Bomb attack in Madrid

ixoy

I think it's perfectly understandable that Spain is blaming ETA. If all terrorist activities of the last while, up to point N, are the work of ETA, then it is implied (albeit not proven) that the attack on point N is their work. They've also always needed to vilify ETA - why would such an incident make them suddenly turn away from their enemies and look to lay blame elsewhere?

The Al Qaeda connections appear tenuous at best. The organisation that claimed responsibility has had their claims refuted before (the US blackout). The van found on the scene could even be a planted red herring - ETA want to strike out, but fear the backlash too. What better way than to try and make it seem like a Middle East piece of terrorism? We won't know for a while yet.

Why, as a matter of interest, would Al Qaeda target Spain ahead of the elections when the elections hold more relevance to the likes of ETA? Additionally, why would they favour Spain over Britain, a much stauncher ally of Dubya?

pdh

I posted a message yesterday on the subject of the Bombings, however reading through all the messages, it seems to be turning into a forum to belittle the cause of the Basque people for the legitimate right to take their place among the nations of the World.
As time goes by, it will become obvious that ETA and the Basque Republican Left had nothing to do with yesterday, whatever the PP terrorist government in Madrid says. I hope everybody remembers what GAL are capable of.

Also I have seen the references made by REEFBREAK & MARTARG to my original post. Just want to say that I make no apologies to them for my support of the Basque people’s fight for an independent sovereign state in the lands currently occupied by Spain and France.

geezup

>>> I hope everybody remembers what GAL are capable of.

Yes. I do remember them for doing the same kind of things ETA does but against ETA, that's why i admire them. We need a new GAL, because they dont exist anymore and for a while now.

bug

I think it's perfectly understandable that Spain is blaming ETA. If all terrorist activities of the last while, up to point N, are the work of ETA, then it is implied (albeit not proven) that the attack on point N is their work. They've also always needed to vilify ETA - why would such an incident make them suddenly turn away from their enemies and look to lay blame elsewhere?

The Al Qaeda connections appear tenuous at best.

So tenuous evidence as opposed to no evidence at all and a denial from batasuna...

is this a political forum or a conspiracy forum

well if you mean by conspiracy, examining all possible political motivations behind events such as yestersdays bombing and examining the media, than i imagine yes.
if you mean adding up numbers so see how close they come to any random sequence of the numbers 911, then I hope not.

pdh

So GEEZUP, at least your honest, not like some of the others posting messages here. At least you admit your support for State terrorism and don't use moral arguments against the Basque people. Your seem to be just a supporter of Spanish imperialism.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

geezup

Originally posted by pdh
So GEEZUP, at least your honest, not like some of the others posting messages here. At least you admit your support for State terrorism and don't use moral arguments against the Basque people. Your seem to be just a supporter of Spanish imperialism.

Of course im honest... but i actually dont give a f*ck bout politics... i dont mind if the Basque people want their independence or not... i just dont like the way they have been trying to get it so far. I dont like the violent way. But if they choose that way, i must admit, i support the same kind of fighting them back. That's it. Same way for what happened yesterday... if it turns that Al-Qaeda did it, it will show our stupid Prime Minister, taht he did wrong supporting the stupid Bush's war. The problem is he will win again on the elections next Sunday, cause Spanish people is dumb... and before anybody jumps on me ... im Spanish too...

GuanYin

Originally posted by Mercury_Tilt
Its more than likely Al Qaeda. They have the will, resources and stomach to pull off such spectaculars. The Spanish government wanted in on the party and Al qaeda probably decided to say welcome in their own way.

In fairness, relations between spain and the muslim world haven't been overly strong since 1492, perhaps its a little far fetched to suggest that the events of over 500 years ago would still touch a nerve with some muslim groups, but it wouldn't surprise me.

monument

Originally posted by syke
In fairness, relations between spain and the muslim world haven't been overly strong since 1492, perhaps its a little far fetched to suggest that the events of over 500 years ago would still touch a nerve with some muslim groups, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I'd think it'd have more to do with their support for a recent war.

Ireland could be somewhere down the line on the list of targets, or “British interests” in Ireland could be targets – all purely speculation.

GuanYin

Originally posted by monument
I'd think it'd have more to do with their support for a recent war.

Ireland could be somewhere down the line on the list of targets, or “British interests” in Ireland could be targets – all purely speculation.

Oh of course the war would be the reason for the attack if it turns outto be AQ. What I meant was, things weren't exactly rosey between them before the war anyway.

Ireland were not part of the "coalition of the willing" so despite the shannon situation etc, we officially stayed out of the war.

Mighty_Mouse

ETA want to strike out, but fear the backlash too

That just doesnt make sense to me. Why would ETA plant a bomb to further their cause for whatever reasons they might have................and deny it!

Surely an organisation plants a bomb for a reason. What your suggesting is that ETA did it because they liked the bang!

Like previous poster stated.............this was no **** up. These were similutaneous bombs, without warning, at peak hour.

I could understand if it was a mistake trying to deny it, but it wasnt.

To me it looks more like fundamentalists.

geezup

Yeah... it wasnt a mistake. That's for sure.

They also saying from one of the bombs that didn't explode, the detonator and explosive were different from the ones ETA usually used, but made in Spain.

martarg

QUOTE] Its sad to move away from the tragedy and have to focus on such things, its even sadder to divert the truth to gain something from the deatsh of innocents (I'm not saying anyone has, but we can ensure it doesn'thappen by waiting for the evidence). It has everything to do with politics. Seeing as so many like the IRA analogy, who doyou think the first people to blame the IRA for a bombing before the evidence comes out would be? We all have our Paisley-esque figures, and while some of them may have a stronger sense of morality behind them than others, there are those that will seek political advantage and gain from any situation, no matter how dire. I think you should look at the loudest cries from Spain and the ones most adament that it is ETA. Do they have reasons for it other than history? [/QUOTE]


Yes, we do, and I have stated them time and again (previous arrests, timing, Otegi's wonderful information, trains declared an objective only two days ago, and so on, and so forth), but I feel I am breaking my head against a brick wall, and it is getting exhausting. I think I have argued my point long enough, and it appears protecting ETA's more than dubious reputation is more equitable and reasonable than expressing a perfectly valid conviction that they were probably behind the bombing, whether Al Qaeda is another likely suspect or not. I suppose thirty years of sharing the same space with them and over eight hundred victims, give me the benefit of information but do not qualify me to be objective and balanced about this, but I do not think terrorism is something to be objective about. I have refrained from offering opinions on Northern Irish issues, just as I do not think that distance provides a better perspective on Basque issues, it rather blurs the details.... Whatever similarities you may find with Northern Ireland, analogy with issues one feels strongly about is not a great standard of objective measure. In any case, I may be right or wrong on ETA's involvement, but the suspicion is not something to feel guilty about.

Some people also ask themselves, what does ETA have to gain from this. When it comes to popular response within Spain, the same as they have to gain from any other attack, a revulsion against them, but that is part of the martyrology. In this case, they have been notoriously weak for the last few years, and this would help them prove that they are as strong as ever. The truce "only for Catalonia", and the necessity to highlight it right before the elections, are another point to take into account. They have attempted unprecedented things before. The Al Qaeda scenario may have given them ideas. The kidnapping of Miguel Angel Blanco a few years ago, whom they held hostage for two days under an impossible ultimatum, and then shot and abandoned in the middle of a forest, back then seemed too cruel and brutal even for them, but it happened. The fact that they had never done something this big before, doesn't mean they would never do it if given the chance.


As regards the Al Qaeda business, since this is the last message I am going to post on this thread, updates are, 1) the Batasuna newspaper Gara sent a press note with the "news" that Al Qaeda had claimed authorship long before the van was found--forgot to mention this yesterday, although I had already heard it before the van business; and 2) the group who has claimed authorship apparently only operates in Afghanistan, is rather reduced in strength, and has a marked preference for claiming anything under the sun

One of the most depressing and discouraging aspects of living with terrorism in Spain is precisely the fact that whenever ETA kills someone, the first concern of some people is to ensure that the government (whom I do not particularly support, if anyone is wondering) does not get political advantage from it: "They have just killed one of your councillors, a father of three, in front of his wife, but do not dare to take political advantage by complaining". In the shock and horror of yesterday's bombing, I doubt that political advantage was in anyone's mind, except those who are afraid that ETA's crimes will hurt their cause. Out of democratic ethics, ETA must be out of the way before their cause can be considered, and sympathy for their victims cannot be mixed with any other issue whatever, for or against Basque independence. Basque democratic nationalism is the only legitimate voice in the matter. ETA is not politics, so long as they have the means to pursue independence democratically.

I am a great believer in not letting issues get mixed up. Basque independence is a matter of opinion, terrorism is not. While I am perfectly willing to listen to arguments in favour of independence, and I would be perfectly ready to let the Basque Country go its own way if Basque people chose it off their own free will, I will not allow terrorism any legitimacy, and certainly I will not discuss ETA in political terms.

A few links if someone cares to be informed by other than either Batasuna or the odd Spaniard who chanced to come by. I recommend the last one:

http://www.mir.es/oris/infoeta/ing/p9b-eng.htm

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9707/13/spain.clash/

http://www.mir.es/oris/infoeta/ing/accion.htm

http://www.rsf.org/rsf/uk/html/europe/rapport/eta.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1642548.stm

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/2000/08/war-000829-spain.htm

http://www.unesco.org/courier/2001_07/uk/dires.htm




Well, for the rest, to those who have expressed their sympathy, I thank you with all my heart....

geezup

am i the odd Spaniard who chanced to come by ?

geezup

Originally posted by martarg
As regards the Al Qaeda business, since this is the last message I am going to post on this thread, updates are, 1) the Batasuna newspaper Gara sent a press note with the "news" that Al Qaeda had claimed authorship long before the van was found--forgot to mention this yesterday, although I had already heard it before the van business;

They said today on Spanish rdio stations.. that was already known round midday by the police. But never announced till early evening by Angel Acebes.

They will hide as much information as they can, and while they can. There won't be any big news till the elections finish. That's the way they have been doing for years. Informative manipulation. More now, with the possibility that Al-Qaeda did it instead of ETA.. cause that will be really bad for them, since they took our country to a war nobody wanted but our "lovely" Mr. Aznar, and "his mate" George.

vorbis

ya geezup, far better that you let a group of terrorists decide your foreign policy. Aznar shouldn't have done anything because he ran the risk of upsetting Al Qaeda :rolleyes: However, I would still think that Eta carried out the attack. The background information about previous attempts on the same kind of targets is pretty significant.

David-[RLD]-

Spanish imperialism, French imperialism, English imperialism, American imperialism..

Are all the small countries like Ireland the only ones that AREN'T imperialist?

I have my extremely strong doubts that it was in fact ETA. Al-Qaeda are much more likely suspects.

Funny how the Spanish government suddenly jumped to the conclusion that it was ETA, same with the Irish/British governments and the IRA. For all we know it could have been the USA or some other country.

They should launch a huge investigation and have those responsible either shot or thrown in jail until they rot. Detonating bombs with an intention to kill as many innocent people as possible is worth a serious condemnation.

I believe it was Al-Qaeda.

xm15e3

http://www.ncmonline.com/content/ncm/2001/oct/1001spain.html

In Spain: ETA and Al-Qaeda Forge New Anti-EU Alliance
NCM Online, By Paolo Pontoniere, October 1, 2001

The Basque terrorist organization ETA and bin Laden's al-Qaeda cells have joined forces. Their shared goal: to organize and carry out an attack on the EU meeting scheduled for March 2002 in Barcelona, according to two Spanish publications, Tiempo and El Mundo.

According to the reports, which have been confirmed by Italian and French media, representatives of the two terrorist organizations have already met together three times in Brussels in December 2000; in Malaga, Spain in February 2001; and in Barcelona last July.

According to the European reports, the terrorists have planned a suicide attack on the meeting that would entail the use of five car bombs provided by ETA, and delivered by five al-Qaeda suicide drivers. European authorities consider this news credible, and have disclosed that Mohammed Atta--one of the terrorists responsible for the early September attack on the World Trade Center--may have also attended the July meeting between ETA and al-Qaeda in Barcelona.

In its report, Tiempo revealed that, thanks to a tip-off by US Navy intelligence, Spanish authorities were able to prevent another al-Qaeda attack last December. This one would have involved striking American aircraft carriers with suicide vessels filled with the deadly explosive C-4. The attack--like the assault on the USS Cole in a Yemeni port--was scheduled to take place as the two aircraft carriers would have readied to moor at NATO's Rota navy base near Cadiz. The suicide motor boats would have departed from the nearby coast of Morocco, a country with a significant Muslim population.

Spain, because of its proximity to Morocco and Algeria, has experienced a significant influx of Muslim immigrants. According to authorities, there are now about 500,000 Muslim immigrants living in Spain. Experts estimate that, among these emigres, are about 100 al-Qaeda agents ready at any moment to hit a Spanish or American target.

Since 1996, the Spanish police have formed a special unit dedicated to investigating the activities of these terrorists. In addition, Spanish prime minister José-Maria Azanar has pledged troops to any American-led coalition to fight international terrorism. Azanar has also allowed the US to use NATO navy bases in Rota and Moron to carry out air strikes against terrorist targets.

Although enjoying broad-based support at home for his commitment to the US, Azanar may find that his position could cause troubles for Spain abroad. In fact, neighboring Morocco, separated from Spain by the narrow strait of Gibraltar, is home to 4.5 million Islamic fundamentalists, who may become angered at Spain's generous support of America.

Such a development could push young Moroccan king Mohammed VI into the fray, forcing him to face Islamic fundamentalist terrorism, as in neighboring Algeria. There, the government has been embroiled in a bloody and protracted war with indigenous Islamic terrorists for years.

monument

Originally posted by syke
Ireland were not part of the "coalition of the willing" so despite the shannon situation etc, we officially stayed out of the war.

Try and tell that to Al-Qaeda.

xm15e3

Originally posted by monument
Try and tell that to Al-Qaeda.

Until Ireland accepts rule under the Shari`ah it will be in the "house of war".

Sand

The Spanish governments fixiation on ETA makes sense from a electoral point of view - it confirms their hardline stance is correct, helping their electoral chances. If it was al Queda then it might become an electoral issue - with the Spanish government having joined the coalition in the war against terror. That might actually harm their votes.

That just doesnt make sense to me. Why would ETA plant a bomb to further their cause for whatever reasons they might have................and deny it!

Perhaps they were deluded in thinking that "only" a dozen or so people would die - that it would be business as usual for terrorists - ETA must recognise that regardless of whether they did it or not it would deal a terrible blow to their "legitimacy" in the eyes of their supporters and activists abroad, if they were associated with it - their supporters can delude themselves with the legends of the heroic ETA freedom fighters against the evil Spanish government but something on this scale gets through even that idiocy. Hence theyll put as much distance between it and them as they can. This is 198 dead, over a thousand wounded - even the RIRA initially denied they were responsible for Omagh if I remember correctly and that was a fraction of the Madrid death toll.

I dont think ETA is the prime suspect, but i dont think them denying it means anything really. Theyd do it anyway. Much like those al-queda boys would claim it anyway.

Spanish imperialism, French imperialism, English imperialism, American imperialism..Are all the small countries like Ireland the only ones that AREN'T imperialist?

Pretty much - Imperialism is bandied about to slur just about any country or group of countries out there. It doesnt really mean anything anymore because its so devalued through overuse.

The only reason small countries dont get called imperialist is that it would absolutely hilarious to describe a nation like ireland that couldnt defend a post office as Imperialist.

Would it be to do something so horrific that public pressure would want to give the Basque their freedom? Would it be to affect investment in Madrid? Stock Exchange?

Terrorism cannot accomplish any of those aims - terrorist attacks merely harden the stance of the survivors, discouraging negotiation. Even a sustained series of terrorist attacks cannot impede a state - its like trying to take down an elephant with a cocktail stick. Look at the attacks in Iraq, for all their ferocity the process of an Iraqi government coming together is continuing, look at 9/11 - it was a great psychological blow to the US but in real terms the US has hardly broken stride - if anything its power and confidence has expanded. Terrorism is utterly pointless. It never accomplishes the stated goals - ever. If anything it impedes real change.

I still believe that the US government and Al Quada are somewhat linked. Interesting to know if this attack was stage in order to

The risk makes no sense. It would be like you deciding you want a day off school so you decide to kidnap and murder your teacher so that when the body is found the school will close as a sign of respect.

The risk-reward doesnt add up. And on top of that Al-Queda have been attacking western targets long before bush showed up.

Lear

Originally posted by Chaz
I mentioned to the wife yesterday - the date - 11 March - exactly 6 months after 11 Sept. Freaky or not? Let the conspiracy theories roll.

Try this on: The attack on 3-11 is EXACTLY 911 days AFTER 9-11-2001

Lear

Originally posted by Sand

The risk makes no sense. It would be like you deciding you want a day off school so you decide to kidnap and murder your teacher so that when the body is found the school will close as a sign of respect.

Whether or not something makes sense or has ZERO factual support doesn't seem to matter to the anti-American crowd.

sovtek

Originally posted by Lear
Try this on: The attack on 3-11 is EXACTLY 911 days AFTER 9-11-2001

And what happens when you type M-A-D-R-I-D in wingdings? :rolleyes:

sovtek

Originally posted by Lear
Whether or not something makes sense or has ZERO factual support doesn't seem to matter to the anti-American crowd.

Who? Al-Qaeda?

dathi1

Terrorism is utterly pointless. It never accomplishes the stated goals

So 1916 was a waste of time then?

LegacyUser

Originally posted by dathi1
So 1916 was a waste of time then?

true, this state was founded on the back of terrorism, as was israel, algeria, vietnam, catros cuba, sure there's more but just a couple off the top of my head, terrorism works sometimes

sovtek

Originally posted by bananayoghurt
true, this state was founded on the back of terrorism, as was israel, algeria, vietnam, catros cuba, sure there's more but just a couple off the top of my head, terrorism works sometimes

...America, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Canada, Mexico, Texas (you did say "state":) ), Spain....sorry just a few more.

monument

Originally posted by Sand

---

Spanish imperialism, French imperialism, English imperialism, American imperialism..Are all the small countries like Ireland the only ones that AREN'T imperialist?

---

Pretty much - Imperialism is bandied about to slur just about any country or group of countries out there. It doesnt really mean anything anymore because its so devalued through overuse.

The reason small countries are not normally imperialistic, is simply because they can not normally extend their "authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations".

Devalued through overuse? More like, devalued by the people who don’t like uses of the word. Governments, and other groups, don’t like when their actions and/or policies mirror past rulers who are now seen as "evil" or wrong by most.

vorbis

1916 failed daithi, read up on your history. History has shown that only when the terrorists have significant as in majority support of the population, do they succeed. Otherwise they lack recruitment grounds and support. In I would say all of the above, significant support existed for the terrorist's aims. In cases like Eta, there is very little support. Its also the reason why the IRA will never succeed in the north.