Eircom's p**n racketeering

eircomtribunal

Press release for ComWreck.com


Why does Eircom consider African Guinea Bissau a Pacific island?
Why does ComReg not stop Eircom's well-planned profiteering from Internet crooks and porn pedlars?
Why does ComReg allow Eircom to bypass the consumer protection given to customers of other Premium pay numbers with its Directory Inquiry Services 11811 connect service?

Find some of the answers in John's latest Blog "Guinea Bissau is a Pacific Island?! http://www.comwreck.com/blog_14_mar12.html

Warning: The article contains some minor nudity and is about major obscene practices.

Peter

vibe666

someone will do something eventually, but when will that be?
incidentally, don't you think it'd be worth letting the sunday papers know about. would make an interesting read for anyone who doesn't know about the scam.

dahamsta

Niggly-piggly little item:

By the way, those diallers don't work if you have broadband Internet connection.

The dialler will work if the computer still has an analog modem and it's plugged into the regular line. Which is quite possible if dub45's cries of anguish about connectivity are to be believed. (I still have a dialup modem and it's plugged in, simply because I occasionally use the computer to fax. I imagine I'm not the only one.)

adam

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
Press release for ComWreck.com


Why does Eircom consider African Guinea Bissau a Pacific island?
Why does ComReg not stop Eircom's well-planned profiteering from Internet crooks and porn pedlars?
Why does ComReg allow Eircom to bypass the consumer protection given to customers of other Premium pay numbers with its Directory Inquiry Services 11811 connect service?

Find some of the answers in John's latest Blog "Guinea Bissau is a Pacific Island?! http://www.comwreck.com/blog_14_mar12.html

Warning: The article contains some minor nudity and is about major obscene practices.

Peter

Would you mind quoting sources for your "regulated in other countries" claim as regards porn dialer countries?

dahamsta

I've been reading up on Diego Garcia. Apparently, in the midst of the Cold War in the late Sixties / early Seventies, the United States decided they wanted to set up a military refuelling base there, so they asked the United Kingdom - which "owned" the island - to evict the indigenous population of 1000-2000 people. The United Kingdom, in return for substantial discounts on Polaris missile systems, bundled the inhabitants up and dumped them in Mauritius. They were allowed only one suitcase each for their personal belongings.

This is relevant because regular folk aren't allowed on Diego Garcia, only UK and US military personnel and contractors can go there. There's no third-party crooks here, Cable & Wireless are the enablers, Eircom are the scammers. Both are crooks.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/12/60minutes/main558378.shtml
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/dg.html
http://www.dg.navy.mil/
http://www.mydiegogarcia.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia

You can (apparently) email the CEO of Cable & Wireless Diego Garcia here.

adam

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
Would you mind quoting sources for your "regulated in other countries" claim as regards porn dialer countries?

Best explanation of the regulation in Germany in this article. Its in German, so try running it through a translation utility (and the gist may still be readable?!): http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/politik/0,1518,289237,00.html
A recent ruling by the highest German court said a customer has not to pay for call charges which are the result of a dialler which was installed by stealth. Once Telcoms have no longer the right to collect these charges, they are no longer interested to co-operate with the dialler crooks.


Switzerland has disallowed all dialler services. Try the regulator's web site: www.bakom.ch Look for the entry: "04.02.2004
0900: Information und Schutz der Konsumentinnen und Konsumenten vor PC-Dialern"
I'm not going to dig into it for you here.


In the US the FCC took a different route - advise people to get their international calls blocked on their computer lines - which is not practical here, as people do not get a second line for their computer thrown in for the 10 Dollar a month line rental. http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/ModemScam.html

Peter

spongebob

Eircom have a special escalation team to protect their revenue (The Profit alone is over €1m a month) from Porn Diallers . I did mention it in a thread last Year Here . It is nothing new.

I flagged the issue even earlier when the Band 13 price gouge was first announced, and permitted by Comreg , Over a Year ago . That was before the USO was published however.

Comreg's perennial ineptitude in respect of protecting the consumer from scum like Eircom, through the USO mechanism, is nothing new either. They have not implemented the USO properly.

If you (or friends or associates) get stung by a porn dialler you have an easy legal action against Comreg for their failure to implement the "Right To Control Costs" clauses in the USO, published last July . Let Comreg get the money back off Eircom the useless tools. I have long argued that Band 13 should be an opt in Universal sevice and not an open credit line for thieving scum like Eircom and their mates the porn dialler programmers. The Mods in here do not like this argument , they constantly move the threads for no good reason.

M

spongebob

....including Guinea Diego Garcia and Nauru , three of Eircoms most profitable Porn Dialler band at €3.61 a minute .

You need a smidge of German To Understand This so I BabelFished it for ye .

"The t-Com, fixed net section of the German Telekom, closes foreign connections to certain call numbers after references from customers and the Federal Office for security (BSI). Had been noticeable the t-Com and to the BSI suddenly increased connecting arising to individual call numbers in certain ziellaendern. As a cause one constituted Dialerprogramme. The goals of these connections are appropriate for Guinea until sow (00245) in Sao Tome and Principe (with the preselection 00239), Diego Garcia (00246) and Nauru (00674)."

Could that person PM me again about the billing escalation team , ta.

M

eircomtribunal

As to the German text:
"T-Com, the fixed line division of German Telecom [the German incumbent], after being notified by customers and the "Federal Office for Security", closed international connections to certain numbers. The "Federal Office for Security" and T-Com had noticed high volume calls to certain numbers, caused by stealth dialler programs.

The connections were to Sao Tome and Principe, Guinea Bissau, Diego Garcia and Nauru. There were also connections to satellite service EMSAT.
T-Com will continuously monitor numbers in co-operation with the "Federal Office for Security" and not pay interconnection fees for dialler caused connections. ..

Following the decision of the Bundesgerichtshofs [highest German court] a telephone customer has not to pay bills that are the result of diallers that have been installed by stealth into his computer."


ComReg are not aware of Eircom's special rip-off porn and Internet crook Band 13 and ComReg are not aware about stealth diallers,"as the Internet is so new." Unfortunately I'm not making this up.

Where are Mary Hanafin and other public representatives whose main interest in the Internet seems to be in connection with porn?

Peter

The pic links to the ComWreck blog.

spongebob

As you can see, the blonde is demonstrating Pr0n (as it is understood by Mary H), while the spokesperson verbalises the content to the assembled Irish Tech Journalists ... or maybe 80% of all known ones ....who will repeat it verbatim in the papers tomorrow.

M

dahamsta

I was a bit quick with my advice on this thread and recommended that someone take Eircom to Small Claims to stop them trying to bill him for dialler calls. In hindsight, I'm having difficulty finding an angle for the case, anyone got any suggestions?

adam

sceptre

Big issue in Australia too (I haven't time right now to fully read the two links but here's one and another with case studies). Obviously the ozzie providers hate the idea of opt-in. They've dumped access to certain number ranges in Guinea-Bissau though.

spongebob

I have gathered all his wise nuggets since he joined Boards into one post

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l33t my hole, my arthritic geriatric Basset Hound has more cop on.

M

spongebob

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
Do you mean they can install without the user doing anything, or the user is tricked into installing them?

Either or Both of those normally apply Johnny. There are honest ones too who tell ya what you are doing before you click OK .

(Would whoever is doing the typing for that other fella pleeeeeease stop , empty vessels and all that ..)

M

ChipZilla

There was a thing about porn diallers on Watchdog the other night. One woman who was hit with a £1000 bill has to wait four months for the regulator to decide whether or not she's liable for the bill.

Here's where the scumbags get their diallers from:
http://www.pornsitedialers.com/dialerfaq.htm

Some good advice for all concerned here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/advice/internet.shtml

Assorted Articles:
http://www.the-scream.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11685&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/11/05/italian_charged_in_porn_dialler/

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,39020369,2124327,00.htm

http://www.btsuck.org/?article=177 - which has a nice bit from a BT engineer regarding disputed calls:

T- Logger..the final answer...period. #15
By Anonymous on Sun 8 Feb 2004 at 12:06
Right then..Im a BT Coach from the South West & would like to put this one to bed. Firstly I'd like to point out that fraudulant use of peoples lines, whilst not common, can happen. Heres the way to tackle it. Once you are adamant that you are not to blame for the call traffic you need to register a complaint and request a line integrity check. This is usually carried out by a senior engineer and will check the copper path end to end and file a report to a special investigation unit. The next step if you insist you are not to blame is to have what is know as a t-logger installed at your house between the linebox and the network..the unit is sealed with security tags and tamper label and this will normally be left on for a period of 2 weeks or more. We can also use another device called a monologue which sits in the exchange which will monitor when the handset is lifted, numbers dialled, handset replaced etc etc...

Now then...here's the crunch. The t-logger knows if the call has been made from your house or not.....dont argue the toss...it's never ever wrong..its sat between you and the world. When the report is filed and your bill is upheld...pay it. I dealt with a case years ago where call traffic was huge and all times of the day and night and when the house was 'unoccupied'. The customers son was dialling premium rate gay chat services and had been for sometime. Now call me a cynic but thats not BT's fault is it..? Also many of the porn sites now install diallers and users can be duped into installing them without their knowledge........again...not BTs problem.

Ive also seen cases where people have used 'smart diallers' between the phone and socket that can re-route via different networks and be problematic. The printout from the monologue will show handset lifted and number dialled...if it doesn't connect..tough..thats 5p per call..your problem..the exchange has dialled correctly it was the dialler at fault. If it dials premium rate..unlucky. I once presented a customer with 45 pages of mis-dialling proven to be his kit..I was ushered out the door and he never even looked at it....bill was maintained and the tosser still complained..so I visited again and billed him for a short cct into one of his diallers....some people cannot be reasoned with.

I hope this helps..I have 2 loggers in my office so if you'd like to be very red in the face I'll pop round and fit one.

Tootle-pip...S.W. Techy.


Reply to this comment

BigEejit

Ok ... can people please get back on topic ....

The argument as I see it is that €ircon are profiting inordinately from porn diallers. They have gone out of their way to make sure that calls made by porn diallers to far-away locations are charged at the highest rate possible.
We know that people shouldnt click on those xxx toolbar installation proggies but they do (out of ignorance) .... can we leave it at that? .... no-one would be arguing if they were charged at local call rate, we are arguing that €ircon are making a massive profit from this and will not change their ways without legislation....

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by watty

For these 99% of people, the ISP and phone companies *ARE* irresponsible and do seem more inclinded to make a buck from the spams and scams.

But it's in the TOS!! So they aren't responsible...

Seriously!

Eircom would have been sued by now otherwise.

adonis

i have to agree with JV on this one.
how can you not put some of the responsibility on the consumer?
how can you realistically expect a company to charge a call to an island in the south pacific at a local call rate? this is a ludicrous suggestion
have you checked esats call calculator to see if they charge it at a local call?

is this argument/collective ranting directed towards eircom? or towards irish isps/telecoms operators?

are we expressing sour grapes here at eircom or at the communciations regulator?

if it is sour grapes i wonder how much of it stems from uninformed bundling in the stock exchange?

Johnny Versace

Yup, I have a feeling no matter what Eircom does people will hate them.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by adonis
how can you realistically expect a company to charge a call to an island in the south pacific at a local call rate? this is a ludicrous suggestion
have you checked esats call calculator to see if they charge it at a local call?

Has this been suggested here?

What has been suggested is a specific 'opt in' for these unusual expensive locations. It is highly unlikely you would make these calls in the normal course of events. This would be more ethical than piggybacking on the scam artists, imo, and Eircom would still make money on those calls genuinely intended for these locations.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by adonis
how can you realistically expect a company to charge a call to an island in the south pacific at a local call rate? this is a ludicrous suggestion

So it's OK for Eircom to profiteer from a scam like this by effectively creating a premium-rate dialing band and preventing their customers from barring calls to this band without also barring all international calls?

(JV, this post is on topic for this thread.)

adonis

They have gone out of their way to make sure that calls made by porn diallers to far-away locations are charged at the highest rate possible.

this was a post from earlier.

i presume this is what you said was not suggested.

in the interim, have you checked with esat to see if their prices are comparable?

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by oscarBravo
So it's OK for Eircom to profiteer from a scam like this by effectively creating a premium-rate dialing band and preventing their customers from barring calls to this band without also barring all international calls?

(JV, this post is on topic for this thread.)

There is no way Eircom are doing this on purpose to profit from these scams. Let's not get paranoid here.

They may be a business trying to make as much money as possible, but they are a legit business, not some dodgy basement outfit.

adonis

good point
So it's OK for Eircom to profiteer from a scam like this by effectively creating a premium-rate dialing band and preventing their customers from barring calls to this band without also barring all international calls?

is this actually the case, has anyone tried to bar these numbers?

anyway, we digress, its definitely the customers responsiblity to ensure that they protect their own pc..

do you people leave your doors unlocked at night? and do you then blame the burglars when you are robbed?

dahamsta

Originally posted by Muck
I have gathered all his wise nuggets since he joined Boards into one post

Post of the Month!

It's hard to lay blame for the diallers, it's hard to pick between Microsoft, users, retailers, Eircom, web hosts, and an assortment of other miscreants along the path. Legally I imagine the blame would end up with the people "installing" the diallers in the end, but of course we all know that they're untouchable for the most part.

On the subject of users though, although I'll lecture people until the cows come home about patching, I find it hard to lay the blame at their feet, because computing has become so commoditised any TD&H can buy one now, and in truth most people simply aren't equipped to understand computer security. It's not their fault, even if occasionally I do fly off the handle and say it is.

That's why I posted originally though, because it is so hard to apportion blame directly. I'm looking for an indirect route because no matter how you look at it Eircom is ultimately racketeering with these dialling codes, they are demanding money with menaces. Causing embarassment is menaces, even if it isn't all that menacing. It should be stopped, and a few court cases would help that along.

As I told yerman, it's a win-win. Either Eircom won't turn up and he'll win by default; or Eircom will turn up and so will we.

adam

Johnny Versace

But your argument doesn't make sense.

Eircom provide a phone line which you can then use to make whatever phone calls you want.

The user then install a piece of hardware (the PC), attaches it to the phone line, and then that hardware starts making international calls.

How is this Eircom's fault???

There is no way Eircom could be blamed for this in court.

Moriarty

The point isn't really that they can make the calls in the first place, it's that eircom are complicit in the overall scam. Eircom created a special calling band for porn-dialler locations and coincedently hiked the price on this band up massively. The price hike was done as they knew they could get away with it - the vast majority (all in some instances) of calls to these locations are done by porn diallers. This means the bill-payer isn't aware of the call charges, which in turn means that eircom have no reason to keep them low. They then turn this thinking on it's head and aim to deliberatly take as much as they can from this band. They make a massive turnover on any calls to this band, as has been demonstrated by the comwreck article that gives ideas of what other telcos are charging to get to the same numbers.

Eircom aren't necessarly to blame for the calls going through, but they most certainly are entirely responsible for the calls being so expensive so that people get hit with much larger bills as the end result.

dahamsta

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
There is no way Eircom are doing this on purpose to profit from these scams.

Depends what you mean by "on purpose". Obviously they're not installing the diallers, and it's unlikely that they're supporting the people that are directly; but the prices they charge for access to the places the diallers call are ludicrous, and they're not doing anything to stop it either. You can break the law and act unethically by inaction you know.

Did I mention that the only people that live on Diego Garcia are the military and military contractors? Couple thousand of them I think. Do you honestly believe that Eircom believes that all these calls routed there are to these guys? Of course they don't, and that's not paranoia, it's realism.

They may be a business trying to make as much money as possible, but they are a legit business, not some dodgy basement outfit.

Basement, no. But let's be honest, Eircom HQ should be clad in an oversized sheepskin jacket.

adam

Johnny Versace

Yes, that's a fair point, but I don't think it is unreasonable for Eircom to assume the people are using these porn dialers on purpose.

As in, they are assuming the customer knows what they are doing.

...

I seriously doubt Eircom had a meeting where they choose to rip people off who (mistakenly) have porn dialers on their PC.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
Yes, that's a fair point, but I don't think it is unreasonable for Eircom to assume the people are using these porn dialers on purpose.

As in, they are assuming the customer knows what they are doing.

You have got to be kidding.

Let me put it this way: do you make that assumption? If not, why is it OK for Eircom to make it?

I seriously doubt Eircom had a meeting where they choose to rip people off who (mistakenly) have porn dialers on their PC.

I'm sure there's a perfectly logical explanation for why they just happened to create an ultra-expensive international band that just happens to include all the place that perpetrate this racket. :rolleyes:

BigEejit

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
Yes, that's a fair point, but I don't think it is unreasonable for Eircom to assume the people are using these porn dialers on purpose.

As in, they are assuming the customer knows what they are doing.

...

I seriously doubt Eircom had a meeting where they choose to rip people off who (mistakenly) have porn dialers on their PC.

I have to disagree, €ircon can see how many calls are made to a tiny island that is well known to be a terminating point for porn diallers ... that is entirely populated by another countries military forces and contractors to the military. They then jack up the price of calling this country .... 2+2 IMO

And as for people knowing what they are doing, I have heard of (no link though I'm afraid) diallers that make you think you are dialling your usual ISP number and otherwise act as if you were just doing the usual ...i.e. no massive porn banners or being taken to porn sites .... it is all surrepticious and most users would not know the difference.