Eircom's p**n racketeering

watty

Originally posted by seamus

Now, I wouldn't ask that eircom pay for this, I would just like to know why this man couldn't just block band 13 calls, without blocking all international calls. If he blocked all calls, how would he be contacted from home should there be a problem? If band 13 calls were blocked, the problem couldn't surface, even after his son surfing dodgy sites.

Absolutely reasonable.

http://www.voicepulse.com/features/advanced/Blocking.aspx

Incomming: http://www.privacycorps.com/products/

Block specific code ranges:
http://store.yahoo.com/hiq/tlocteloutca.html

Pan EU model powered from phone line
http://www.lastmilesolutions.com/Calnavigator-telecom.html

Why though should we have to spend $80 on a phone dialer when Eircom could do it for free?

I've just changed to Esat "Advantage Plus" I wonder will they block specific destinations?

Ripwave

Originally posted by BrianD
How can be Eircom be profiteering?

Have you even bothered to read the thread? Eircom makes more money on any calls made by one of these porn diallers than the scumbags that seed them do. Eircom charge far more than any other operator does for dialling these countries. That's not an accident - it's a deliberate policy on the part of eircom to take advantage of the victims of these dialler programs.

Assuming that you secure your phone line it is highly unlikely that you will ever call a band 13 country.

Bingo! Now you're getting it! It's extremely unlikely that anyone legitimately calls any of these countries from Ireland. Which means that the vast majority of traffic to these countries is caused by porn diallers. Yet knowing this, Eircom increased the cost of calls to these countries, so that they could profit from the poor gob****es that get caught by these things.

Can I take it that there are no problems with porn diallers in Germany if called to Band 13 countries only cost 35c?

The German courts have ruled that Deutsche Telekom can't collect on calls made by these porn diallers.

What do Vartec charge less for? Can you clarify.

Let's see, maybe it's vartec charge less for calls to Band 13 countries? Naaahhh, that's way to obvious.

seamus

Originally posted by BrianD
The son could easily run up a charge ringing premium rate numbers. They could do a dozen other things that could run up a huge phone bill in the absence of parental control without even going near the computer.

My point is that he's not trying to ring premium numbers.
It's a bit like a son having a party when his parents are gone away, only for a few miscreants to appear and rob the place blind while the son sleeps. This happens quite frequently. Should the insurance company tell them "tough, you should have educated your son in securing your household"?

Ripwave

Originally posted by BrianD
In regard to the cost of the call...
Eircom may not have any control over this. Certain countries are more costlier to reach and may charge more for calls to be routed accross their network. I am sure Eircom just add their standard margin to some inter-phone company rate that has been negotiated.

Oh yes, big bad Guinea Bissau really put the squeeze on eircom and forced them to pay a much, much higher rate than every other operator.

Not.

Ripwave

Originally posted by BrianD
The bottom line is that it is

that eircom are making extortionate profits from the victims of these diallers. If eircom were charging these calls at or near cost (including whatever the international termination charges are), then they wouldn't have any culpability. But they're not - eircom are making more money on these calls than they are sending to whoever makes money on the other end of these calls.

That is the bottom line!

dahamsta

Deja vu all over again.

eircomtribunal

While I understand that ComReg's consumer guide is not meant to be the final solution, I really dislike most of the advice in the brochure.

like: "be cautious when entering unknown websites" -what means unknown websites? What means "cautious"?

"Regularly view your internet settings"- How often? One hour on a band 13 number costs 216 euros, 10 minutes cost 36 euros.

How do I make my "children and other users of the computer [...] aware of the risks of surfing certain websites"? What are "certain" websites?

"You could bar access to premium rate or international numbers but consult your telecom supplier about making voice calls." I need not consult my Telco "about making voice calls" should I bar international calls, as my Telco has taken care of that already and made it impossible to opt out of band 13 without opting out of all international calls.


I'd be interested to get more observations (and perhaps there are even positive points in it?) on ComReg's consumer guide.
I'll copy it here:



" COMREG CONSUMER GUIDE – Modem Hi-jacking using dialler programs

It has come to ComReg’s attention that an increased number of consumers have had their Internet (dial-up modem) settings changed without their knowledge or consent. As a result they have incurred excessive telephone charges with charges over €5 per minute instead of the normal rate which varies between 1c and 5c. Accordingly ComReg has produced this consumer guide to inform consumers about the issue of Modem Hi-jacking using dialler programmes.

About ComReg
ComReg is responsible for the regulation of the electronic communications (telecommunications, radio- communications and broadcasting transmission) and the postal sectors.

What are dialler programmes?
An increasing number of websites are using dialler programmes as an alternative payment method to credit cards. It’s a way of charging the consumer through their normal telephone bill – similar to other premium rate services. If you access websites offering content in this way you will be requested to download a piece of software known as an Internet dialler. This software controls the modem connected to your computer and telephone line. To date, the use of dialler programmes has generally been linked to adult websites; however they are increasingly available on other sites offering premium content.

So what is the issue?
The problem arises for those consumers who are not aware that they have downloaded a dialler programme. Unscrupulous sites may not make clear that you are installing software on your computer or changing the dial up settings for your internet access. They may even mute the dialling noises that your modem makes to hide the fact that the modem has disconnected from your normal ISP and is re-dialling a different number. Essentially these providers are hi-jacking your modem settings. Very often consumers only realise that they have been a victim when they receive their telephone bill with high call charges to International or premium rate numbers.

Typical signs of Modem Hi-jacking?
• As a general rule you can hear your modem disconnect and dial-up again.
• If you receive an unexpectedly high telephone bill, which lists an unknown international telephone number or premium rate number.
• If you receive a telephone bill from a telephone company other than your normal telephone provider.
• An unfamiliar short-cut icon appears on your desktop.
• If you are online and cannot send emails.

Measures you can take to address the issue
It is important that consumers are aware that this issue exists and exercise vigilance when accessing the Internet. In particular:
• Be cautious when entering any unknown websites or when clicking on popup boxes.
• Regularly view your Internet settings and check the telephone number your computer is dialling to connect to the Internet.
• if you are online and cannot send an email through your email account immediately check your settings.
• Turn up the volume on your modem so you can hear whether your modem has disconnected and is attempting to re-dial.
• Remove any connections or icons on your desktop that are unfamiliar.
• Turn off your computer and modem when not in use.
• Ensure your children and other users of the computer are aware of the risks of surfing certain websites.
• Set up password protection for access to your computer and the Internet.
• You could bar access to premium rate or international numbers but consult your telecom supplier about making voice calls.
• You should contact your ISP, they should provide you with information on how you can reduce your risk.

Questions to ask your ISP

• How can you easily check dial up network settings on your computer.
• Ask if they have filters available or if they could recommend a good filter from an Internet software supplier.
• How to install these filters which block access to websites based on a list of prohibited websites or a list of acceptable websites set by you.
• Ask them if there is monitoring software available. This can be purchased and installed on your computer to compile a history of websites visited by your computer for review by you.

Who can I complain to?
You should initially contact your ISP or telephone service provider to make a complaint about your Internet service.

ComReg will be consulting with industry within the coming weeks with the aim of having consumer protection measures put in place to address the problem.

How can I contact ComReg? You can contact ComReg in a number of ways: By Phone (LoCall): 1890 229 668 (9.00am to 5.30pm) By Fax: 01 804 9680 By Email: consumerline@comreg.ie By Post: ComReg Consumer Team Irish Life Centre Block DEF Lower Abbey Street Dublin 1"

P.

BrianD

Should the insurance company tell them "tough, you should have educated your son in securing your household"?

Nope, the probably pay out depending and then the say the above when they increase the premium!

Ripwave, I have never read so much drivel in my life!

If your PC rings a number anywhere in the world you pay the cost. It's your responsibility and this is pretty straightforwatd It's really irrelevant how much Eircom charge for the call. Let me state that again IRRELEVANT. It is ridiculous to suggest that Eircom is a party to or is in cahoots with the porn dialer.

The consumer has a responsibilty and trying to blame Eircom for their misfortune is laughable. Operate your PC in a responsible manner and you would probably would never hear of Band 13 countries and the cost of calls there.

Typical Irish attidude - blame somebody else for your problems.

That is the bottom line.

BrianD

While I understand that ComReg's consumer guide is not meant to be the final solution, I really dislike most of the advice in the brochure

Why? Is it requiring the consumer to assume some sort of responsible and reasonable behaviour? That consumers do need to think sometime and are not some sort of helpless creatures.

Sorry Moderator, I can see your point exactly!

watty

A normal profit margin is 2% to 60% depending on the kind of business.

(Supermarkets might be 5% and "smart" fashoin shops 60%).

The profit margin on the Guinea Bisseau must be 80% to 95% for Eircom. If that is not taking unfair advantage of "unwitting victims" I don't know what is.

It is as if normally a taxi ride to the regional Hospital is €5, but if you have been hit crossing the road by a joyrider because you weren't carefull enough, the taxi man then charges €500 to take you to hostipal, telling you it was you own fault.

Yes BrianD, people should be more carefull. But Eircom are obviosly exploiting the victims. The fact it is "their own fault" does not legitimise the huge profit.

The Brigadier

Watty, if Eircom bought their calls to Band13 RETAIL from Vartec, they would be making close to a 300% Markup on some countries.

Now we can assume that Eircom are getting the calls cheaper than Vartec's Retail prices....

oscarBravo

Originally posted by BrianD
It's really irrelevant how much Eircom charge for the call. Let me state that again IRRELEVANT. It is ridiculous to suggest that Eircom is a party to or is in cahoots with the porn dialer.

I've yet to see you offer a possible justification for Eircom's charging so much for these particular calls, over and above what they charge for any other calls, and over and above what anyone else charges for them.

You're very quick to tell us Eircom couldn't possibly have a nefarious motive for these artificially inflated prices, but I haven't seen you offer a reasonable commercial motive.

watty

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Watty, if Eircom bought their calls to Band13 RETAIL from Vartec, they would be making close to a 300% Markup on some countries.

Now we can assume that Eircom are getting the calls cheaper than Vartec's Retail prices....

yess you get the point. Mmarkup and margin arn't the same thing.

If you get it FREE and sell it any ANY price, that is 100% margin and infinite% markup

so I think 95% margin might be 2000% markup (My mental arithmetic isn't great though).

The Brigadier

Watty...sorry, too early in the morning..

I was just trying to emphasise your point more. I am in full agreement with you old chum

Ripwave

Originally posted by BrianD
Ripwave, I have never read so much drivel in my life!

You're obviously not reading your own posts, then!

If your PC rings a number anywhere in the world you pay the cost. It's your responsibility and this is pretty straightforwatd It's really irrelevant how much Eircom charge for the call. Let me state that again IRRELEVANT. It is ridiculous to suggest that Eircom is a party to or is in cahoots with the porn dialer.

Because you obviously haven't bothered reading my posts.

I didn't say that eircom are in cahoots with the porn merchants. I said that eircom are making more money from these porn diallers than the porn merchants are. Eircom don't have to make any agreement with the porn merchants to profit from these calls, because eircom can charge whatever they like for calls to these countries. They won't lose any legitimate business, because there isn't any to lose, but they still take their "cut" from every phone call made by these porn diallers.

The point at issue is whether this "cut" is deliberately extortionate. The fact that eircom charge far more than other providers for calls to these countries tells us that eircom is not just covering their costs and making a reasonable margin on these calls.

The consumer has a responsibilty and trying to blame Eircom for their misfortune is laughable. Operate your PC in a responsible manner and you would probably would never hear of Band 13 countries and the cost of calls there.

Eircom aren't responsible for the installation of the installation of these porn diallers. Eircom are fully responsible for the extortionate rates that they charge for calls to Band 13 countries.

Typical Irish attidude - blame somebody else for your problems.

Typical Irish attidude - spout off without bothering to actually listen to what's being said.

BrianD

Ripwave I have read all your posts!

The is a strong inference from all your postings that Eircom are deliberately pricing their calls to Band 13 countries to benefit from porn diallers. Yet, there are many other reasons to explain pricing to these countries. I would hazard a guess that the amount of revenue generated by diallers for Eircom probably borders on insignificant.

You seem to constantly bring Eircom into the debate about porn diallers for no real reason. It is certainly not Eircoms fault that these porn diallers are downloaded onto PC's so why bring in them into the arguement? Whatever telecom operator you use you are still facing a substantial bill. Calls to Band 13 from any country have to be expensive otherwise the diallers wouldn't exist.

In fairness, not all the content of my post was in response to Ripwave but to some of the other postings.

I still believe it is ridiculous that any law should be brought in to prevent any phone company billing a subscriber for calls made by diallers that are installed on their computer.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by BrianD
Ripwave I have read all your posts!

Yet, there are many other reasons to explain pricing to these countries.

Give us 1 reason why Eircom have the markup that they do on these calls?

And it is Markup......all the other operators are able to undercut by at least a FACTOR of two.

sceptre

Originally posted by BrianD
The is a strong inference from all your postings that Eircom are deliberately pricing their calls to Band 13 countries to benefit from porn diallers.

Less inference and more blatant accusation. That's the accusation the thread started with.

Calls to Band 13 from any country have to be expensive otherwise the diallers wouldn't exist.

Band 13 hasn't been created by the people running the diallers - it's been created by Eircom. I know I'm stating the obvious there but it's important to re-state that at this point. Calls to some of those countries from germany now cost 35c/min. Calls with Eircom are ten times that.

The responsibility for the initial installation is a distinct issue (for obvious reasons that have nothing to do with Eircom at all). That's why I shifted that discussion to another thread still open for business. The sole issue here is whether Eircom are in fact price-gouging or not once the diallers have been installed by hook or crook. My own thoughts (which are somewhat immaterial) are that they are but I'll happily hear any reasoned argument that includes an actual reason why they are not (because the proposition in the first post of this thread is that they are and evidence appears to indicate that the cost to Eircom doesn't bear a resemblance to the cost to the consumer). Otherwise we're stuck in a cyclical "there must be a reason... no there isn't" argument that acts as an insult to the intelligence of people far dumber than I (and I'm not that smart).

(& obviously for the record I'm talking with my mod hat off)

The Brigadier

Originally posted by sceptre
I'm not that smart

I didn't want to say it........:eek:

Victor

Originally posted by sceptre
and I'm not that smart

Liar!

Originally posted by BrianD
I would hazard a guess that the amount of revenue generated by diallers for Eircom probably borders on insignificant.

Well we don't know. However, there is anecdotal evidence of people getting bills of several hundred euros (that we hear of, how many simply get paid) and further evidence of eircom's resistance to normalise the situation. What conclusion do you expect people to come to?

Originally posted by BrianD
Whatever telecom operator you use you are still facing a substantial bill.

Perhaps. However, it would appear that eircom, being the dominant operator (with a record of inappropriate and/ or monopolistic behaviour) is exploiting the situation to the detriment of customers. It is making unusual profits on these calls. How many other businesses in other sectors would get away with this?

Originally posted by BrianD
Calls to Band 13 from any country have to be expensive otherwise the diallers wouldn't exist.

Here you fail to appreciate one the the fundamentals of the telecoms (and many other) business, idle infrastructure earns no money. The marginal cost to a telecoms operator of a call is probably well under 10%. Hence total usage / duration and not necessarily call rate counts strongly towards overall profit. Both the dialler operator and eircom benefit from these long durations.

Originally posted by BrianD
I still believe it is ridiculous that any law should be brought in to prevent any phone company billing a subscriber for calls made by diallers that are installed on their computer.

Why? We have laws against all sorts of fraud, blackmail, monopolies, price gouging and sharp trading? Surely we can move the line of illegality? It is *undesirable* that eircom are exploiting the situation. That should be stopped.

eircomtribunal

The European Communications Regulators (ERG) have made it explicitly clear in their recent position paper (ERG Common Position; Appropriate remedies in the new regulatory framework 3300rreevv11) that excessive pricing is a reason for regulatory intervention:
"2.3.3.2 Exploitative behaviour
Excessive pricing: According to economic analysis, prices can be considered excessive if they allow the undertaking to sustain profits higher than it could expect to earn in a competitive market (super-normal profits). Undertakings with market power will usually set their prices above costs, at a level which maximizes their profits given consumers’ demand. As quantity, consumer surplus, and total surplus (total welfare) fall short of their values under competitive conditions in such a case, there is potential for regulatory intervention."

Eircom's 360cent per minute at all times Band 13 is an obvious candidate.
The fact that Eircom clandestinely included an African country (and it will be hard for Eircom to convince anybody that this was not done for the sole reason of cashing in on the Internet crooks operating from there) into what they advertise as "Certain Pacific Islands" should not be forgotten when ComReg examine this case.

P.

Our man in Havana

Comreg will never examine the case:(

The Brigadier

What Ireland needs is some sort of regulatory body to regulate the Telecoms industry in Ireland.

BrianD

It is making unusual profits on these calls. How many other businesses in other sectors would get away with this?

I thought you said that nobody called these countries anyway! Plus in your nanny state that protects against all the "what if" scenarios you'll be bailed out by some generous indfutry regulator.

In relation to excessive pricing, it seems obvious that any call to Band 13 is for the purpose of adult entertainment or online gambling. One would hardly throw the book at Eircom for Band 13 pricing - we don't mind the excessive pricing for calls to mobiles but we do have a problem with calls to Diego Garcia! Therefore regulating these calls would hardly top the priorities of any communications regulator. (Some people (in theory!!) could even object as the dialler replaces a credit card as the method of payment. Think of all those adult entertainment fans who can't get a credit card!)

The onus still goes back to each telephone user to secure their line and it is still irrelevant how much Eircom charges. A dialer calling an Irish mobile number will still generate a whopper of a bill. As the most expensive carrier in the market Eircom will be more expensive for Band 13. Though somebody should point out where Guinea Bissau is not a Pacific Island. Using any Irish operator, a call to a Band 13 country will be significantly more expensive than any other International number.

I would see getting rid of porn diallers as more of a pressing issue then bringing down the charges to Band 13 countries.

oscarBravo

I dunno, maybe I didn't state my question clearly enough, or something.

BrianD: Can you offer one reasonable explanation for why Eircom created an international band consisting only of countries that are host to pr0n dialers, and charge way over the odds for it?

Thank you.

sceptre

I was obviously speaking to an empty room with my last post ("sole issue" and so on)

I think oscarBravo's question is pretty clear though.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by BrianD
Though somebody should point out where Guinea Bissau is not a Pacific Island.

To whom should this be pointed out?

The Brigadier

BrianD...look at a Map....Guinea Bisseau is in West Africa.

BrianD

What I was saying is that somebody should point out to Eircom that Guinea Bissau is not a pacific island.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by BrianD
Though somebody should point out where Guinea Bissau is not a Pacific Island.

Sorry BrianD you were not very clear on that.

We are all still waiting for one reason from you though as to why Eircom are charging the rates they are.