Eircom's p**n racketeering

Our man in Havana

Have the national papers been told of this situation. Bring it to national coverage.

Tom Dunne

Originally posted by BrianD
The bottom line is that it is still the parents responsibility to secure the computer. This can start with denying access it to it to educating the users in how to spot these diallers.

Right, I've sat on the sideline for long enough, time to add my tuppence worth.

BrianD, I think you are missing a fundamental point with regards to these porn diallers. I would guesstimate that 90% of them are installed on Irish PC's without the user's knowledge or permission.

As a techy, I have been asked by various friends/family members about unusual phone bills/internet sessions. In all cases these have been family PC's with, er, young men, in the clan. Not one of them were ever aware that such a thing as a porn dialler existed, let alone how to recognise it when it is installed.

The problem as I see it, is that Eircom is profiting from this ignorance by charging excessive rates to numbers it knows these porn diallers ring.

That is exploitation and Eircom shouldn't be allowed get away with it. I do not feel it is a valid arguement to say that Irish PC users are to blame for not locking down their PC's with the likes of Ad-aware, Spybot, etc.

pork99

Originally posted by BrianD
What I was saying is that somebody should point out to Eircom that Guinea Bissau is not a pacific island.

LOL. Would you not think Eircom already know that?

BrianD

This arguement will continue in circles ad infinitum. It's pretty obvious that some people believe that "business" is a soft touch and should bail them out when they themselves are the author of their own misfortune.

In response to You Mr. Dunne. I am not missing a fundamental point as you say. I am well aware that porn diallers are often downloaded without either the PC users consent or knowledge. I would even go so far as to say that almost all dialers are downloaded without the user being aware of the fact.


Unfortunately its a big bad world out there and it's the responsibility of the user as an operator of computer and telecoms equipment to be aware of the issues that may affect them and take the necessary measures. This is where both ComReg and the various operators do need to be more proactive in educating their consumers about issues that may affect them. At the same time, consumers aren't helpless and can very simply secure their telephone line against diallers.

The problem is not with Eircom profiteering. The problem is with consumers unwittingly downloading porn diallers. All operators charge considerably higher rates to these Band 13 countries than other international destinations, Eircom happens to be the most expensive of the lot. As nearly all calls to Band 13 countries are for adult entertainment or online gambling I'm not surprised that all the operators cash in on it,

So you do not feel it's the responsibilty of the consumer to lock down their PC's????? So who the hell does it then? It is the most VALID ARGUEMENT!!!! Secure your computer and you will NEVER have a problem with porn diallers! Eircom can charge what they want and it will not affect you.

sceptre

Take it to this thread Brian. I'm sorry to say it but you've truly missed the point on this one. Totally and utterly.

Any issues or discussion on the installation of the diallers will be moved to that thread as I said above. It's what it's there for and it's why I split it off. I'm sorry to say it but you missed the boat on that statement as well. Totally and utterly.

<mod hat on>
As I said above the argument will continue in a dumb circle as long as people discuss the responsibility for the initial install. Different thread, still there. Or any other new thread to discuss whose responsibility it is for the dialler install (to some extent, probably even a great or total extent it may be the user's, but this thread was discussing the price of the calls, nothing more. I'm rather dismayed that some (easily more than one) people appear not to be able to see the distinction between "rogue dialler installed on user's computer" and "telecom company charging for the call"). Somewhere else, not here, different thread. It's a pointless and worthless discussion.
<mod hat off>

oscarBravo

Two missed opportunities to answer the question since I asked it for the second time: I'm going to take that as a tacit admission from BrianD that he knows he's wrong about this.

There is no valid excuse for Eircom to charge what it does for these calls, and there is equally no excuse for a communications regulator that seems unwilling or unable to do anything about it.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by BrianD
This argument will continue in circles ad infinitum.

(My answer to your post moved to the other thread does feel lonely over there, so – sceptre allowing – I'll post it here as well. I am not so sure about the advantage of a strict separation of these issues.)

Brian,

To your Nanny State argument only so much: Look beyond that phrase. The situation is not that black and white. We have in general a system of checks, balances and safeguards, of consumer protection/rights and consumer responsibilities and you would not like to live without this.
You find it normal that you insurance has to do what it promised in the brochure, your bank has to advertise the annual interest of loans etc. It's not one-sided, there is always responsible consumer attitude asked for as well. And the business world has no problem with this.

On the dialler issue: It is simply not acceptable that a quasi monopolist supplier, or one with significant market share, as it is called now, like Eircom, does not contribute to minimise the damage of third parties (the crooks who operate stealth diallers), but instead does everything to maximise its profits on the back of the scam.

While the tech savvy will be able to protect him/herself against the dialler, the people who we want to embrace the Internet (and do not yet for a variety of reasons) will have another hurdle in front of them. Let us not underestimate the deterrent factor this has on many people.

Germany's ruling that a customer is not liable for telephone bills run up by dialler's which installed itself by stealth, has had the following effect: As now the German Telco is in danger to run up huge bills against other providers like Cable and Wireless (who for example run the Diego Garcia business – and basically are in bed with the scam operators), because it can not only not make a profit from its customers' dialler induced calls to Diego Garcia, but cannot even get any money for these calls, it suddenly got interested in finding out who these crooks are and how to block their numbers etc.

It makes much more sense for the experts of Deutsche Telecom to block the scam as they are higher up on the pyramid of things: Why should millions of Internet users shoulder the sole [that's what you seem to suggest] responsibility for something (and invariably fail in big numbers) that can be solved higher up? Of course no Telco would be interested to do such a thing, as long as the status quo is so much more profitable.

All that has nothing to do with Nanny State, but with intelligently responding to challenges by setting self-regulatory conditions.


You say it is simple to protect against diallers. I know that using a Mac or Linux or using broadband (provided no normal phone connection for a fax for example is there) fully protects against diallers, but apart from that? Firewalls certainly don't.

Would you mind giving your advice how to simply protect one's computer against unwanted diallers?

Do you think Comreg's advice, which I copied earlier, is any good? Which part of it? What would you add? What would you take out?

P.

watty

And if Macs (5%) or (Linux 30% servers, 6% Desktops) got as popular as Windows, they would be targeted by "diallers" and "viruses/trojans/worms" just as much and in case of Apples, more successfully.

BrianD

Would you mind giving your advice how to simply protect one's computer against unwanted diallers?

How about not downloading it when prompted.

Gurgle

How about not downloading it when prompted.

Yes, exactly.

When the message pops up with "would you like to download and install this porn dialler which is going to cost you the price of a new Fiat between now and when your phone bill arrives"

Simply click 'no'

dahamsta

Originally posted by BrianD
How about not downloading it when prompted.

Another Boards poster that doesn't understand the concept of reading other people's posts. Or do you just choose to ignore them BrianD? Little from column A, little from column B? :rolleyes:

Posters like this are best left to their own devices. They're a waste of time, energy and space.

adam

BrianD

Dahamsta... I presume that you will withdraw your comment and apologise for your posting within 24 hrs.

I have read all the posting on the subject. Many of the "what if" over engineered scenarios simply avoid the obvious responsibilty of the consumer to insure that their phone lines are secured. The simple answer is and will always be not to download diallers. If you own a PC and/or a phone line it is your responsibility to manage it and not the provider. Their is no point in trying to shift the blame onto Eircom for no good reason. They are expensive for Band 13 calls but then again so is everybody else. If calls to band 13 countries are reduced the porn diallers will move somewhere else. I

n response to OscarBravo, there is a valid excuse for Eircom to charge what they do charge for Band 13 calls. A very valid excuse - they are the service provider and they decide the pricing. That is their perogative as a businesss whether you like it or not. Should the telco carry the buck for the consumer as in Germany? No way. Can the telco be more proactive with this issue? Of course they can but they can only do in the context of a framework involving consumer, regulator and other industry players.

Instead of addressing the real issues about porn diallers many of the posters have used this issue for the purposes of a pathetic rant against Eircom. What are the real issues?

1)Personal responsibilty of owning and managing PC/telecoms equipment. What the user can do to prevent porn diallers installing and operating on their system.
2)What can the industry (ISP's/telcos and regulators) do through a code of practice or legislation. (note: this line has been amended by the author)

But no, most of the posters blather on about how Eircom are to blame for hard luck cases instead of tackling the rear issues. I have heard so many "what if" and "over engineered" situations on this topic that it borders on the ridiculous. However this is endemic in Irish society where somebody else is always there to pick up the tab for a lack of personal responsibility and plain ordinary stupidity.

My final word.

seamus

Originally posted by BrianD
Dahamsta... I presume that you will withdraw your comment and apologise for your posting within 24 hrs.

I have read all the posting on the subject. Many of the "what if" over engineered scenarios simply avoid the obvious responsibilty of the consumer to insure that their phone lines are secured. The simple answer is and will always be not to download diallers.

dahamsta's perfectly valid comment is that you do not always get a popup dialog asking to install a dialer. They can, and do, install themselves through backdoors, without requiring any kind of user interaction. Obviously you overlooked that when you read all posts in the thread....

dahamsta

Originally posted by BrianD
Dahamsta... I presume that you will withdraw your comment and apologise for your posting within 24 hrs.

<laughter>

My final word.

<applause>

oscarBravo

Originally posted by BrianD
In response to OscarBravo, there is a valid excuse for Eircom to charge what they do charge for Band 13 calls. A very valid excuse - they are the service provider and they decide the pricing. That is their perogative as a businesss whether you like it or not.

As a near-monopoly, it shouldn't be. In any country with effective regulation, it isn't. You've touched on that point, and I'll address it in a second.

This leaves unaddressed the real point of this thread: whether it's morally right for a business to behave in this way. You may enjoy fooling yourself otherwise, but these dialers are a racket, and in the main are designed to extort money from people without their knowledge or consent. There's a separate thread for the argument about who is responsible for their installation, but for me it's this simple: Eircom have taken the opportunity to make extraordinary profits from a scam. No matter who's at fault in a scam, jumping on an immoral bandwagon is immoral.

You tried to imply earlier that Eircom may have had a valid commercial reason - such as the cost to them of these calls - for charging what they do. Your reply as quoted above indicates that you know the truth:; this is a cynical exercise by Eircom, with no excuse other than greed.

Should the telco carry the buck for the consumer as in Germany? No way. Can the telco be more proactive with this issue? Of course they can but they can only do in the context of a framework involving consumer, regulator and other industry players.

It's very simple - make band 13 opt-in by default. Then only people who actually want to get ripped off by dialers, or those with relatives in obscure American airbases, need to allow calls to these destinations. Nobody loses except the scam artists, and the cynical profiteers.

Instead of addressing the real issues about porn diallers many of the posters have used this issue for the purposes of a pathetic rant against Eircom. What are the real issues?

1)Personal responsibilty of owning and managing PC/telecoms equipment. What the user can do to prevent porn diallers installing and operating on their system.

Which is the subject of another thread, which you've assiduously avoided.

2)What can the industry (ISP's/telcos and regulators) do through a code of practice or legislation to stop diallers being installed without a PC owners consent.

What I said above. Why haven't Eircom voluntarily done this instead of waiting for an inept regulator to force them to do so?

[edit: I just realised I misread what you wrote. I'll answer it on the other thread.]

But no, most of the posters blather on about how Eircom are to blame for hard luck cases instead of tackling the rear issues. I have heard so many "what if" and "over engineered" situations on this topic that it borders on the ridiculous. However this is endemic in Irish society where somebody else is always there to pick up the tab for a lack of personal responsibility and plain ordinary stupidity.

You forgot unadulterated corporate greed.

My final word.

Whatever.

bealtine

quote:

---

Originally posted by BrianD

n response to OscarBravo, there is a valid excuse for Eircom to charge what they do charge for Band 13 calls. A very valid excuse - they are the service provider and they decide the pricing.

---

Blatant profiteering is not a valid excuse. No feeble attempts to blame the customer are vaild. Shift the blame, duck and whinge, this is the modus operandi of the new Ireland.

quote:

---

used this issue for the purposes of a pathetic rant against Eircom.

---

That's perhaps it is eircom that is pathetic otherwise the posters wouldn't have
so much ire and anger now would they?

quote:

---

instead of tackling the rear issues.

---

Sounds like the place you use for typing...

Victor

But no, Eircom blather on about how customers are to blame for hard luck cases instead of tackling the real issues. I have heard so many "what if" and "over engineered" situations on this topic that it borders on the ridiculous. However this is endemic in Irish society where somebody else is always there to pick up the tab for a lack of responsibility and plain ordinary stupidity.

[edited for someoneelse's typo]

vibe666

a swedish phone company offers calls to diego garcia for 63c per minute. i lost the link but a quick google should find you a few people throughout europe charging about the same price.

now the thing is that these porn diallers are a scam, plain and simple. the percentage of calls that go through to diego garcia that are legitimate must be below 1% of the total incoming calls given the small number of residence and that most if not all military communications would most likely be routed through secure military comms systems rather than the PSTN.

so if this is the case that 99% of calls going to this location are porn diallers (and most of them unwanted) then is it fair that eircom charge over 5 times the going rate for these calls in full knowledge that people can rack up €1000+ phone bills in the 2 months that it takes for them to ever see a bill (bearing in mind you can't check a running total of your bill until it's already been sent to you).

so these people who make porn diallers that send you via diego garcia are without any doubt doing it to fraudulently extract money out of people without their knowledge and fully aware that this is the case eircom have hiked prices to these numbers to over 5 times what they should be so that they can make even more money out of it.

making money out of a fraudulent activity whether directly or indirectly is still fraud. eircom do indeed know what's happening and they are going out of their way to make some more cash out of it.

read the title of this thread: 'Eircom's p**n racketeering'. it says it all.

animaal

To my thinking, Eircom themselves are not producing the dialers, but are purposely profiting from the criminal acts of others.

By not allowing such numbers to be blocked, they're also increasing the vulnerability of people to such dialers, thus increasing the profitability for the dialer creators, as well as for themselves.

This behaviour would be similar to me setting up a website called "StolenLaptops.com", where laptops can be easily (and anonymously) bought and sold. I am not stealing any laptops or receiving stolen goods, I am just profiting from laptop owners' stupidity in allowingothers' their laptops to be stolen!

vibe666

Originally posted by animaal
To my thinking, Eircom themselves are not producing the dialers, but are purposely profiting from the criminal acts of others.

what he said.;)

Mr E

BT cuts off dialler scammers. Clicky clicky.

I applaud the way BT handled this.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by TmB

I applaud the way BT handled this.

I like this: "BT will donate its percentage of charges to the charity ChildLine."

Eircom needs to be asked to donate its percentage of charges on the (360cent/minute) band 13 calls (the overwhelming bulk of them are caused by fraudsters) retrospectively.

P.

ElNino

Originally posted by TmB
BT cuts off dialler scammers. Clicky clicky.

I applaud the way BT handled this.

I was just going to post the above link.

The telco said it would not make any money out of rogue dialling software. Although the bulk of charges go to the service provider, BT will donate its percentage of charges to the charity ChildLine.

This really shows Eircon up. Their bottom line is going to suffer when they are forced to follow suit.

Ripwave

Originally posted by ElNino
This really shows Eircon up. Their bottom line is going to suffer when they are forced to follow suit.

Forced? Who's going to force them to follow suit?