Bomb attack in Madrid

GuanYin

I read this thread all day in work from when I posted, but kept quiet on the "blame" debate til now.

I was and still am very skeptical of ETA involvement, for two reasons.

1. They denied it. - OK, they're terrorists, why believe them, but generally there isn't much point in terrorism unless you claim credit. When things go horribly wrong the usual response is to say it was a horrible accident, not deny your involvement. Its one thing to be a murderer, people may still see your point (if not agree with your actions). Its another to be aliar and a murderer.

2. ETA (and I'm open to correction) have a history of going for infrastructure, not people. No warning, its not consistant with previous ETA attacks.

Now, I think I was the first to post mentioning Arab involvement (I forget) but it seems most likely. Spain and the Arab world have a troubled history, to put it mildly, the US alliance during the Gulf War II, didn't help. Spain is an easier target than the UK.

I think people in the spanish government were very quick to blame the ETA, thats politics, its not doing either side any favours, but the outside armchair experts that so venomously stated their case without any evidence, ought to take a good long look at themselves and their motives. (and that includes ALOT of posters on this thread).

mobby

It’s a fact that no matter what there are people on this planet who will rejoice and celebrate what happened today in Madrid, or be it New York, Bali, Baghdad, Omagh where ever, It’s a sad old world we live in. I am not a religious person but sometimes I wish if there is a GOD above he would come down and sort all this mess out, that’s my two pence worth , I don’t give a Sh1t about IRA,PIRA,UDA,PLO,ETA,CIA,FBI,
At the end of the day its always the Poor average innocent people who have to pay for the lunatics in this world.

ferdi

this is heavy ****:(

its really terrible.

if it was islamic extremists exacting revenge upon Spain for its support of war on iraq, how long can it be before britain gets some?

shotamoose

Originally posted by ferdi

if it was islamic extremists exacting revenge upon Spain for its support of war on iraq, how long can it be before britain gets some?

According to Ken Livingstone, four attempted terrorist attacks on London have been 'foiled'. Which makes you think it won't be long until something gets through the net.

martarg

I'm sorry if anything I said sounded venomous to you, but I don't think I have hurt any ETA supporter by anything I may have said, and if I have, the fact that they do support ETA is enough for me not to care too much. ETA still is a more than reasonable suspect, and I cannot regret saying so, even if they should turn out not to have done it, which I don't really believe. The evidence pointing to Al Qaeda now turns to be a tape in Arabic which can be bought in shops, and a letter to a newspaper by a group who apparently also claimed responsibility for USA blackouts. I still hold that a recent arrest in the course of a similar operation has more weight as evidence.

We might also wonder why Otegi pointed to Arab terrorists long before the van was found.... we might suppose he wants exactly this: throwing everybody into a discussion on who was actually behind the bombing, and get some occasional sympathy in the meantime, but I don't want to be called paranoid...

As regards, "ETA going for infrastructure, not people", once again I would like to say that no, ETA has gone for people more than once, twice, and a hundred times. ETA has a long history of car bombings, kidnapping, extorsion, sabotage and shots in the head, they are by no means an innocuous little band of mischief-makers who plant a bomb once in a while where it can harm nobody. Whenever they have sent a warning, they have also set a trap to kill the police when they should approach the bomb. And as I said before, their bloodiest attack took place in the parking lot of a department store.

And finally, I would like to say that blaming ETA has nothing to do with politics. ETA is not a political group, they are murderers, and that is the saddest part of all this business, that people should think that attitude to ETA is about politics....

Tommy Vercetti

Sad, sad day for Madrid, Spain and Europe as a whole, my heart goes out to all those affected.

911 days since 9/11 too....coincidence?

Mighty_Mouse

Looks like those who were quick to blame ETA (and the IRA/Sinn Fein/Gerry Adams/Republicans! ) might end up being way off the mark.

What I could'nt believe yesterday is how so many prominant politicains were blaming ETA immediately. Personally I cant understand it b/c it serves no benefit to their cause.

Its also completely different to anythign that has gone before

Sparks

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Looks like those who were quick to blame ETA (and the IRA/Sinn Fein/Gerry Adams/Republicans! ) might end up being way off the mark.

May is the operative word MM. A letter is convincing enough to investigate Al-Quaeda suspects carefully, but it's not proof.

What I could'nt believe yesterday is how so many prominant politicains were blaming ETA immediately. Personally I cant understand it b/c it serves no benefit to their cause.

Killing any civilian serves their cause badly MM.
The reason so many jumped to say it was ETA is because for the last few decades, all the terrorist attacks in spain were carried out by ETA.

Its also completely different to anythign that has gone before

Only in scale. People have been killed in explosions by ETA before y'know.

SheroN

Yes but ETA have never targeted civilans with the intent of killing as many people as possible. I personally think it was islamic fundamentalists.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
The reason so many jumped to say it was ETA is because for the last few decades, all the terrorist attacks in spain were carried out by ETA.

True. But as we've just seen with the intelligence with Iraq - when you have a theory which you want to prove, you can often inerpret much evidence to be corroborative that - had you kept an open mind - may not actually be corroborative evidence at all.

I am personally of the opinion that while there is reason to consider ETA a prime suspect, that is all they are - a prime suspect. Not the only suspect, nor "guilty but uncharged till we find proof".

There is also a risk that if you go too far down a road of insisting that someone is guilty, it is impossible to turn back should you find that its not them because you'd look like a complete tit.

Nothing will serve the Spanish worse than jumping to any conclusions.

jc

Chaz

I mentioned to the wife yesterday - the date - 11 March - exactly 6 months after 11 Sept. Freaky or not? Let the conspiracy theories roll.

Sparks

Exactly bonkey.

Egalitarian

The speculation as to who is behind the bombing betrays the difference between the terrorist atrocities at the beginning of the 21st century and those that occurred in the 1970s and 1980s. In the earlier decades we could identify a political movement linked to the violent campaigns. The commitment to build support for these clear political aspirations acted to check the barabarism of such activities, as active political supporters were integral to the ambitions of these political movements. Today, we no longer witness terrorist campaigns or organisations with any political mandate or clear programme - whether that is ETA or al-Quaida. This explains why we fret over who carried out such atrocities and why there appears to be no other motive than to cause utter mayhem and bloodshed. The motives of bombers today seems to express a desire to showcase their alienation from modern life, this nihilistic trend is not the product of the Arab world. As is clear form the biographies of al-Quaida bombers who were wealthy Western-educated Saudis and the plethora of British, US, French and Germans willing to engage in suicide bombings in Palestine and elsewhere, this introverted identity crisis seems to originate right here in the West.

The atrocity in Madrid follows a pattern of individual terrorism which speaks more of the need for cultural recognition than political conviction. This is why it is so sad to read posts which seek to imply some political rationale for these actions. The churlish reticence to note ETA's marginalisation or Sinn Fein's sympathy with the Basque 'cause' suggets that today's terrorism is not being adequately distinguished from politics in any meaningful sense.

Ironically, today's planned demonstrations in Spain against terrorism mirror the self-same indulgence in cultural recognition. These demonstrations will exhibit nothing more than a personal desire to seek community in the public grief of the bomb victims. As a recent Civitas report issued in the last 2 weeks "Conspicuous Compassion", this need to public grief expresses something different from both private feelings towards those who died and public commitment to a poltical challenge to terrorism. It simply reflects the same mood of dislocation that individuals experience today, and the temporary desire to create a community of sympathy based on mutual recognition of each others grief.

Posters may well regard these comments as contentious, but I hope you will respond constructively.

yellum

Originally posted by SheroN
Yes but ETA have never targeted civilans with the intent of killing as many people as possible.

Apart from the 21 people killed in that supermarket blast, that was just a glitch yeah ?

SheroN

I don't know the details of that case?...got any links or that?...

LegacyUser

Originally posted by yellum
Apart from the 21 people killed in that supermarket blast, that was just a glitch yeah ?

they said sorry so i guess so

Nuttzz

talking to people this morning is spain (as i do) They believe that the government is lying about the Al-Q link and that ETA is really behind it, they are surprised by the views from outside spain

thejuggler

Just read in the Irish Examiner the attacks happened exactly 911 days after September 11th 2001 (which is known as 9/11 in the USA)

bug

I heard on C4 yesterday evening that some of the bombs, on which controlled explosions were carried out, were placed strategically so as to prevent emergency services responding to the carnage, if they had of gone off. That doesnt sound like eta to me.
The american governement IMO is playing down the Al-Qaeda link in order to assist the Spanish government in the elections..well to me thats quite obvious..
Either way I doubt there will be any more definite information on the Al-Qaeda link until after people have voted.

geezup

For any of you who may be interested....

today at 19:00 will be a demonstration starting at the spike in O'Connell Street

ReefBreak

Originally posted by geezup
For any of you who may be interested....

today at 19:00 will be a demonstration starting at the spike in O'Connell Street

A demonstration against what?

geezup

... yesterday's bombings in Madrid, whoever did it.

Just heard that on the radio this morning.

bonkey

Originally posted by thejuggler
Just read in the Irish Examiner the attacks happened exactly 911 days after September 11th 2001 (which is known as 9/11 in the USA)

Only if you ignore Feb 29 this year, surely?

September 11 2001 to Dec 31 2001 = 19 + 31 + 30 + 31 = 111 days

Take the two full years (2002 and 2003) and you have 365 * 2 = 730 days.

Jan 1 2004 : Mar 11 2004 = 31 + 29 + 11 = 71 days.

730 + 111 + 71 = 912 ???

jc

patto_chan

Originally posted by thejuggler
Just read in the Irish Examiner the attacks happened exactly 911 days after September 11th 2001 (which is known as 9/11 in the USA)

Conspiracy theories gone mad ???
If you put the 2 dates in Excel and subtract you get 912 .....

Stark

Just read in the Irish Examiner the attacks happened exactly 911 days after September 11th 2001 (which is known as 9/11 in the USA)

Yeah, and the two 1s in 11 are symbols of the twin towers

I still believe that the US government and Al Quada are somewhat linked. Interesting to know if this attack was stage in order to
1) Get something like the Patriot Act enforced in Spain (don't really see the advantage to them).
2) Strike fear in the hearts of US citizens again, without making the government look incompetent by having an attack on US soil. Hence the subsequent warnings of an Al Quada "Black Winds" attack on the US which followed after the bombings.

GuanYin

Originally posted by martarg
I'm sorry if anything I said sounded venomous to you, but I don't think I have hurt any ETA supporter by anything I may have said, and if I have, the fact that they do support ETA is enough for me not to care too much. ETA still is a more than reasonable suspect, and I cannot regret saying so, even if they should turn out not to have done it, which I don't really believe. The evidence pointing to Al Qaeda now turns to be a tape in Arabic which can be bought in shops, and a letter to a newspaper by a group who apparently also claimed responsibility for USA blackouts. I still hold that a recent arrest in the course of a similar operation has more weight as evidence.

As I wa sjust discussing, it doesn't bother me what you think, but the fact is, there is no proof either way just yet. And lets just look at all the dogma thats been coming out of spain, and where its been coming from. This sounds terrible, but I think that alot of the voices that came out blaming the ETA before ANY facts were known, are politicians with alot more to gain from their point of view if this was the ETA and not a muslim fundamentalist group.

Originally posted by martarg
We might also wonder why Otegi pointed to Arab terrorists long before the van was found.... we might suppose he wants exactly this: throwing everybody into a discussion on who was actually behind the bombing, and get some occasional sympathy in the meantime, but I don't want to be called paranoid...

Maybe he did know something was up, I'm quite sure that the terrorism network keeps an eye on such things so as not to b eusurped from within, but as sson as I heard the extent of planning involved I thought immediately it was al quieda, it seemed to be a much more vicious assault (if one can actually make distinctions in such cases) than the ETA are known for. Does that make me suspicious?

Originally posted by martarg
As regards, "ETA going for infrastructure, not people", once again I would like to say that no, ETA has gone for people more than once, twice, and a hundred times. ETA has a long history of car bombings, kidnapping, extorsion, sabotage and shots in the head, they are by no means an innocuous little band of mischief-makers who plant a bomb once in a while where it can harm nobody. Whenever they have sent a warning, they have also set a trap to kill the police when they should approach the bomb. And as I said before, their bloodiest attack took place in the parking lot of a department store.

I never claimed otherwise, but they are not the only ones with the means, and in this current climate, the motive to carry out such an attack. The main reason I don't believe it was them is simply because they denied it. It serves no purpose to your cause to kill innocent people, but it serves even less of a cause to be caught lying about it. From thier rather skewered point of view, they would have nothing to gain by denying it, and potentially, everything to lose.

Originally posted by martarg
And finally, I would like to say that blaming ETA has nothing to do with politics. ETA is not a political group, they are murderers, and that is the saddest part of all this business, that people should think that attitude to ETA is about politics....

It has everything to do with politics. Seeing as so many like the IRA analogy, who doyou think the first people to blame the IRA for a bombing before the evidence comes out would be? We all have our Paisley-esque figures, and while some of them may have a stronger sense of morality behind them than others, there are those that will seek political advantage and gain from any situation, no matter how dire. I think you should look at the loudest cries from Spain and the ones most adament that it is ETA. Do they have reasons for it other than history?

Its sad to move away from the tragedy and have to focus on such things, its even sadder to divert the truth to gain something from the deatsh of innocents (I'm not saying anyone has, but we can ensure it doesn'thappen by waiting for the evidence).

geezup

from rte.ie...

Vigil on O'Connell Street at 7pm

In Dublin, a minute's silence has taken place at the Spanish Embassy in Dublin, where a book of condolence has been opened. Around 100 people, both Spanish and Irish, gathered at the Embassy to pay their respects.

A vigil organised by the Spanish community here to coincide with a number of similar events throughout Europe will take place at 7pm this evening outside the GPO on O'Connell Street in Dublin.

Egalitarian

Is this a political forum or a conspiracy forum?

shotamoose

Originally posted by Egalitarian
Is this a political forum or a conspiracy forum?

Can't it be both? The two are hardly mutually exclusive

But yeah, all this '911 days since 9/11' is pretty silly. Even if it is 911 days, so what? We'll find out eventually whether it was ETA or Al-Qaeda. Just not until after the election - which, I might add, I'm surprised they're still holding this Sunday.

Mighty_Mouse

May is the operative word MM. A letter is convincing enough to investigate Al-Quaeda suspects carefully, but it's not proof

Glad that someone else admitting to the bombing is "convincing enough to invesitgate" elsewhere.

Killing any civilian serves their cause badly MM

What I'm trying to say is I dont see the point from a ETA point of view. Bombs to distrupt tourism, investment etc ............ I can understand the motivation. But a massacre like this ! I dont get it.

Can someone explain what ETA motivation would be with this bombing? Would it be to do something so horrific that public pressure would want to give the Basque their freedom? Would it be to affect investment in Madrid? Stock Exchange?

To be honest it looks like Al Queada to me. At least a person can understand their motivation for it...............message to the supporters of Bush etc etc

Only in scale. People have been killed in explosions by ETA before y'know.

Yes but the scale is dramatically different.