Bomb attack in Madrid

martarg

I have been reading a few of your messages on this morning's train bombing, and I cannot help but feel that the reality of Basque terrorism in Spain is far more complex than it appears to be perceived abroad. As a Spaniard I wish with all my heart that this morning's brutality would make those beasts lose popular favour in the Basque country and bring the solution a little closer, but things are a little more complicated than that. Attitude to Basque terrorism usually becomes intermingled with a whole series of political sub-issues, and sadly, until we learn to separate them, terrorists will succeed in dividing democratic parties as they have always tried to do whenever they plant a bomb or shoot a politician.

Unfortunately whenever something like that happens in this country, the next step is for political parties to jump at each other's throats, the conservative government reproaching the rest of political parties for their indifference, and the others by accusing the government of taking political advantage of terrorist attacks, and refusing to issue an outright and unqualified condemnation, because either they share their goals in the case of nationalist parties, or would rather die than being seen to agree with the government on anything whatever. Everybody will claim they are sorry for all these horrible deaths, and then go on to attack their political opponents.

martarg

How on earth can you justify any terrorist attack whatever on the grounds that we must have done something to deserve it?

For the rest, I am afraid you have been misinformed on that five-year sentence for "advocating independence by peaceful means" (???) The only "nationalist" crime that can put you in trouble with Spanish Justice, apart from terrorist activities themselves, is "apology of terrorism". If you are referring to Javier Atucha's predicament, that has only to do with the fact that he is defying the law and refusing to proceed with the banning of the terrorists' political wing from the basque parliament. Unfortunately for him, he is invoking powers he still doesn't have, and defying a judicial order. I suppose any country's judicial system would have to enforce its own mandates....

Sand

I cant think of a worse terrorist attack on European soil since WW2 to be honest [EDIT] Now that I think of it, a lot of the killings in the former Yugoslavia could be considered terrorist attacks as well as being war crimes [EDIT]. Its too early to say whose to blame thought the prime suspects will be ETA ( Theyre hardly going to crow about this atrocity - even they must be clever enough to recognise its a PR disaster if they did it ) and of course Al-Queda/Islamic terrorists. The timing of the attack in relation to the elections may or may not be coincidental. Certainly attacking the trains at rush hour indicates a real and murderous desire to kill as absolutely many people as possible. Personally, to me this makes me think ETA is less likely to be responsible as they have *mostly* restricted themselves to targeting politicans/police/military and have apparently a habit of giving warnings. For an organisation with a politcal wing an attack like this is the supidest thing they could do - only their most dyed in the wool supporters could stand behind it. According to some expert they had on the radio there, there is apparently a schism of sort in the ETA movement over future direction. It could be an ultra-violent dissident faction, much as the RIRA operated.

But like I said, I find it more likely its Islamic fundamentalists, punishing Spain for supporting the US, for providing troops in Iraq and generally being part of the coalition of the willing. If thats the way it plays out then it will be interesting to see if it will either lead to pressure on the Spanish government to pull out of the coalition, or if it will toughen Spanish support - much as the blitz did more to boost the defiance of the British rather than subdue it.

And will it encourage the EU to get even stronger against terrorist groups and cells inside the EU? If it is Al-Queda or some buddy group of it then Ground Zero will have shifted from NY to Madrid. How will Spain and the EU react to this unprecedented terrorist attack? Several EU nations are already part of the coalition of the willing, so theyre likely to restrict any reaction to simply defensive security measures and possible deportation of people even suspected of terrorist links ( unlikely but possible )

Playing devils advocate here a bit, but Im surprised were not hearing more about "oppression" the Spanish government have inflicted and "understanding" the terrorists (sorry, freedom fighters forced to take desperate measure due to their desperate standard of living) who were behind the attacks. What happened today is no different to any other terrorist attack - some groups just have better PR. ETA have better PR than Al-Queda, and other groups have aligned themselves as every activists favourite "desperate freedom fighters against the oppressive state" organisation.

Senor_Fudge

I wonder is it merely a coincidence that Spain was/is George Bush's closest ally in Europe after Tony Blair? Was it only a matter of time before a serious strike was made in Spain using the conduit of an existing local terrorist group?

well since thats the case it makes sense it was only a matter of time before something happened. In my opinion they all got off very light regards the futile war in iraq. Maybe its pay back time or perhaps it was a botched job , why would they kill so many people? Were there officials among them (hardly on a train in spain)

Sparks

Originally posted by Senor_Fudge
well since thats the case it makes sense it was only a matter of time before something happened. In my opinion they all got off very light regards the futile war in iraq. Maybe its pay back time or perhaps it was a botched job , why would they kill so many people? Were there officials among them (hardly on a train in spain)

You'd better hope that you're incorrect - we're on the list of people in the EU who helped the US, and unlike spain, we don't have the budget for large-scale counter-terrorist operations, and you don't want to give McDowell that kind of excuse. He'd make Bush's rolling back of civil liberties in the US look like naptime in kindergarden.

geezup

Death toll at 173 with 898 injured ...

It's been confirmed by the Spanish goverment it's been ETA again.... they already tried the same back on Christmas Eve.

Being Spanish myself, i just can say it's a really sad day, and i just don't understand why... why would they kill normal people.... students, workers.... what for ? Its just unbelievable how mean a human being can be.

So far everybody i know is fine, but i'm still missing news from a few friends.

geezup

even more bad news (officially confirmed)

186 dead and more than 1000 injured ...

shotamoose

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Incidentally I find it sickening that he uses the term "Arab resistance".

Which bit do you find sickening, the 'Arab' bit or the 'resistance' bit?

Originally posted by pdh
Its very sad that this has happened, however if it does turn out that ETA were responsible, then I can’t help thinking that the PP government also share some blame.

Originally posted by Reefbreak
typical pro-terrorist rhetoric, try and spread the blame around, on anyone other than the terrorists themselves.

Jesus Reefbreak, did you even read what he said?? He said 'share some of the blame', not 'take all the blame away from those immediately responsible'.

Originally posted by Sand
Im surprised were not hearing more about "oppression" the Spanish government have inflicted and "understanding" the terrorists (sorry, freedom fighters forced to take desperate measure due to their desperate standard of living) who were behind the attacks. What happened today is no different to any other terrorist attack - some groups just have better PR. ETA have better PR than Al-Queda, and other groups have aligned themselves as every activists favourite "desperate freedom fighters against the oppressive state" organisation.

Yes, let's take this opportunity to quash any attempt to understand either terrorism or any anti-state force. And to make sure nobody ever tries such a thing, let's always make sure to put "oppression" and "understanding" in quotation marks, since those words should never, ever be taken seriously. And let's accuse anyone who criticises this of being soft on terrorism, whatever they actually say or think about the subject.

shotamoose

Originally posted by geezup

It's been confirmed by the Spanish goverment it's been ETA again.... they already tried the same back on Christmas Eve.

But how can they know this? Was there any warning, has anyone claimed responsibility? It seems to me that they're rushing to judgement a bit.

Being Spanish myself, i just can say it's a really sad day, and i just don't understand why... why would they kill normal people.... students, workers.... what for ? Its just unbelievable how mean a human being can be.

Indeed it is. Hope you hear from your friends soon.

Redleslie

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Have the IRA supplied training to ETA?
And if they have, then those Irish people that support the IRA are in some way complicit in the tragedy.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
typical pro-terrorist rhetoric, try and spread the blame around, on anyone other than the terrorists themselves.

Does anyone else see an interesting example of moronic hypocritical knee jerkism at play here? Using this outrageous atrocity as an excuse to get on a high horse and have a go at republicans or any other local political bogeymen is pretty bloody disgusting imo.


My sympathies to any Spanish person reading this or anyone who has friends in Madrid.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Redleslie
Does anyone else see an interesting example of moronic hypocritical knee jerkism at play here? Using this outrageous atrocity as an excuse to get on a high horse and have a go at republicans or any other local political bogeymen is pretty bloody disgusting imo.

My sympathies to any Spanish person reading this or anyone who has friends in Madrid.

I make no apology for any of my statements. One of the most savagely brutal terrorist attacks ever seen in Europe has been committed today. In all likelyhood, it was done by ETA. I believe ETA and their political wing Batasuna had delegates attending the Sinn Féin Árd Dheis only 2 weeks ago, where Sinn Féin expressed support for ETA's "cause".

martarg

And no-one is rushing to judgement. Two terrorists were already arrested on Christmas Eve for attempting the same thing, and a van loaded with a large amount of explosives was intercepted a few days ago, but there are other reasons to suspect that this has nothing to do with any other terrorist group but ETA, whatever Otegi may say to throw dust in anyone's eyes... even if ETA did not send polite warnings this time, there is no suicide bomber involved, and some of the THIRTEEN backpack bombs had been set to explode later than others in order to hit the police as well, as they have done other times. This has nothing to do with Bush, Aznar, 11 September, or Iraq, whatever we may think about any of those issues... this is the same old story with ETA, only this time they have gone too far even for their sick standards...

bonkey

Originally posted by Mighty-Mouse
You wuldnt want to look like a moron who's opinion is pure drivel, would you.

and

Originally posted by Redleslie
Does anyone else see an interesting example of moronic hypocritical knee jerkism at play here? Using this outrageous atrocity as an excuse to get on a high horse and have a go at republicans or any other local political bogeymen is pretty bloody disgusting imo.

Gents...I would strongly suggest that you tone your wording down. Reefbreak is as entitled to his opinion as you are to yours. He, at least, is doing everyone else the (required) courtesy of being civil while he makes his point.

jc

kiffer

Originally posted by shotamoose
But how can they know this? Was there any warning, has anyone claimed responsibility? It seems to me that they're rushing to judgement a bit.

We see this happen all the time...

remember the time animal rights activists planted a bomb at the grand nationals (or some other race) and the media, and people kept saying it was probably the IRA then switched to say it was the ira, as if they had proof, then it turned out not to be them ... the media never/polititions never say they where wrong, ever.

shotamoose

Originally posted by bonkey
Gents...I would strongly suggest that you tone your wording down. Reefbreak is as entitled to his opinion as you are to yours. He, at least, is doing everyone else the (required) courtesy of being civil while he makes his point.

jc

Calling someone 'pro-terrorist' because they think someone else might share some of the blame is being civil? Unless 'pro-terrorist' is now some kind of harmless euphemism commonly bandied about between friends, isn't he accusing pdh of approving of the Madrid attack and other acts of murder? Just because the syntax was tidy doesn't make the accusation any less serious.

magpie

186 dead and 1000 injured according to the latest news coverage. I was in Atocha station recently, a beautiful place with palms, wild birds, turtles... an oasis of calm until today. A sad day for Madrillenos. RIP all.

geezup

Originally posted by martarg
And no-one is rushing to judgement. Two terrorists were already arrested on Christmas Eve for attempting the same thing, and a van loaded with a large amount of explosives was intercepted a few days ago, but there are other reasons to suspect that this has nothing to do with any other terrorist group but ETA, whatever Otegi may say to throw dust in anyone's eyes... even if ETA did not send polite warnings this time, there is no suicide bomber involved, and some of the THIRTEEN backpack bombs had been set to explode later than others in order to hit the police as well, as they have done other times. This has nothing to do with Bush, Aznar, 11 September, or Iraq, whatever we may think about any of those issues... this is the same old story with ETA, only this time they have gone too far even for their sick standards...

totally agree with that...

I don't think IRA trained ETA or anything like that but its well known, they had exchange information in the past and they do sympathise each other.

Last nite, 2 people were throwing away fliers in San Sebastian (one of the main cities in the Basque Country) encouraging people to attack Spanish trains.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by shotamoose
Calling someone 'pro-terrorist' because they think someone else might share some of the blame is being civil? Unless 'pro-terrorist' is now some kind of harmless euphemism commonly bandied about between friends, isn't he accusing pdh of approving of the Madrid attack and other acts of murder? Just because the syntax was tidy doesn't make the accusation any less serious.

I was not accusing PDH of being pro-terrorist - what I was saying was that it was typical of the language used by pro-terrorist people, i.e. those that support IRA or ETA or AL Qaeda or Hamas. It's a common technique: blame everyone else apart from the people that actually committed the atrocity.

shotamoose

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I was not accusing PDH of being pro-terrorist - what I was saying was that it was typical of the language used by pro-terrorist people,

Sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick, but you didn't go out of the way to make the distinction yourself.

It's a common technique: blame everyone else apart from the people that actually committed the atrocity.

And it's a common technique to label any attempt to suggest that someone else may share some of the responsibility 'pro-terrorist'. A technique which does more harm than good.

martarg

We could make a bet on who is behind this, but I have coexisted with ETA all my life, and seen their mode of operation explained with every new attack, and I have heard the information on today's attack, and I cannot find a reason to suppose that it was not them. Doubting that it may have been them, is straining the supposition much more strongly than going the opposite way. I cannot claim to know much about the IRA, I am only explaining how the Madrid tragedy looks to the common sense of any Spaniard. What would you think if Basque terrorists had been arrested only a few days ago with the evidence that they were preparing for something like this? If the planting fitted their usual method in everything but the "polite call", which has not actually happened on every single occasion in the course of thirty years? I may turn out to be wrong, anything is possible, but I have not a shadow of a doubt about ETA's responsibility.

Redleslie

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I make no apology for any of my statements. One of the most savagely brutal terrorist attacks ever seen in Europe has been committed today.

Yes it has, and instead of expressing any sympathy with the victims or trying ot understand the complex political situation Martarg describes, you're using it to knock evil republicans.

In all likelyhood, it was done by ETA. I believe ETA and their political wing Batasuna had delegates attending the Sinn Féin Árd Dheis only 2 weeks ago, where Sinn Féin expressed support for ETA's "cause".

As far as I'm aware, SF support Basque independence, but go ahead and show us where Adams (who has denounced the atrocity) or anyone else said they support ETA unconditionally and if they blow up hundreds of people on trains that's ceart go leor.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
It's a common technique: blame everyone else apart from the people that actually committed the atrocity.

Hello? Anyone at home? /me waves hand in front of Reefbreaks face. You're blaming republicans for a mass murder planned and committed by ETA. Wakey bloody wakey.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Redleslie

Yes it has, and instead of expressing any sympathy with the victims or trying ot understand the complex political situation Martarg describes, you're using it to knock evil republicans.

As far as I'm aware, SF support Basque independence, but go ahead and show us where Adams (who has denounced the atrocity) or anyone else said they support ETA unconditionally and if they blow up hundreds of people on trains that's ceart go leor. [/B]

That's a fair enough comment, I agree I was very quick to jump on the anti-Sinn Féin/IRA ticket. Obviously, no words right now can express what I feel about this sort of murder in Madrid, and my sympathies will go out to my friends in Spain.

But to answer your point, I don't know if SF have expressed unconditional support for ETA, but I do know they have expressed support for their terrorist campaign - a quick look in Yahoo for Sinn Féin and ETA proves that.

martarg

Its very sad that this has happened, however if it does turn out that ETA were responsible, then I can’t help thinking that the PP government also share some blame. The PP government have spent that last few years involved in widespread repression against Basque society and refusing to get involved in any form of dialogue with the Basque Independence movement. As far as I know the Spanish government even brought in a law that gives a 5 year jail sentence to anyone who advocates Basque independence in a peaceful manner !!!!

I know this is a somewhat old message in the thread, but if we are to discuss the complex political situation in Spain, I think I should go back to it, because as someone also said, ETA seems to have wonderful PR outside Spain, and it makes me very sad to hear things like "movement for Basque freedom", or "repression against Basque society" (???) by the Spanish government.

I wonder how many people outside Spain know that the Basque Country has a degree of self-government which Ulster never had in all its existence, including their own parliament, education, police and health services, that it has been consistently governed by a constitutional nationalist party ever since Spain became a democracy, but most importantly, that it is the non-nationalist side of the Basque Country who are actually oppressed in their daily lives. ALL non-nationalist politicians down to the last councillor in the last tiny village have to be under protection 24 hours a day, they cannot have fixed daily routines, not even have a beer twice in the same bar at the same hour. Elections are not free in the Basque Country, not because the evil Spanish government is there to oppress the poor Basques, but because some Basques in particular are ready to spot and blacklist anyone who is seen to vote a non-nationalist party. The social and political pressure on non-nationalist Basques has forced thousands of people to emigrate, and has cost others their lives.

As regards talks with ETA, that is a controversial subject, but I am personally against it. It has been attempted other times, but ETA is only willing to negotiate when they want time to reorganise, and they will not make any concession worth the name. They simply don't want compromise, they want to manipulate whoever is in sight to get their ends. Besides, what moral right do they have to put themselves forward as representatives of the Basque popular will? Especially when there already is a majority nationalist democratic party actually supported by the polls. Whatever the Basque conflict may be, and whatever its solution, I doubt very much that terrorism is the last resort of a desperate people. In this situation, I don't think that refusing to negotiate with terrorists is pigheadedness...

BuffyBot

Adams (who has denounced the atrocity)

Hmmm. He used to do that a lot about the atrocities in the North, didn't he?

swiss

a quick look in Yahoo for Sinn Féin and ETA proves that.

I don't know whether you're right or wrong, but I'm afraid saying "a quick google" or "a quick websearch proves it" does not really cut it when people ask for evidence regarding a point you've made. If theres an abundance of evidence however then yes, you can take it relatively for granted that a quick google/yahoo search will suffice. It's a small but important point.

It really makes me wonder how any this kind of atrocity could occur in any kind of civilised society. I thought Omagh was bad, but this level of calculation and maximisation of human casualties infers unspeakable evil.

This may sound reactionary, but I really hope the people who committed this atrocity are hunted down like the dogs they are.

ReefBreak

Excellent post by martarg. I've read the same thing in the past concerning non-nationalist politicians from the Basque country.

Yet some Irish people's ill-informed opinions of the "oppressed Basques" are similar to recent Irish-American ill-informed opinions of Northern Ireland...e.g:

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Jeez! Reefbreak you are extreme. To claim that ther has been no repression of the Basque. :eek:

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by ReefBreak
but I do know they have expressed support for their terrorist campaign - a quick look in Yahoo for Sinn Féin and ETA proves that.

They support Basque independence. I was in the Basque area of Spain last year and the people there are extremely friendly. They were really interested in Gaeilge and our fight for independence as they have their own language too and their situtation is much like ours.

Supporting Basque independence is different to supporting the ETA, much the same as supporting Irish unity is different to supporting the IRA.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/3786

dubhthach

After the spilt in the IRA in late 69 the provo's got in contact with ETA.
ETA gave them guns for training on how to make bombs, later they co-operated along with the red brigades on arm smuggling etc.

The also attended the same training camps in Libya and Syria

ReefBreak

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
They support Basque independence. I was in the Basque area of Spain last year and the people there are extremely friendly. They were really interested in Gaeilge and our fight for independence as they have their own language too and their situtation is much like ours.

Supporting Basque independence is different to supporting the ETA, much the same as supporting Irish unity is different to supporting the IRA.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/3786

Yes, I understand that supporting Basque Independence is different to supporting ETA, same as supporting the SDLP is different from supporting the IRA. But what I am saying is that Sinn Féin and An Poblacht, in the past, have expressed support for ETA and for their terrorist campaign. I'm glad Gerry Adams condemned the bombing, it was the very least he could do. However, he may be doing it as a precaution against (very likely) upcoming media stories describing the links between SF/IRA and ETA.

Redleslie

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Hmmm. He used to do that a lot about the atrocities in the North, didn't he?

No he didn't. Adams condemning IRA attacks? Are you quite mad sir? He would express "regret" the odd time if people died that weren't supposed to, collateral damage so to speak, but that's only because it would be bad news from a tactical point of view.

Anyway why has Northern Ireland been brought up. This is about ETA, Spain and the Basques is it not?