Referenda on non-national births

Villain

"Well if thats the law, the laws an ass"


Sorry just always wanted to say that

Johnmb

Originally posted by Victor
A loophole has no legal basis. The courts position is the law is the law, if the Oireachtas wanted it any different that would have made it different.

Loopholes do have legal basis, that's why they have to be closed. When someone takes advantage of a loophole in a law, it is not enough for the minister's to say that it not what the law intended, they have to change/add to it in order to stop people taking advantage of it. Granting automatic citizenship rights to any foreigners other than the Northern Irish was not what was intended by the referendum in 98, therefore it is a loophole that needs to be closed via another referendum.

Victor

Originally posted by Johnmb
Loopholes do have legal basis, that's why they have to be closed. When someone takes advantage of a loophole in a law,

It is purely political (an moral etc.), not legal. I could say self declaration of tax is a loop hole because it allows people evade tax.

Originally posted by Johnmb
Granting automatic citizenship rights to any foreigners other than the Northern Irish was not what was intended by the referendum in 98, therefore it is a loophole that needs to be closed via another referendum.

If that was so, why did it include a bit about people born in Irish waters

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
I also believe that any illegal immigrant (be they asylum seekers or not) who has not come to Ireland legally in the first place should be deported if they get themselves pregnant (including the father) BEFORE they have been classed as legal.

But this would breach international law on refugees.

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
The simple fact here is that without their babies most asylum seekers applications would be rejected anyway.

Asylum applications are dealt on their merits. Leave to remain applications are also dealt on their merits. If their is any loophole, it is that the applications aren't processed properly.

Johnmb

Originally posted by Victor
If that was so, why did it include a bit about people born in Irish waters

Most likely to cover any badly timed ferry crossings. One thing I do know is that in the whole run up to the referendum the only people that were supposed to benefit from the citizenship clause were the Northern Irish. Nobody else was mentioned (we were just taken for granted), and if they had been that might very well have changed the outcome. It would certainly have made me think twice about it (although I was mainly glad to get rid of the old versions of the Articles, so I might have decided it was a sacrifice worth making, much like voting for the Nice Treaty even though it added a neutrality clause that I didn't agree with).

Victor

Originally posted by Johnmb
Most likely to cover any badly timed ferry crossings.

No, much more than that. Potentially you would have babies with no nationality that were born in international or coastal waters.

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
Don't get me wrong, i would prefer if there werre no immigrants allowed, so i would have more jobs to choose from for myself, but it just doesnt work that way.

But you would actually have less choice, because companies wouldn't set up here if there wasn't a steady stream of employees (at all levels).

Johnmb

Originally posted by Victor
No, much more than that. Potentially you would have babies with no nationality that were born in international or coastal waters.

You still could, as only Irish waters were covered. Although most countries give citizenship to the children of their citizens regardless as to where they were born.

Victor

Originally posted by Johnmb
You still could, as only Irish waters were covered.

The constitution delegates some rights to the Oireachtas on this and anyone born on a ship arriving in Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship, if the parents so wish.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/2720434?view=Eircomnet

Fears voiced over 'race card' in elections
From:ireland.com
Friday, 12th March, 2004

Seanad Report: Government and opposition members expressed concern about the possibility of the "race card" being used by some election candidates if the proposed referendum on the restricting of citizenship for children born to non-nationals here was to be held at the same time as the European and the local elections. Jimmy Walsh reports.

Mr John Minihan (PD) warned that if the justification and the need for this referendum were not fully explained, we would be in danger of revisiting the scandalous racist comments that surfaced during the last general election.

Mr Terry Leyden (FF) said he had told the Minister for Justice it would be wrong to hold the referendum on June 11th because it would confuse the issue with the elections. He said further confusion would be caused in terms of electronic voting.

Mr David Norris (Ind) said he had consistently supported the rights of asylum-seekers, but he did not think it was a good human thing for people to put their unborn children at risk by flying into this country when they were almost in labour.

Mr Brendan Ryan (Labour) said he wondered if there was a coincidence of timing between the proposed referendum and the elections. If there was a connection it would be a desperately cynical thing for the Government to do. Whatever problem was said to exist, it should be addressed calmly and dispassionately.

The Leader of the House, Mrs Mary O'Rourke, said the Minister for Justice did not appear to say that the referendum would be coupled with the elections. Mr Minihan had made a passionate appeal about not using it as a race card that was coupled with the elections. But that would be thrown to the wind if the referendum was held on June 11th. "People would just get inflamed with their ambitions for being elected."

Cork

Hopefully, the referendum will not be on June 11th.

The opposition partys need some time to figure out where they stand on this one.

I think it is about time that the government sortred this one out.

In you were born in the US - it does not give citizenship to your parents.

It is about time Ireland adapted international practices with regard to this.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
In you were born in the US - it does not give citizenship to your parents.

Irrelevant - it doesn't happen here either.

Originally posted by Cork
It is about time Ireland adapted international practices with regard to this.

But which ones?

antrophy

Coalition to be set up
by Residents Against Racism - RAR Saturday, Mar 13 2004, 4:09pm
residentsagainstracsim@eircom.net address: 12a Brunswick place, Dublin 2 phone: 087 7974622 or 087 6662060
national / rights and freedoms / news report



A meeting will take place 27th March at 1 o'clock in the Teachers Club Parnell square. The meeting will be a national organisational meeting for a coalition opposing McDowells referendum. All individuals and groups are welcome. It is essential that big numbers attend to oppose McDowell and his neo nazi plans
Residents Against Racism
c/o 12a Brunswick place,
Dublin 2
residentsagainstracism@eircom.net
Press release 13/3/04

Coalition against McDowells proposed referendum to be set up

It was announced on Saturday 13th of March that a meeting will take place on Saturday 27th March in the Teachers club Dublin to set up a coalition to oppose McDowells proposed referendum. The meeting, which is being called by Residents Against Racism, is a national organisational open to all groups and individuals who oppose the referendum. Group spokesperson Mark Grehan said "It smacks of utter irony that next Wednesday on St. Patricks day the vast majority of Ministers and Junior Ministers will be spread all around the world in countries where there are Irish Diaspora, while at home they are proposing a referendum that will deprive some of the nations children of citizenship due to their ethnic origin. The very fact that Ministers will be on official visits to other countries for St. Patricks shows the impact that immigrants can have on their new homes. Yet this government continues to ignore the Irish emigrant's experiences and instead greets immigrants with nothing but intolerance and misunderstanding. This referendum will put out a message to the international community that we are a nation of emigrants that have rejected immigrants".

Mark Grehan continued by saying "The holding of this referendum at the same time as the local elections will make race an election issue. The two government parties have both signed up to the Anti Racism Protocol yet this referendum will attempt to discriminate due to children's ethnic origins. The government parties are expecting to lose a substantial amount of local and European seats in the elections, by running the referendum at the same time as the elections the government parties are hoping to scapegoat a certain portion of the population for their failed policies. This government has been nothing but a calamity for the country and its inhabitants. Both the health and education sectors are under attack, and the cost of housing has continued to soar. The blame lies with the government and their failed policies. The electorate will not be fooled at the governments attempt and will see this as their vile attempt to maintain power at all costs, even if that means using racism in their attempt."

Pointing out that the neo-Nazi group NSRUS had several years ago proposed a referendum along similar lines Mark continued by saying "The referendum will be an opportunity for extreme right wing groups to gain a foothold in Irish politics. Extremists will be delighted at this referendum, they have for several years been attempting to garner popular support and now this referendum has fallen at their feet. In the same week that Minister McDowell called another political party Nazi's, McDowell proposes a referendum along lines that they were demanding. This referendum will foster racism, extremism, hate and will end up showing the scant regard for human rights that the Government has, and continues to show."


For Further information Please call

Mark Grehan 087 797 4622
Roseanna Flynn 087 666 2060

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63827

LegacyUser

neither the child nor the parents should be given citizenship, the child should be taken into care for 5 years while the parents are jailed for 5 years, and then they should all be sent back to where they came from, only scum of the highest order would use their children like that, if they have fair claim to refuge then they should claim it and be welcomed here, but bringin a kid into the world as a pawn is vile

ishmael whale

Originally posted by antrophy
they are proposing a referendum that will deprive some of the nations children of citizenship due to their ethnic origin.

Which is of course not what is proposed at all.

Originally posted by antrophy
The referendum will be an opportunity for extreme right wing groups to gain a foothold in Irish politics.

It actually seems to be providing an opportunity for left wing groups to grandstand and sloganeer.

Its always easiest to destroy a straw man.

Sparks

From BreakingNews.ie:

A date for the Government’s controversial referendum on citizenship rights could be announced later this evening. Ministers are believed to have discussed the issue at their weekly cabinet meeting this morning.
The discussion is believed to have centred on whether the referendum should he held in conjunction with the local and European elections on June 11 and whether the wording of the proposed amendment would be ready by then.

dathi1

Coalition to be set up by Residents Against Racism - RAR Saturday, Mar 13 2004, 4:09pm residentsagainstracsim@eircom.net address: 12a Brunswick place, Dublin 2 phone: 087 7974622 or 087 6662060national / rights and freedoms / news report

This crowd need to be brought to task. I'm fed up with refugee quangos regurgitation how "racist" we all are. You're a thought criminal if you think that illegal immigration should be controlled. You're a thought criminal if you don't accept open borders...and you're racist too just for good measure. The problem with a lot of these neo liberal Dublin 4 montrose / SWP hacks is that they're afraid of the 90% mandate that will be exercised if such a referendum takes place.

Matt Simis

Just a quick question: Is there a EU directive or guideline on this matter?
Right to citizenship is surely a matter that should be implemented in a similar manner across Europe..?


Matt

Victor

Originally posted by Matt Simis
Right to citizenship is surely a matter that should be implemented in a similar manner across Europe..?

Is that EU citizenship or Irish citizenship?

It would be interesting to know how the parties feel the timing of the referendum will affect their chances in the various elections, looks like the PDs want is in June, FF in November (immigrants with votes might actually vote for them, but holding the referendum in June could alienate them).http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/2870289?view=Eircomnet

Cabinet fails to agree on date for referendum
From:The Irish Independent
Wednesday, 24th March, 2004

A PROPOSED referendum on non-national citizenship is unlikely to be held in conjunction with the local and European elections in June after the Cabinet failed to agree a date yesterday.

Tanaiste Mary Harney told the Dail there was now a view that it "makes more sense" to hold the referendum on the birthrights of non-nationals at the time of the presidential election in the autumn, should one be held.

The failure to reach a decision means the issue is set to slide past the June 11 date for the local and European polls. Labour leader Pat Rabbitte claimed yesterday that a team of US consultants had been employed by Fianna Fail to identify electoral issues.

He said that findings showed immigration was a concern with the public that ranked 17 points ahead of the next most sensitive area, health. Fianna Fail last night denounced the claim as "lies".

A spokeswoman said the party had no dealings with any such American company. "It is an outrageous charge and absolutely untrue," she said.

Ms Harney said the situation in relation to non-nationals arriving to give birth in Ireland amounted to a clear abuse of the system.

Non-nationals account for 22pc of births in the four Dublin maternity hospitals and if the pressure on resources continues, an entirely new maternity hospital in the capital will need to be built and equipped, she said.

Ms Harney added that racism was always entirely unacceptable and she said she hoped that the forthcoming election campaigns would be conducted in a "proper manner".

The Cabinet also decided yesterday to publish a bill to allow for the roll-out of electronic voting across all 42 constituencies in June.

The legislation is expected within the next seven days.

Senan Molony Political Correspondent

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/2870063?view=Eircomnet

Rabbitte stands over criticism of immigrant poll
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 24th March, 2004

The Labour Party leader last night stood over his claim that the Government was pursuing a citizenship referendum because Fianna Fáil's voter research had identified immigration as a major election issue.

Fianna Fáil's official spokeswoman accused Mr Pat Rabbitte of "absolute fabrication" after he said in the Dáil that voter research by US consultants engaged by Fianna Fáil placed immigration "17 points ahead of health" as an election issue.

Labour's official spokesman expressed surprise at the stance adopted by the Fianna Fáil spokeswoman and said Mr Rabbitte was standing by his remarks.

The Fianna Fáil spokeswoman said: "We carry out research from time to time. This issue has not been highlighted in our research."

She said she was absolutely certain about that.

While Fianna Fáil has been a client of the US consultancy Shrum Devine & Donnelly, the spokeswoman said, the party had not engaged any US consultancy to carry out voter research for it.

The two parties clashed after the Tánaiste, Ms Harney, said no date had been set for the referendum but indicated a preference for conducting the poll on the same day as the local and European election on June 11th.

"Many would be of the view that we are having an election anyway, and it makes more sense to have it on that occasion than to have it during the presidential election, if there is one," she said.

While Ms Harney had no doubt that the referendum would wtir up "undesirable feelings", she said there was an onus on all politicians to ensure "racism does not take hold in Ireland to ensure that the campaign is conducted to the highest possible standards".

The Cabinet discussed the referendum at its weekly meeting yesterday, but a Government spokesman said he did not know whether there was agreement on the detail of proposal to be put before voters.

Mr Rabbitte sought to shift the focus of the debate to claims by the masters of the Dublin maternity hospitals that they were being made "scapegoats" for the Government decision to seek a referendum. Ms Harney said she was not certain what had happened at a meeting between the masters and the Minister for Justice, Mr McDowell.

Mr McDowell has said the masters "pleaded" with him for Government action to do something about the large numbers of foreign nationals presenting late in their pregnancies to give birth in Ireland.

The masters subsequently denied that they had sought any constitutional or legislative change.

Ms Harney said yesterday: "I doubt very much if the masters would have come to it looking for changes in legislation, but I know from private discussions with people working in the maternity hospitals in Dublin that there is enormous concern about what is happening."

She said the masters had raised the issues and maintained that something needed to be done.

A social policy that could target those who are completely innocent; William Binchy: page 16

girliewoman

I AM THRILLED THAT THE YES VOTE HAS GONE THROUGH, ITS ABOUT TIME THAT US IRISH PEOPLE HAD OUR REAL SAY, IM SICK TO THE TEETH OF THESE SO CALLED REFUGEES, WHY SHOULDNT WE SAY IF WE WANT THESE AS IRISH CITIZENS OR NOT, THEY ARE MORE RACISTS THAN US IRISH, THEY GET EVERYTHING PAID FOR, WHILE THEY SIT ON THEIR ARSES IN THEIR SOCIAL WELFARE PAID CARS, DO NOTHING BUT SCROUNGING, WHY SHOULDNT THEY APPLY FOR CITIZENSHIP LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, IF YOU WERE TO GO TO AUSTRALIA YOUD HAVE TO SHOW PROOF OF MONEY UPFRONT, WHY CANT THEY PAY FOR AND WORK LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, I HAVE SEEN FIRST HAND WHAT THESE REFUGEES ARE ABOUT, ITS A DISGRACE TO THINK THAT THERE IS IRISH PEOPLE SUFFERING IN RUNDOWN HOUSING AND THE LIKES OF THESE GET LUXURY HOUSES AND APARTMENTS PAID FOR, ITS A DISGRACE, I VOTED YES TO THIS REFERENDUM LIKE MANY MANY OTHERS JUST LOOK AT THE SATISTICS.I SAY SHIP THEM OUT ASAP, THEY MAKE OUR PROBLEMS IN THE HEALTH AND SCHOOLING WORSE. PEOPLE ARE SICK TO DEATH OF THIS LOT. THEY HAVE TAKEN OVER OUR SCHOOLS OR HEALTH CENTRES OUR HOSPITALS,
MORE REFERENDUMS PLEASE, THESE PEOPLE WILL BE GONE IN THE FUTURE.

pete

YOU TYPE LIKE A NIGERIAN

2/10 for the trolling, incidentally

sceptre

Originally posted by girliewoman
I AM THRILLED THAT THE YES VOTE HAS GONE THROUGH, ITS ABOUT TIME THAT US IRISH PEOPLE HAD OUR REAL SAY, IM SICK TO THE TEETH OF THESE SO CALLED REFUGEES, WHY SHOULDNT WE SAY IF WE WANT THESE AS IRISH CITIZENS OR NOT, THEY ARE MORE RACISTS THAN US IRISH, THEY GET EVERYTHING PAID FOR, WHILE THEY SIT ON THEIR ARSES IN THEIR SOCIAL WELFARE PAID CARS, DO NOTHING BUT SCROUNGING, WHY SHOULDNT THEY APPLY FOR CITIZENSHIP LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, IF YOU WERE TO GO TO AUSTRALIA YOUD HAVE TO SHOW PROOF OF MONEY UPFRONT, WHY CANT THEY PAY FOR AND WORK LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, I HAVE SEEN FIRST HAND WHAT THESE REFUGEES ARE ABOUT, ITS A DISGRACE TO THINK THAT THERE IS IRISH PEOPLE SUFFERING IN RUNDOWN HOUSING AND THE LIKES OF THESE GET LUXURY HOUSES AND APARTMENTS PAID FOR, ITS A DISGRACE, I VOTED YES TO THIS REFERENDUM LIKE MANY MANY OTHERS JUST LOOK AT THE SATISTICS.I SAY SHIP THEM OUT ASAP, THEY MAKE OUR PROBLEMS IN THE HEALTH AND SCHOOLING WORSE. PEOPLE ARE SICK TO DEATH OF THIS LOT. THEY HAVE TAKEN OVER OUR SCHOOLS OR HEALTH CENTRES OUR HOSPITALS,
MORE REFERENDUMS PLEASE, THESE PEOPLE WILL BE GONE IN THE FUTURE.

GREETINGS FRIEND, I REALISE WE HAVE NEVER MET BUT I AM SURE MY BUSINES PROPOSAL WILL INTEREST YOU. I AM MASA MANATUBI THE FORMER BUSINESS PARTNER IF THE EX PRESIDENT OF MOZAMBIQUE. BEFORE HIDING IN DRUMCONDRA DUE TO A MUCH REVILED COUP IN MY HOME COUNTRY HE HID THE SUM OF THIRTY MILLION DOLLARS IN A SWISS BANK ACCOUNT. SHOULD YOU WISH TO ENABLE MY UNCOVERING OF THIS MONEY YOUR FEE WILL BE TWENTY PERCENT


Obviously I found the above hard to read. I got a good laugh out of the "SOCIAL WELFARE PAID CARS" though.

Bah, I see pete got in there before me

Victor

So girliewoman, how does this refendum make one house available to homeless people?

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by girliewoman
I VOTED YES TO THIS REFERENDUM LIKE MANY MANY OTHERS JUST LOOK AT THE SATISTICS.

Want to share the statistics with us?

THEY MAKE OUR PROBLEMS IN THE HEALTH AND SCHOOLING WORSE

So it's "their" fault you can't operate a keyboard, or speak English properly?