Referenda on non-national births

gurramok

Just heard on TV3 news that there is to be a referenda on the automatic right to Irish citizenship to children born in Ireland of non-national parents.

They say its reckoned that 20-25% of all births in Dublin hospitals are to non-national parents.
What do people think and would vote on this, should there be an automatic right or not for citizenship to children of non-nationals ?
My view would be no as its being exploited to the full especially by asylum seekers to gain a foothold illegally in the country.

bonkey

I'm just waiting to see the Republicans gnashing their teeth if and when the people of the Irish Republic decide that being born on the island is no longer a sufficient qualification to being Irish

Perosnally, I think anyone born in the Republic should be entitled to citizenship, but I also believe that the parents are not entitled to citizenship, or even necessarily residency if they are non-national parents.

jc

Sparks

The good friday agreement said anyone born on the island of Ireland was entitled to Irish citizenship and we had a referendum on that. So "asked and answered" jumps to mind...

ishmael whale

Its true that we sometimes seem to get the same issue thrown at us in successive referenda until we supply the ‘right’ answer. The multiple referenda on divorce, abortion and more recently Nice are examples where it could have been said the people have made their decision, why question it. But I don’t think that applies in this situation. At the time I don’t recall the Good Friday Agreement being presented as having any crossover into the asylum issue. I don’t know if there even was that much of an asylum issue at that time. So it is right for this issue to be put to the people now.

On the one hand this loophole needs to be closed. On the other hand people who have lawfully entered the country and made their home here have a reasonable expectation that their children will be welcomed into our community. The idea floated, that if the amendment was carried the Dail would pass legislation granting children of non Nationals citizenship if one of their parents was legally living in the state for three years, sounds reasonable.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Sparks
The good friday agreement said anyone born on the island of Ireland was entitled to Irish citizenship and we had a referendum on that. So "asked and answered" jumps to mind...

It's a fair eonough point, bur I don't think anyone in the Island thought immigration had anything to do with it when they were voting for the GFA. This is a separate issue.

The fact that we are the only country in Europe where new-born immigrants are automatically entitled to citizenship will probably mean that it will be easily passed. I assume the rights of people born in Northern Ireland to become citizens of the Republic will be protected, so in that sense, it's been "asked and answered", and shouldn't change.

Sparks

Hmmmm. About those statistics McDowell is using...

RTE:

The Master of the Rotunda, Dr Michael Geary, has accused the Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, of 'exaggeration' when he stated that he and two colleagues requested a change in the law regarding non-nationals giving birth in Ireland.

Speaking on RTÉ Radio, Dr Geary said the three masters of the maternity hospitals presented the information and facts on the situations in their hospitals, but did not demand a change in the law.

Mr McDowell made the claim on RTÉ Radio this morning when explaining his reasoning for introducing a referendum aimed at eliminating the automatic right to citizenship of children born on the island of Ireland.

uberwolf

I'd imagine Dr. Geary wouldn't presume to make such a demand. I believe it is a loop hole that is being exploited and that the exploitation has to be ended. How this could be achieved I have no idea

DaithiSurfer

I believe the child has a right to citizenship, but the parents do not.
Any child born in Ireland is a citizen and the Irish people should not even attempt to cast off these babies. After all its not the babies choice where to be born is it?

I also believe that any illegal immigrant (be they asylum seekers or not) who has not come to Ireland legally in the first place should be deported if they get themselves pregnant (including the father) BEFORE they have been classed as legal.
They are attempting to abuse the system and should pay a price for this.
OK, so there may be some accidents, and thats another matter, but people would definitely make sure they didnt get pregnant until they were legal if they knew that it automatically get them deported.
Lets remember that they are only looking for a better life, but they should look for a better life withouth bringing babies into the world just for the purpose of getting that life.
Currently there is no deterrent for this type of abuse.

midget lord

Sparks, the good friday agreement was all fine and well, an entirely seperate matter compared to the proposed non-national referedum. Quite a lot of people voted for acceptance of the good friday as it was a step in the right direction in relation a permanent cessation of violence. Whether or not non-nationals giving birth in this country entitles their sibling to citizenship is a completely different matter and one that warrants a seperate referendum.

midget lord

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
Lets remember that they are only looking for a better life, but they should look for a better life withouth bringing babies into the world just for the purpose of getting that life.

So are you willing to let your paye pay for their up keep?

DaithiSurfer

Don't forget. My PAYE pays for your upkeep too.

The simple fact here is that without their babies most asylum seekers applications would be rejected anyway.
You just cant walk into a country and expect them to look after you without good cause. At the moment the good cause is that you have a baby born here.
If they even speeded up the process then that would give a lot of people a lot less time to have their babies here.
If they automatically deported a pregnant couple then there would be no incentive to have a baby while awaiting your application.
Problem solved. Only legit claims will be allowed to stay.

midget lord

My paye pays for your up-keep so. Dont be so unnecessarily argumentative and answer my question.

DaithiSurfer

I'm not bothered about my PAYE being used for peoples upkeep.
Thats what i pay it for.
Can you say that these people will never work???
Don't get me wrong, i would prefer if there werre no immigrants allowed, so i would have more jobs to choose from for myself, but it just doesnt work that way. If they have a legit right to stay then, so be it.
Do you mind the culchies coming up to dublin ?
I was on the dole for a year myself in the 90's.
I was glad of your PAYE then. Thanks by the way.
Just as you might be glad of it some day too.
We also pay for the upkeep of our grannies and grandads too you know.
Would you like to trake that away from them?

Mighty_Mouse

Another example of Michael "lunsatic" McDowell.

And ppl wonder how Hitler got so far!!! Even listening to this idiot is crazy.

Breeding hatred of refugees and asylum seekers is all he is doin!

midget lord

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
I'm not bothered about my PAYE being used for peoples upkeep.
Thats what i pay it for.
Can you say that these people will never work???

Your missing the point Daithi.

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
Don't get me wrong, i would prefer if there werre no immigrants allowed, so i would have more jobs to choose from for myself, but it just doesnt work that way. If they have a legit right to stay then, so be it.

Further proof that you are missing the point. Should they be allowed stay?

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
We also pay for the upkeep of our grannies and grandads too you know.
Would you like to trake that away from them?

Of course not, but then my gran is not a refugee.



The point of the matter here Daithi is whether or not the siblings of these asylum seekers should be given citizenship. Personally speaking i think the influx of asylum seekers into our counrty has made it a culturally richer counrty, but the problems is that if we continue to allow their siblings to become citizens we could be looking at even more of a "problem" then we have now. If we have to increase what the exchequer hands out to the social welfare every year we decrease what is being ditributed to other departments, as the tax is not increasing year on year. So, personally i would prefer to throw the money at improving our transportation, education and health systems, we all know they need it.

DaithiSurfer

You're missing the poiint i think.

Born in Ireland = Irish citizen.
Its their right, just like yours when you were born. Doesn't matter about where your parents were from. If you get knocked down and become a veg we'll still pay our PAYE to look after you. We'll even pay for the court system to make sure you don't get discriminated against.

Prevent people being born in Ireland to parents who are not legit and you go some way to solving the problems that you are talking about. But make no mistake here, there are some people who really need to be here.
Don't bunch them in with the other chancers (just like illegal irish in the US).

If Bertie decided to let you go on the run and every time he caught you he cut off a toe, it wouldn't be long before you are off to other countries saying - 'Please, let me in. i cant go back to my own country. I've no toes left and god knows whats next'

Extreme example i know but it makes the point i think.

ishmael whale

The present situation contributes to a climate of hostility towards non-Nationals by creating the impression among many people that they are all in some way screwing the system. This is despite the fact that the majority of non-Nationals who have come to Ireland in recent years are simply people on work permits who have no connection to the asylum issue at all.

Its important that this debate is conducted rationally. Comparisons to Nazis are simply wrong, and introduces a race issue where there is none. I am not aware of anyone suggesting that this law should discriminate on grounds of race. To suggest otherwise is simply a smear to distract from the main issue.

pork99

Personally I think any immigrant who comes here, works, pays their taxes and abides by the law continously for a period of 3 years should get citizenship, should simply be handed a passport (also applies to their kids).

Anyone who comes here to beg and/or steal -> sent straight back where they came from (also their kids).

I think this referendum is a red herring - "we couldnt be arsed to come up with a well thought out cohesive policy on immigration - lets have a b.s. referendum an an irrelevant question to cover up for that"

Imposter

I'd prefer to see a referendum (if that's what's neccessry) on something that would completely clear up all abuses of the welfare system whether perpetrated by Irish or foreign nationals. If that needs to be combined with a new Asylum policy then so be it.

A child that's born in Ireland is Irish but the parents shouldn't automatically obtain any extra rights as a result of the birth imo.

DaithiSurfer

I agree, it shouldn't be a race issue, but lets face it - most people talking about taking citezenship away from babies born here are taking about non-white children, whether they say it or not. Asylum seekers etc may someday work, so you can't say that we will be looking after them all. Some yes, but some irish people are in the same situation.

The problem i see is that babies are being used as leverage.
This happens in the UK where some people find it quirte profitable to have lots of children just for the benefits. more money, bigger council house etc.
It happens among Irish people too but since its so hard to get anything from the Govt anyway its not as profitable.

This is not right and should be stopped, but not at the cost to the rights of those (from whatever parents) born in Ireland.

seamus

Originally posted by pork99
Personally I think any immigrant who comes here, works, pays their taxes and abides by the law continously for a period of 3 years should get citizenship, should simply be handed a passport (also applies to their kids).

I would tend to agree, although I wouldn't be as liberal, especially in terms of crime. I'd say 5 years with a 15-year 'no crime' stipulation (excluding minor traffic offences naturally).

Anyone who comes here to beg and/or steal -> sent straight back where they came from (also their kids).

I'd give them to option to take the child with them or leave it here to be put into foster care. No point punishing a child because his/her parents are morons. Any child left here before they're 14 is given provisional citizenship until they're 18 when they can apply for full citizenship.

That would be part of my plan

midget lord

An african mother, pregnant, in a war torn country, broke, wants a better life for her kid. She hears that if you go over to ireland and have your kid there the kid will be an irish citizen. So she gets over here and has her kid, walla - a better life for the kid.

Is it just me or does anyone else see a problem with this?

pdh

I agree that the law should be changed. A lot of people who have posted here are a bit confused about Nationality laws, been born in a stable does not make you a horse and so just because your born in Ireland does not make you Irish.

Also it would be good to see any new nationality laws brought in made retrospective so that current mess can be cleared up.

Personally I blame Sinn Fein and the GFA for this, its about time that the government has seen the light and are now responding to the public mood out there on this issue.

seamus

Originally posted by midget lord
An african mother, pregnant, in a war torn country, broke, wants a better life for her kid. She hears that if you go over to ireland and have your kid there the kid will be an irish citizen. So she gets over here and has her kid, walla - a better life for the kid.

Is it just me or does anyone else see a problem with this?

Of course. But why shouldn't the child be granted citizenship? Why should the child be forced to endure poverty and war simply because that's the hand they've been dealt. As I say above, I don't have a problem with somebody leaving their child in the care of our state, citizen or otherwise, because they want a better life for the child. The problem is when the child is used as a pawn in exploiting our laws. I'm pretty sure there are other loopholes that could be closed or regulations put in place without taking this drastic action.

pork99

Originally posted by seamus
I would tend to agree, although I wouldn't be as liberal, especially in terms of crime. I'd say 5 years with a 15-year 'no crime' stipulation (excluding minor traffic offences naturally).

I would still say 3 years because, in my experience, migrants who come here to work tend to be well educated, law abiding and hard working. They're exactly the sort of people we want to encourage to come here, so the 3 years in most cases should be just a formality.

If only we could send a few of our own home-grown liabilities the other way now!

midget lord

Of course it will be better for the kid to be raised in Ireland and all that. But are we the only counrty that can offer the kid a better standard of life? Of course not. The reason they are coming over here and doing this is because we are among a minority that will allow the kid to become a citizen just because it is born here. Now that is a problem, because if this referendum allows them to do this we will have a serious problem. In most countries it take 7 years to become a citizen, we should do the same.

ishmael whale

It would be possible to get into a Dutch auction over the timespan. Let me say that I have no problem with citizenship being given to children born to a parent with three years or, for that matter, two years of legal residence. The issue is really the present situation of conferring citizenship where people have entered the state illegally.

Redleslie

Originally posted by pdh
just because your born in Ireland does not make you Irish.

Oh yes it does. The Department Of Justice says so. What have you got? Point out exactly what people born here must do in order to "prove" their Irishness. Anyway, I bet I'm more Irish than you are, because I say so. So get out.

Sparks

Originally posted by midget lord
Is it just me or does anyone else see a problem with this?

Yeah, I have a problem with it - she doesn't get to stay in the country afterwards.

Tell me something midget, in all this worrying about PAYE expenditure, did you pause to consider that given the demographics of this country, we desperately need immigration to prevent PAYE tax having to skyrocket in the next few decades just to cover pensions and healthcare for the aging workforce?

Johnmb

And we have immigration. It should be controlled. The Government have done a piss-poor job of controlling it up to now, hopefully that will change.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Johnmb
And we have immigration. It should be controlled. The Government have done a piss-poor job of controlling it up to now, hopefully that will change.

By having this referendum?
I don't see why the nationality of a child's parents should come in question, if the child is born here they have as much right to call themselves/be Irish citizens as I do. But that's my opinion.
I don't see how it will do anything about illegal immigration or deportations.
A Czech family last year were set to be deported even though their child was born here (only links I have are ireland.com links), and the Supreme Court did rule that having an Irish child did not mean the parents had a right to stay here.