to pass them on to customers who are, in effect, expressing an unwillingness to enter into a longer-term business relationship.

People have talked about "loyalty" - past loyalty doesn't write any future cheques. The only measure of loyalty that's meaningful to a profit-making company is a willingness to enter into a binding contract.

It's bloody ridiculous that in a consumer orientated society companies like this exist...

Like what, exactly?

There really is no excuse for UTV's attitude IMO...

Seems to me the "attitude" is coming from the other side.

If they were confident in their service and feel they are providing a quality service then what do they have to fear? Trying to tie people into extending contracts is just wrong.

OK, one more time: everyone has a choice. Run out your existing contract, or avail of the free get-out option to a new contract.

If I was a UTV Internet subscriber then as soon as my contract ran out I would change to an alternate service provider out of principle even if UTV are the cheapest provider (provided you swictch CPS)...

Like I said to someone else earlier: it's your money.

I am trying my best not to rant away here, but I just can't express how disappointed I am in this seemingly promising Internet Service Provider... I find it ludicrous that there are people here with UTV Internet and are justifying the actions.

I find it ludicrous that you're not seeing the bigger picture: we're talking about a product that's a tenner cheaper than the competition.

It's exactly that sort of attitude that will make UTV feel that they can get away with it.

That's where we differ: I don't see that there's anything to get away with. I see a choice being offered, and people whinging about not being given both the cheapest broadband in the country and the choice of ditching the contract early.

Plain and simple for those of you who didn't read all the above:
UTV are over charging existing customers and don't give a toss unless you lock yourself into another contract with them. That is wrong.

Anyone who's being "overcharged" (i.e. paying the same as they've paid for the last several months) has the option of cutting their monthly costs by over a third. A commitment to staying with the service long enough to make it economically viable shouldn't be too much to ask in return.

PcP

Originally posted by Skanger
throttle to me is cutting back your speed outside of the contention system during peak hours or due to excessive downloading, to the best of my knowledge UTV never admitted to this practice.

Maybe you want to check up before you start posting. The connections were throttled so downloads only came down at max 18 KB/s. This took weeks to resolve and UTV did indeed admit there had been a throttle in place.

"but UTV's version was and still is alot more reliable then eircoms"

then

"I didn't claim that"

then

"UTV is more reliable then eircom, I can claim this as I've had both products."

Make up your mind ffs...

"Your problem is less to do with the new services and more to do with the fact you're not happy with the service."

I've been saying that all along ffs, read the thread. What part of "First off, let me make it clear that if I had a reliable connection this contract thing would not be an issue for me." did you not understand?

dub45

Maybe you want to check up before you start posting. The connections were throttled so downloads only came down at max 18 KB/s. This took weeks to resolve and UTV did indeed admit there had been a throttle in place.

Not alone that but the excuses they offered for the consistently bad speeds that users all over the country were reporting were unbelievably inept!!! i.e. the weather and line quality. It took a near mutiny on the part of users to get UTV to take some action.

I also doubt if in this first period of broadband any other ISP has had so many serious breaks in service - there is certainly no evidence here to that effect

Xcellor

Some seem to think I am not getting the full picture. But I disagree and say you are not getting the full picture. UTV demand you switch to CPS. This is something that none of the other companies do. The other companies give you a choice.

So while they offer the cheapest DSL they are also making money on your phonecalls. During your contract with UTV I would assume you cannot change CPS, so if you are a person who makes a lot of phone calls you will not be able to avail of any other low cost telecommunications that are coming out.

UTV like to tie their customers down... If you want to avail of cheaper prices you must agree to another 12 month contract for not only DSL but phone calls too... From looking at their call tariffs I am not surprised, yeah they are cheaper than Eircom but that is no great achievement (everyone is cheaper than eircom). Plus they charge "Setup fee" on all calls. Now from past experience this means that even if you don't get connected i.e person doesn't pick up you are still billed the 3 cent charge.

Open your eyes and see the real reason why UTV can charge 29 euros...

X

Atreides

Originally posted by PcP
Maybe you want to check up before you start posting. The connections were throttled so downloads only came down at max 18 KB/s. This took weeks to resolve and UTV did indeed admit there had been a throttle in place.

then
then
Make up your mind ffs...


I've been saying that all along ffs, read the thread. What part of "First off, let me make it clear that if I had a reliable connection this contract thing would not be an issue for me." did you not understand?

Originally posted by PcP
I had a reliable connection

I'm happy

Simple as that

no problems

bitch when some miss quotes you.

If i believe as you say, the trottle issue sound more like a fault with utc's network rather then a company policy. And since you seem unable to read my posts i'll summerise here for you.

UTV are more reliable then eircom in my experience, for a service which by its very nature is unreliable. Go to eircom, and see whats its like, then you will pine for the days of UTV. Their using the same lines, same exchanges, same equipment, how much more reliable do you think iol or eircom will be.

Atreides

Originally posted by Xcellor
Some seem to think I am not getting the full picture. But I disagree and say you are not getting the full picture. UTV demand you switch to CPS. This is something that none of the other companies do. The other companies give you a choice.

So while they offer the cheapest DSL they are also making money on your phonecalls. During your contract with UTV I would assume you cannot change CPS, so if you are a person who makes a lot of phone calls you will not be able to avail of any other low cost telecommunications that are coming out.

UTV like to tie their customers down... If you want to avail of cheaper prices you must agree to another 12 month contract for not only DSL but phone calls too... From looking at their call tariffs I am not surprised, yeah they are cheaper than Eircom but that is no great achievement (everyone is cheaper than eircom). Plus they charge "Setup fee" on all calls. Now from past experience this means that even if you don't get connected i.e person doesn't pick up you are still billed the 3 cent charge.

Open your eyes and see the real reason why UTV can charge 29 euros...

X

wow..thats really obvious and clear to everyone, really glad you're around.

dub45

Originally posted by Skanger


If i believe as you say, the trottle issue sound more like a fault with utc's network rather then a company policy. And since you seem unable to read my posts i'll summerise here for you.

UTV are more reliable then eircom in my experience, for a service which by its very nature is unreliable. Go to eircom, and see whats its like, then you will pine for the days of UTV. There using the same lines, same exchanges, same equipment, how much more reliable do you think iol or eircom will be.

Nobody is saying that the throttle was UTV policy - the problem is that it took them weeks to spot it in spite of the fact that it was blindingly obvious that something was seriously wrong with the speed that so many customers were getting and reporting to them.

No one is doubting your experience so why doubt ours? UTV have admitted that the failure of their own equipment caused at least two of the major weekend outages that we have experienced - other outages are documented in the UTV support group.

For instance there were two three hour outages recently (on a Saturday night and a Sunday anight) experienced by quite a few users and reported to UTV support. UTV on their own admission did not start investigating these breaks in service until the following Monday and on their own admission have not got a clue what caused them. I believe that it is this kind of thing that is giving people (who would have been previous very much pro UTV) reservations about signing up for a further 12 months.

When UTV users on here talk about reliablility they are not talking about fast speeds they are talking about the actual availability of the service. In general since the throttle issue was resolved speed has not been a major issue but reliability has become much more of an issue.

I also have concerns about UTV's willingness to put the necessary resources in place to deal with the inevitable extra demands which will be placed on them as a result of their sub €30 offering.

Xcellor

Originally posted by Skanger
wow..thats really obvious and clear to everyone, really glad you're around.

Sounds like a hint of sarcasm regarding the comment above. If that's so then read below. If not ignore it.

It seems like everyone is so impressed that UTV are charging €30, when in reality they are charging €30+ whatever they make out of your phone calls...

I apologise if I state things in basic terms. But I'm sure some people appreciate frank discussion even if you don't.

X

oscarBravo

Originally posted by dub45
Not alone that but the excuses they offered for the consistently bad speeds that users all over the country were reporting were unbelievably inept!!! i.e. the weather and line quality. It took a near mutiny on the part of users to get UTV to take some action.

Just to provide some balance to this: the throttling happened upstream. They never said whether it was Eircom or EsatBT who screwed them up, but whoever it was told them repeatedly that there was no throttle in place. Three weeks later, they said "oh whoops, silly us, we are throttling you." Given that there was no fault on their system, and their upstream swore blind there was no throttle, it's not that surprising they were looking at possible client-side issues.

Atreides

Ok see when people where talking about reliability I thought they ment speed, since I've never suffered an outage (well maybe I have and I just wasn't around). I have however recieved several warnings about possible outages due to repair work. If this your problem then by all means go with someone who may be more reliable in that sense.

Xcellor: your points are not frank, just repettition and kinda insulting in away with that open you're eyes comment. One would presume that nobody signed up for UTV without know they needed CPS, and what it meant. I'd go as far as to say UTV's service is a loss leader for the cps service. Don't quote me but, utv get about 66% of the revenue from calls, compare that to what they get for offering an adsl service.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Xcellor
Some seem to think I am not getting the full picture. But I disagree and say you are not getting the full picture. UTV demand you switch to CPS. This is something that none of the other companies do. The other companies give you a choice.

UTV give you a choice also: the choice of not signing up in the first place. It's not like the CPS requirement is something they spring on you after you sign up.

So while they offer the cheapest DSL they are also making money on your phonecalls. During your contract with UTV I would assume you cannot change CPS, so if you are a person who makes a lot of phone calls you will not be able to avail of any other low cost telecommunications that are coming out.

That's one of the factors you weigh up when choosing your provider. UTV's telephony product is saving me money. Granted, I could get cheaper elsewhere, but I'm happy with my UTVipXL and with the reduced rates I am getting.

UTV like to tie their customers down... If you want to avail of cheaper prices you must agree to another 12 month contract for not only DSL but phone calls too... From looking at their call tariffs I am not surprised, yeah they are cheaper than Eircom but that is no great achievement (everyone is cheaper than eircom). Plus they charge "Setup fee" on all calls. Now from past experience this means that even if you don't get connected i.e person doesn't pick up you are still billed the 3 cent charge.

You really ought to get your facts straight rather than making accusations based on "past experience". You are aware of Eircom's minimum call charge, right?

Open your eyes and see the real reason why UTV can charge 29 euros...

Um. Why should I care how they do it? They charge a tenner less than the competition, and offer reduced call rates. If you feel that you can save that tenner on CPS, then that's your prerogative - nobody's forcing anyone to sign up to UTV.

I'd suggest that their success to date is a good indication that most of their customers are quite happy with their business model.

It seems like everyone is so impressed that UTV are charging €30, when in reality they are charging €30+ whatever they make out of your phone calls...

That's just a blatant distortion. It might make sense if they required you to accept a CPS product that charged a premium on Eircom's rates.

dub45

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Just to provide some balance to this: the throttling happened upstream. They never said whether it was Eircom or EsatBT who screwed them up, but whoever it was told them repeatedly that there was no throttle in place. Three weeks later, they said "oh whoops, silly us, we are throttling you." Given that there was no fault on their system, and their upstream swore blind there was no throttle, it's not that surprising they were looking at possible client-side issues.

It may not be surprising to you but I think when a lot of people report a similar fault from all over the country it would seem very likely that there is a common feature at work not a client side one. And it is very reasonable to expect this to occur to people who are employed to solve such problems. It is also reasonable to expect UTV to check out the quality of service they are getting from their providers and not to put up with the silly explaintions which you quote so authoratively.

To blame a client side issue in such a situation is very poor problem solving and don't forget too that they were even suggesting that the weather might be at fault in one of the driest periods on record!

Blaming the client was not confined to the throttle they have also tried that with the recent proxy problem.

It is noticable too that some of Clicksilver's ardent supporters are people who do not actually use it!

dub45

Originally posted by Skanger
Ok see when people where talking about reliability I thought they ment speed, since I've never suffered an outage (well maybe I have and I just wasn't around). I have however recieved several warnings about possible outages due to repair work. If this your problem then by all means go with someone who may be more reliable in that sense.

I doubt if any of the contributors to the discussion who have raised the issue of UTV's reliablity are referring to maintenance outages.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by dub45
It may not be surprising to you but I think when a lot of people report a similar fault from all over the country it would seem very likely that there is a common feature at work not a client side one. And it is very reasonable to expect this to occur to people who are employed to solve such problems. It is also reasonable to expect UTV to check out the quality of service they are getting from their providers and not to put up with the silly explaintions which you quote so authoratively.

OK, put yourself in their situation: you've checked out your own network, and there's nothing there that could cause the problem. You've repeatedly asked your upstream to check for throttling, and they've repeatedly sworn blind that they've checked and double-checked, and that there's nothing wrong. What's your next step?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by dub45
It is noticable too that some of Clicksilver's ardent supporters are people who do not actually use it!

I'll assume you're referring to me.

Quote one line from one post in this thread that shows I'm an "ardent supporter" of Clicksilver. Go on, try. I'll be here.

Xcellor

This is going around in circles.

I don't like some of UTV's policies regarding existing customers.

I believe they ought to follow the lead of other providers.

They maybe the cheapest but they do require you to switch CPS.

In general they have poor pings.

Apart from that if you are happy with them, as some of you are that's great

Doesnt really matter what I think in that instance...

X

dub45

Originally posted by oscarBravo
OK, put yourself in their situation: you've checked out your own network, and there's nothing there that could cause the problem. You've repeatedly asked your upstream to check for throttling, and they've repeatedly sworn blind that they've checked and double-checked, and that there's nothing wrong. What's your next step?

|t certainly would not have been to tell so many customers that their line and/or the weather was at fault.

UTV employ people to solve such problems it was obvious to lots of people there was a common fault causing the problem. Several of those people suggested that there was a throttle somewhere. It was up to UTV to solve that problem - they quote themselves as provided unrivalled technical support. Surely they should have been able to establish that there was or was not a throttle in place technically by running some tests and not rely on the word of their providers? It surely would have been possible to connect one of their customers to eircom or iol and then to utv and see what the difference in speed was. I also would have thought that at the absolute maximum the evidence of such a throttle would appear to qualified support people within a week and not be allowed go on for so long. Was it just a coincidence that when the volume of complaints in the newsgroup reached a crescendo that the problem was suddenly solved?

And what does it say when they have tried the same lark with regards to the proxy problem particularly when it followed on directly from an admitted fault in their own equipment?

Atreides

Originally posted by dub45
I doubt if any of the contributors to the discussion who have raised the issue of UTV's reliablity are referring to maintenance outages.

Then what are you talking about.

PcP

Originally posted by Skanger
Ok see when people where talking about reliability I thought they ment speed, since I've never suffered an outage

One of the many assumptions you made throughout the course of the thread.

I didn't misquote you, go back and read the thread again.

I never said anything about the throttle being company policy, you assumed thats what I meant. It was a cockup, which as Paul has pointed out was caused by an upstream provider.

I never said I expected a 100% connection without problems. You assumed it and came out with that 'mystical magical reliable ISP' rubbish.

I very clearly stated I would have no problem with the contracts on the new deals if my connection wasn't so unreliable (which you very clearly overlooked).

When I spoke of reliability I thought I made it pretty clear that I was talking about complete outages and an unusable connection. From your response though, I guess not.

I purposefully stayed clear of all the other points being debated because frankly I'm not bothered by them. I'm happy with the cps and think it's a good deal. There's only the two of us here and I make about 2 euro worth of calls per month (but pick up the bill for the other 20 odd quid of calls a month )

I can't believe how much time I've wasted on this thread

Atreides

Originally posted by PcP
When I spoke of reliability I thought I made it pretty clear that I was talking about complete outages and an unusable connection:(

So you made an assumption rather then actually coming out and saying what your problem was. You talked about high pings and being throttled, its no wonder I thought it was a speed issue.

You banged on about throttling as if it was policy, if it was a cock up in the past then its hardly a reason to leave them now.

As for quotes to took part sentences and you took them out of context. You said you want a more reliable service and for the fourth time I'm asking you to name that service

I very clearly stated I would have no problem with the contracts on the new deals if my connection wasn't so unreliable (which you very clearly overlooked).

Well this thread is about UTV contracts, maybe presumptuous but I thought the discussion might be on topic.

PcP

Okay, I'll try one more time.

So you made an assumption rather then actually coming out and saying what your problem was. You talked about high pings and being throttled, its no wonder I thought it was a speed issue.

I did say what my problems were, in fact I broke it down into months just for you. I mentioned pings, throttle, problems connecting and completely dead connection/downtime. Obviously you must have missed it so here it is again:

"Connected end of September. First 5/6 weeks connection was throttled. Rang, mailed and posted to support group. Specifically told UTV on more than one occasion that my connection was throttled but it took weeks for them to even acknowledge there was a problem.
November - couple of weeks with no problems.
December - started having trouble connecting. Some nights when connected latency was off the scale making the connection unusable. The problems got worse throughout the month until it went down completely over the Christmas period.
January/February - more disconnections/downtime and still nights of unusable connection. At the least every second weekend these problems persisted.
March - more downtime (again at weekend) and the odd night of bad latency, not as bad as Jan/Feb admittedly."

You banged on about throttling as if it was policy, if it was a cock up in the past then its hardly a reason to leave them now.

I didn't bang on about throttling like it was policy. I said it was a problem which took weeks to sort out. Its not a reason to leave them now and I never claimed such. It was in my rundown of problems since I have been connected.

As for quotes to took part sentences and you took them out of context. You said you want a more reliable service and for the fourth time I'm asking you to name that service

Right, you say I misquoted, I think simply reading back through solves that one. You want me to name a more reliable service. I believe Eircom is more reliable and that was the point I was making when I said "I feckin hate Eircom but to say UTV is more reliable is talkin pure rubbish, Eircom keep the sweet spots for themselves." but you may have missed that too. The fact is that I signed up in September. Bearing in mind that its a 12 month contract we can deduce that I still have a few more months to get through on my current contract and as such I'm in no rush to pick another provider yet. To do that would be very foolish.

Well this thread is about UTV contracts, maybe presumptuous but I thought the discussion might be on topic.

Indeed. I stated that I would not sign another 12 contract because my connection was too unreliable. I would have been happy to leave it there but you decided to jump in with your 'mystical magical reliable ISP service?' rubbish.

k?

jonski

Originally posted by Skanger
UTV did not reduce the price of the old product or upgrade it, they disscontinued it, and offered to new adsl products, hardly seems unreasonable you would have to sign up for a new contract for a new product, now does it. Othe isps simply lower the price of there existing products.

Sorry for being stupid here , but they discontinued the old product ? I have to be reading this wrong . UTV did reduce the price of the old product surely .
Its still radsl 48:1 512/128 , just at a cheaper price and a new 12 month contract .

John.

jonski

Originally posted by Skanger
. UTV resell eircoms product, if your having all these problems don't presume it will be better with eircom. The Ping issue would very well be your line and your distance from the exchange, just because you may be close to the exchange doesn't mean your line takes the most direct route.

If you check the "broadband pings/ Download speeds" thread you will see that in fact UTV does have worse ping times that Eircom and Esat . They also seem to recently have developed a problem with pkt loss . Also they do not seem to be able to do anything to improve them . There is probably a good reason for it , because so many ppl have complained about it I rekon at this stage if they could fix it they would . It would seem to be outside their control .

John.

_Kaiser_

Sorry for being stupid here , but they discontinued the old product ? I have to be reading this wrong . UTV did reduce the price of the old product surely .
Its still radsl 48:1 512/128 , just at a cheaper price and a new 12 month contract .

John.

The reality is as you describe but by branding it as "new" it supports the whole idea of them insisting on a new contract etc - in fairness to UTV tho, they're not the only company to do this sorta thing... it's a bit like the "sub €30" pricetag that's again really a marketing tool - €29.99 IS (for all intents and purposes) €30!