Bomb attack in Madrid

sovtek

Originally posted by Redleslie
Anyway why has Northern Ireland been brought up. This is about ETA, Spain and the Basques is it not?

Actually this is about the bombings in Madrid. Whether it was ETA, IRA, Ikante Icizwe or martians...no one knows yet.
I usually find it hard to believe the government when they seem to know immediately who is responsible.
I remember in '94 and the Oklahoma City bombing was originally blamed on "Arab terrorists" and the news was actually circulating police artist sketches hours after it happened.
The fact is no one could know for sure at this point and I think it is seriously jumping to conclusions. Having said that I would take martag's points into mind.
I also find it interesting that people are so ready to use this to talk crap about Sinn Fein and the IRA.
And not all Irish Americans are ill informed about the situation in the North as has been asserted. A situation that is of interest to people all over the the world. The Irish and the British don't own it.

martarg

They support Basque independence. I was in the Basque area of Spain last year and the people there are extremely friendly. They were really interested in Gaeilge and our fight for independence as they have their own language too and their situtation is much like ours.

Well, as I said before, I cannot claim to know much about the IRA, but at least I know the basics about Irish nationalist history (I wrote a Ph. D. thesis on the Fenians), and I can say that at least Irish nationalism has a longer tradition than Basque nationalism. The similarities that certain nationalists on both sides like to draw, to me seem little more than interested mutual support, rather than true similarities. I do not like to offer any opinions on Sinn Feinn or the IRA, but Basque nationalism has a completely different origin. There was no plantation of "foreign" settlers, no religious differences, no Famine and no Spanish ascendancy that might give rise to grievances. Actually the Basque Country has traditionally enjoyed a better economic situation than most other areas in Spain. Basque nationalism as a political movement was born out of the Carlist Party, who supported a different branch of the Bourbon monarchy. The Basque Nationalist Party was founded by Sabino Arana in the late nineteenth century--incidentally, a man very much given to xenophobic remarks on Basque purity and Maketo (despective for Spaniard) inferiority.... Basques have a language, but so do Galicians and Catalans, some of whom are nationalist, and some of whom are not. Language does not automatically entitle a people to nationality. To me nationality should be supported on the popular will, not on presumed differences with others.


As regards links betweeen the IRA and ETA, I have heard of contacts before, including that bit about exchanging techniques and being trained in the same camps... one time I was in Trinity College Dublin, and I saw the announcement for a joint meeting between Sinn Feinn and Batasuna. Probably this would not stand as evidence in court, but it is easy to suppose that friendly relations do not stop at meetings. I do not know about Sinn Fein, but Batasuna is ETA disguised as a political party...

martarg

Everything points at ETA except the absence of actual arrests to prove it: previous history, procedures and the evidence (yes, with arrests this time) that they were preparing for something like this. If it looks like a horse and smells like a horse, chances are it is a horse. The government could as easily blame Al Qaeda and say that there was good reason to send soldiers to Iraq, but it happens that nobody here believes that ETA is not behind this, not even the Basque nationalist government. Believe me, we know ETA, and Spain has not bred Oklahoma bombers as yet. But I will not insist on this any more, I am just very sorry that some people seem so determined to prove ETA's innocence against all arguments that contradict it...

martarg

Just modifying a little my previous message... I am sorry, I am sure you do not mean to exonerate ETA, but I answered a similar message this morning, and it was making me frustrated.... I really would take money bets on this, I know what life in Spain is like, what ETA does and does not, what other groups might have done something like this, and I have no doubts... nobody is jumping to conclusions, I assure you....

Redleslie

Originally posted by sovtek
Actually this is about the bombings in Madrid. Whether it was ETA, IRA, Ikante Icizwe or martians...no one knows yet.

Yes you're quite right, but ETA look to be the likely culprits right now. However the conspiracy theory part of my little brain even allows for the possibility of state or secret service involvement.

thesecret7

what a sad day ! It looks like the evil work of ETA!

It brings back all the bad memories of Sinn Fein bombs going off. Murderers:mad:

martarg

Please tell the conspiracy-theory side of your brain, from me, that nobody here toys with ETA or orchestrates bombings. The sickest the secret services got in spain was to use terrorism back on ETA during the eighties, but this sort of atrocities against ourselves are not part of our intelligence (?) tactics...

Redleslie

Originally posted by martarg
The similarities that certain nationalists on both sides like to draw, to me seem little more than interested mutual support, rather than true similarities. I do not like to offer any opinions on Sinn Feinn or the IRA, but Basque nationalism has a completely different origin. There was no plantation of "foreign" settlers, no religious differences, no Famine and no Spanish ascendancy that might give rise to grievances. Actually the Basque Country has traditionally enjoyed a better economic situation than most other areas in Spain.

This reminded me of an argument a friend of mine (a republican as it happens) had with some Basques some years ago. They said the IRA and ETA had more or less the same aims and ideals. My friend disagreed and argued that ETA behaved more like fascists who want to hog all the region's loot.

Originally posted by martarg
Please tell the conspiracy-theory side of your brain, from me, that nobody here toys with ETA or orchestrates bombings. The sickest the secret services got in spain was to use terrorism back on ETA during the eighties, but this sort of atrocities against ourselves are not part of our intelligence (?) tactics...

I have to reiterate that I think state involvement is a possibility, a slim one perhaps, but a possibility nonetheless. Contra-guerrillas, Operation Gladio, Bologna 1980 and all that. I do find it rather unlikely that the Spanish secret services would not have infiltrated ETA to some degree by now as the IRA (them again) for example were successfully infiltrated at a high level by British intelligence.

Mighty_Mouse

Sinn Fein bombs going off

I dont remember any Sinn Fein bombs

Its a terrible tradegy.

Why can ppl not just deal with it as such instead of immediately trying to twist it towards a SF baching forum.

Do ye know how stupid it is to be comdemming SF for an ETA bomb!!!

martarg

This reminded me of an argument a friend of mine (a republican as it happens) had with some Basques some years ago. They said the IRA and ETA had more or less the same aims and ideals. My friend disagreed and argued that ETA behaved more like fascists who want to hog all the region's loot.

That is an interesting argument )) ... but I think it is a little more complicated than that... the Basque Nationalist Party, which are the constitutional side of Basque nationalism and have nothing to do with ETA or Batasuna except their lack of warmth when it comes to condemning or persecuting them, may have cultural or economic reasons to want independence, but in any case I would not like to call it "hogging the loot" ))) The problem with ETA is rather the "fascist" argument, which I agree with completely... they want to establish a Marxist (sic) totalitarian state in the Basque Country, period. If the Basque Nationalist Party achieved Basque independence tomorrow, the first threat they would have to deal with would be from ETA itself, because they do not just want independence, they want independence in a certain way. And an organisation that knows nothing about democracy and tolerance before independence, cannot be expected to behave differently after it, when they find that they are still a minority.

sovtek

Originally posted by martarg
Just modifying a little my previous message... I am sorry, I am sure you do not mean to exonerate ETA, but I answered a similar message this morning, and it was making me frustrated.... I really would take money bets on this, I know what life in Spain is like, what ETA does and does not, what other groups might have done something like this, and I have no doubts... nobody is jumping to conclusions, I assure you....

I wasn't really talking about you. It's also why I put a qualifier:

Having said that I would take martag's points into mind.

I know very little about ETA and the Basques in general . When I first saw the news this afternoon it didn't remind me of what I've seen from ETA, or the publicised attacks over here. Then I've only been living in Europe for 4 years and had never heard of them before moving here.
I also found Aznars immediate accusation as a little dubious, being so soon after it happened.
I also will not condon ETA or whomever did this, as I do not condon attacks of this nature whoever carries them out.
On the other hand I wouldn't call someone who maybe expresses concern over their motives as a "pro-terrorist". Not that I'm refering to you when I say that.
As well intelligence services of many countries have been known to carry out attacks on their own citizens to further political aims. I think that's where that suggestion came from. I'd say that there is no reason to believe that at the moment either.

martarg

Yes, you do have a point, there is contraguerrilla, and the secret services should have infiltrated ETA to some extent, and they certainly have, judging from recent arrests. But they frustrated similar attempts not too long ago, why not let them proceed then? I rather believe that ETA knows they are being watched and have grown much more careful, and I suppose the police cannot always succeed...

martarg

I know very little about ETA and the Basques in general . When I first saw the news this afternoon it didn't remind me of what I've seen from ETA, or the publicised attacks over here. Then I've only been living in Europe for 4 years and had never heard of them before moving here. I also found Aznars immediate accusation as a little dubious, being so soon after it happened.

Well, It didn't remind anyone of ETA here either, they had never done something like this before, but they had given plenty of indications that they were preparing for it. Perhaps if we were threatened by more than one terrorist organisation one could look for culprits there and elsewhere and try to come to conclusions then, but methods and timing fit exactly what ETA, and nobody else we know of, could be expected to attempt. Of course there is Al Qaeda, but no suicide bombers in this case... another interesting bit of information is that not long ago there was some commotion when a Catalan nationalist held a secret meeting with ETA in France. Not to go into all that, but a few days later ETA announced a truce only for Catalonia. Obviously they would be anxious to strike somewhere else right before the elections....

dathi1

Seriously lets not get into the blame game as to weather Gerry Adams is involved or not....up to 200 hundred people died today as a result of some organisation or individuals. Speculation by Aznar and Co seems to be relying on the fact that Dynamite was used in the attacks which would have all the hall marks of ETA. How they can come to this conclusion within 12 hrs of the explosions is beyond me.

pointers to ETA:

Dynamite supposedly used. (used in tin mines northern Spain)
Train caught a month ago with explosives on board.
Supposedly a getaway van found?
Elections

pointers to Middl-eastern fundamentalist cells:

Coordinated attacks
Spain's participation in Iraq Invasion.
No warning explosions
targeting civilians directly (as apposed to Guardia Cival etc)
Elections

We wont find out until way after the elections but if its ETA the whole seperatist business is finished.

Johnny 5

Reefbreak,

Are you sure the IRA didn't have anything to do with September 11th? Or the Bali Bombings?

Come on, apply your twisted logic to that.

martarg

Well, this is how I see it:


Pointers to ETA:

ETA Terrorists arrested on Christmas Eve, similar attack frustrated
ETA Terrorists arrested a few weeks ago on their way to Madrid, van loaded with explosives intercepted
(have not heard about getaway vans, two men were apparently seen going in and out of one train this morning)
ETA's announcement of a truce "only for Catalonia", and determination to strike before elections, as they always, always try to do
Dynamite of precisely the same kind stolen by ETA a few years ago in France
Previous history of car bombings, ETA has not only targeted the Guardia Civil or the politicians. One of their bloodiest attacks was a bomb in a Department Store twenty years ago.

Pointers to Al Qaeda:
Magnitude of the bombing
Spain's participation in Iraq, no greater than Britain's
Absence of warning

geezup

It's been confirmed on the Spanish TV (Spanish CNN actually) that they used the usual kind of explosives ETA uses... titadyne or however u write that in English.

dathi1

Dynamite of precisely the same kind stolen by ETA a few years ago in France

...Dynamite only has a short shelf life and separates into its basic constituencies after 1 year which makes it become very unstable. So stuff taken years ago couldn't be used. I hope its not ETA because if it is they have set Basque independence to the bin.

martarg

Yes, I think I have heard that too. I suppose we will know more about the dynamite sooner or later. But I would rather think that Basque independence is not an issue here. I understand you sympathise with the idea, since you are sorry for what this has done to it, and I respect that, even though ETA has made it very difficult for me to accept certain things and look on Basque nationalism with the same democratic respect I hold for Catalan or Galician nationalism. But the thing to be sorry for in this case, is not the goal that may suffer, but the fact that there may be people, not to use other names, who can do things like this for such a goal, or any goal. The good news for you is that things do not change that easily in Spain. One week from now we will be much the same as yesterday in many respects.

Sand

If it was ETA then it was monstrously evil and unbelievably stupid.

The thing with terrorists is if they "only" kill 7 or 8 people at a time in some far off country then it barely makes the news - it serves its purpose of shouting "Hey look at us, were so oppressed were willing to kill innocent people - thats how oppressed we are!" and people attempt to understand where theyre coming from, and apply a determinalist logic to it, spreading the blame from the terrorists to the evil government thats opressing them - forcing them to do these horrible things. The devil made them do it. This leads to sympathy for their goal, if not their methods and thus pressure on the oppressive government to give in to the terrorists and their plans.

Thats how terrorism makes sense to terrorists. They cant beat a government militarily.

This on the other hand is unspeakably evil - we know because a lot of people died and its all over the news, the actual suffering of the victims and their families is on such a scale that it drowns out the terrorists claims of being oppressed. The anger that is naturally generated if anything leads to acceptance that the government may have to take unusual steps to combat the terrorists - which if anything sets back the terrorists. Spectaculars are bad for business as far as terrorists are concerned - especially when they have a gun and ballot box strategy like ETA does.

Im just not sure how this makes sense from ETAs point of view - theyre going to suffer a massive backlash in terms of government reaction, their international popularity with activists will plummet and their own support is going to find it hard to be aligned with such a murderous act. They must have known casualties would have been immense at rush hour - if it was them then a full 20% of the people theyve killed since the 60s died this morning.

Believe me, Im not trying to remove guilt from ETA - theyre certainly capable of such an act - theyve killed before so theyll happily kill again, I just dont know how they would see a gain from it. It would be a massive, massive blunder on their part.

geezup

Al-Quaida not discarted...

They found a van in a town one of the trains were coming from, with several detonators and a cassette tape with a recording in arab with some text from the coran (don't know if u write it like that.. not really into religions...)

gurramok

Yep, just seen that on CH4 news.

Strange how the Spanish interior minister immediately blamed eta a few hours after the massacre without evidence to back it. Then later the excuse was similar dynamite used in the past attacks.
Only the investigators will find out who was realy behind it, not speculation.

monument

Originally posted by ReefBreak
where Sinn Féin expressed support for ETA's "cause".

What the FU*K is wrong with expressing support for their cause?!

[ADDED:] from the BBC Online...

"Spain says Arabic tapes, detonators found in stolen van after bombings. More soon."

Ancient1

Fukin cowards. Whoever it was.

geezup

Originally posted by Ancient1
Fukin cowards. Whoever it was.

that's the word man...

i still cant believe it...

geezup

holy ****...

a supposed letter from al-qaida sent to some newspaper in UK saying they did it !

BattleBoar

I keep thinking of this eerie quote by none other than bin Laden himself in his first tape after 9/11:

Let the world know that we shall never accept that the tragedy of Andalucía would be repeated in Palestine.

The most radical Islamacists clearly see Spain as rightly belonging to the Muslims...

Lear

Originally posted by geezup
holy ****...

a supposed letter from al-qaida sent to some newspaper in UK saying they did it !

Actually, yes

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040311/ts_nm/security_spain_qaeda_dc

eirebhoy

Originally posted by geezup
holy ****...

a supposed letter from al-qaida sent to some newspaper in UK saying they did it !

Yep, an letter was sent to a UK newspaper, supposedly from Al Quida saying it was them. They also said their big attack on the US was 90% ready and that there will be an attack on the UK.

xm15e3

Originally posted by eirebhoy
Yep, an letter was sent to a UK newspaper, supposedly from Al Quida saying it was them. They also said their big attack on the US was 90% ready and that there will be an attack on the UK.

Operation "Winds of Black Death"....either they are playing with the plague, or they are preparing to "fart in our general direction".


I'd guess small pox actually.