[articles] The Provos and the Docks

Originally posted by irish1
Different party's, people have served there time for previous crimes.

The point is,having served their time or not, they were convicted of a crime and not thrown out of their party-Sinn Féin.

The other main stream parties tend to throw out members who are found to be corrupt or at least withdraw the whip.

Bertie and a lot of other ministers are alleged to have met Gilmartin have they been thrown out of the party???

Hang on now, you are using the word "alleged" here to suit your argument....
Yet when questions are asked of Sinn Féin you look for proof.

Thats not a very consistent approach to take, it's applying your own standards differently and is tandamount to hypocrisy.

My statement stands, the mainstream parties generally throw out those found corrupt, does Sinn Féin throw out or investigate convicted criminals?

It's important, for the rule of law must be paramount.

Villain

Originally posted by Cork
If those members of SF named as on the IRA army council feel so agrieved - they can sue the newspaper.

They should bloody well sue you, considering all the accusations you have been thrown around without proof!!

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman


Hang on now, you are using the word "alleged" here to suit your argument....
Yet when questions are asked of Sinn Féin you look for proof.

I was pointing out that not everyone

found to be involved via the tribunal are thrown out of that party.

I never said they were guilty now did I, I very cleary said alleged

Originally posted by Earthman


My statement stands, the mainstream parties generally throw out those found corrupt, does Sinn Féin throw out or investigate convicted criminals?

It's important, for the rule of law must be paramount.

They have served their time for their crimes, they were not involved in corruption btw they were in involved in Gunrunning and other illegal activites.

Originally posted by irish1

I never said they were guilty now did I, I very cleary said alleged

But you asked have they been thrown out of their party??? in an answer to my question has anyone been thrown out of Sinn Féin.

You are clearly trying (unsucessfully by the way) to avoid my first question about both parties having different standards regarding what to do about corruption.
And you are avoiding my second relatied question regarding who has convicted criminals amongst their membership, SF or FF?

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
But you asked have they been thrown out of their party??? in an answer to my question has anyone been thrown out of Sinn Féin.

You are clearly trying (unsucessfully by the way) to avoid my first question about both parties having different standards regarding what to do about corruption.
And you are avoiding my second relatied question regarding who has convicted criminals amongst their membership, SF or FF?

Originally posted by Irish1 They have served their time for their crimes, they were not involved in corruption btw they were in involved in Gunrunning and other illegal activites.

*sigh*
Thats not answering the question.
Regardless of the fact that they have been released from jail, they are convicted criminals.

A murderer for instance who is in jail for 14 years and released is always a murderer.
A thief is always a thief.

My statement on the issue was that at least the mainstream parties throw people out for those activities.
Hence ultimately they are seen to have higher standards in that regard.

monument

note the word in red...

"AN IRA commander, suspected of controlling crime and racketeering in Dublin port, has been arrested in a garda sting operation."

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
My statement on the issue was that at least the mainstream parties throw people out for those activities.
Hence ultimately they are seen to have higher standards in that regard.

In regard to criminal activity (in the past) ,yes, in regard to corruption I don't think so.

I cant see what else you want me to answer.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by monument
note the word in red...

"AN IRA commander, suspected of controlling crime and racketeering in Dublin port, has been arrested in a garda sting operation."

If this was proven to be true, and if it was proven that Gerry Adams is a leading member of the IRA Army Council, would you continue to vote for Sinn Féin? If these were true, I believe that anyone that votes for SF to be seriously deluded, and/or have a seriously deranged moral viewpoint. I would actually go so far as to say that I would be highly ashamed that Irish citizens could vote for such people.

If it was true.

Villain

IF Bertie Ahern did meet Gilmartin and if he knew of P Flynn's corruption etc would anyone in their right mind vote FF??

Theres a lot of this going around, FF and the PD's are trying to make it look like SF are the only party with issues at the moment, have a read of Gilmartins evidence and see what the Party that Currently RULES this Country was alleged to be up to!!

There was an excellent article in Ireland on Sunday yesterday, by a retired bus driver in his 70's who go's to all the tribunals, wuite enligthening.

monument

Originally posted by ReefBreak
If this was proven to be true, and if it was proven that Gerry Adams is a leading member of the IRA Army Council, would you continue to vote for Sinn Féin? If these were true, I believe that anyone that votes for SF to be seriously deluded, and/or have a seriously deranged moral viewpoint. I would actually go so far as to say that I would be highly ashamed that Irish citizens could vote for such people.

If it was true.

I'd say the same thing about FF and the PD on their policies alone.

A goverment which allows an army currently fighting an illegal war to land on “our soil” - I'd be highly ashamed if an Irish citizen votes for such people again.

No ifs or buts.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
IF Bertie Ahern did meet Gilmartin and if he knew of P Flynn's corruption etc would anyone in their right mind vote FF??

Theres a lot of this going around, FF and the PD's are trying to make it look like SF are the only party with issues at the moment, have a read of Gilmartins evidence and see what the Party that Currently RULES this Country was alleged to be up to!!

There was an excellent article in Ireland on Sunday yesterday, by a retired bus driver in his 70's who go's to all the tribunals, wuite enligthening.

I don't see any corruption regarding the PDs. Until there is any, I will continue to vote for them.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I don't see any corruption regarding the PDs. Until there is any, I will continue to vote for them.

Fair enough but they are in JOINT partnership with FF in the current Goverment!

Mighty_Mouse

Mr Ahern shrugged off suggestions that Michael McDowell’s allegation was inspired by upcoming local elections

What else was he gonna do?

“I don’t want it either to be just rolled over, this issue, where people are saying it’s electioneering.

It is

“It’s not electioneering

As Radiohead once said......................

AN IRA commander, suspected of..............

Suspected.........etc

The convicted IRA killer was arrested last month after a year-long garda operation, codenamed Raccoon, set up to smash robberies at Dublin port orchestrated by criminals on behalf of the IRA.

if they do..............would we see one little bit of proof please.........even the evidence ..........indicators.............anything!!

All three men were arrested and questioned. They were released without charge but a file has been sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP).

without proof....................let me see where have we heard this before............. Martin Ferris.................Stormont..................castlerea............. must be something comign up soon...........ah! Elections in June!

The arrest of the key republican will prove an embarrassment for Sinn Fein, which has rejected the justice minister’s attacks. Last weekend, McDowell claimed Sinn Fein members from Northern Ireland were involved in organising “criminal heists” in Dublin port.

When did SF deny that the IRA were involved in any criminal activity?

Mr Ahern shrugged off suggestions that Michael McDowell’s allegation was inspired by upcoming local elections

What else was he gonna do?

“I don’t want it either to be just rolled over, this issue, where people are saying it’s electioneering.

It is

“It’s not electioneering

As Radiohead once said......................

AN IRA commander, suspected of..............

Suspected.........etc

The convicted IRA killer was arrested last month after a year-long garda operation, codenamed Raccoon, set up to smash robberies at Dublin port orchestrated by criminals on behalf of the IRA.

if they do..............would we see one little bit of proof please.........even the evidence ..........indicators.............anything!!

All three men were arrested and questioned. They were released without charge but a file has been sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP).

without proof....................let me see where have we heard this before............. Martin Ferris.................Stormont..................castlerea............. must be something comign up soon...........ah! Elections in June!

The arrest of the key republican will prove an embarrassment for Sinn Fein, which has rejected the justice minister’s attacks. Last weekend, McDowell claimed Sinn Fein members from Northern Ireland were involved in organising “criminal heists” in Dublin port.

When did SF deny that the IRA were involved in any criminal activity?

Operation Raccoon:

€3m revenue tax scam

investigation into a property company in Britain

Martin Ferris, in connection with the abduction of a local drug dealer.

Sloan, a former IRA prison escapee, for €170,000 on unpaid taxes and interest. It claims Sloan owes the money for work as a taxi driver.

Ah! Come on? The first two give absolutely no information. Ferris ---- i wait with baited breath to see them find anything linking him .......
and FFS - avoiding tax!!! Its hardly a threat to public security! For FF to be listing it as a charge against Shinners is pretty ironic seeing as half the Irish legal system is currently being taken up investigating FF activities!!!!!

Looks like scraping the barrel to me!

Of coarse every prominant Republican and Sinn Fein man is going to be under constant surveilance (harrassment) from security forces!

The latest arrests have confirmed the suspicions ....

Have confirmed nothing , I would say

McDowell’s salvo was the latest in a litany of attacks ... launched the assault last month. ....

Wow! And its not electioneering!

This actually sounds like it was written by FF. Can nobody else here see. Is it some sort of revelation that the IRA racketeer!!? Jesus are we actually switching our focus from "decomissioning" here in boards to something even more ridicolous!.

Where are the crys for Shinners to be thrown out of government ...........etc etc ah! there the are!

But had previously claimed he was in?

When did Gerry Adams claim he was in the IRA?

It is not just the article. THe article merely
backs up statements made by An Taoiseach & the Minister for Justice.

Well now.................hang em high!

That said its highly damaging to Sinn Féin and in normal circumstances

Not the first and wont be the last! As SF grows also watch these type of "once-off" accusation type stories grow.

Racketeering & punishment beatings have to stop. I hope that SF/IRA gets this message. Let them take that message back to their army council.

Im sure its duely noted cork!:D Cork do you ever have anything to offer other than "paisley-like" tablid-headline-type comments to make.
?:p

The other main stream parties tend to throw out members who are found to be corrupt or at least withdraw the whip

And everone involved in the Civil war/war of independance was not allowed to govern!

Your talking about a party coming from a war-time to a peace-time situation here. Allowances should be made as such.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by monument
I'd say the same thing about FF and the PD on their policies alone.

A goverment which allows an army currently fighting an illegal war to land on “our soil” - I'd be highly ashamed if an Irish citizen votes for such people again.

No ifs or buts.

What, the PD-style policies that kept Ireland's unemployment and rate of growth near the top of the Europe during an economic downturn?

As for the Shannon thing, that can be debated either way, and has been already on boards.ie. Nevertheless, I see you took the easy way out by answering a direct question with another question. However, I label you a hypocrite if you refuse to vote FF based on an anti-war stance, yet continue to vote SF, depite the fact that they are linked to terrorists, and have a "private army".

Mighty_Mouse

sorry lads! Didnt think that would take up so much space. If the mods wanna tidy it up a bit (knock the space outta it). Fire ahead,

If this was proven to be true, and if it was proven that Gerry Adams is a leading member of the IRA Army Council, would you continue to vote for Sinn Féin?
.

Yes because it doesnt matter. Whats the difference. Sure Martin Ferris, Martin McGuinness etc have admitted to being members of the IRA.
People who vote SF understand the principles that the IRA operated under, accept the past and respect the 10 years cease-fire.

What would G. Adams specifically matter?

If these were true, I believe that anyone that votes for SF to be seriously deluded, and/or have a seriously deranged moral viewpoint. .

Why? If you do not understand or accept the way the IRA operated throughout the Troubles (I understand and accept) you can still accept the new and dynamic policies offered by SF. Once you believe that the war is truely over of coares (which I do)

I would actually go so far as to say that I would be highly ashamed that Irish citizens could vote for such people.

Well your going to be ashamed of a rapidly increasing number of people

Sparks

Originally posted by ReefBreak
What, the PD-style policies that kept Ireland's unemployment and rate of growth near the top of the Europe during an economic downturn?

Would those be the ones that restricted the freedom of information act, didn't bring in an independent Garda ombudsman with teeth but a pathetic excuse for a complaints board instead, supported an illegal war secretly until they were caught at it, are now busy cracking down on the civil rights of immigrants, trashed the notion of "binding" referenda in Ireland, and cynically overruled High Court rulings and local democracy to put in place a bin tax which in itself is a cynical step towards privatising waste collection, and on top of all that, trashed higher education funding which is the only source of our only natural resource in this country?
Those ones?

I'm no fan of SF, but that doesn't mean I'm going to run to the PDs or FF...

Cork

The PDs and SF have exactly the same policy with regards to Northern Ireland. They both signed up to the consent policy of the Good Friday Agreement.

The report in yesterdays newspaper backed up statements made up Michael Mc Dowell.

Asking for proof is a red herring. Should we all stake out Dublin port? What levels of proof do those engaged in punishment beatings require?

Punishment beatings and racketeering have to stop. I hope SF does condmn these acts of criminality and uses its influence on the IRA to stop such activity.

Does racketeering by the IRA surprise people.

The IRA were involved in a Post Office Raid when they killed Gerry McCabe,

Adams only recently called for the release of those involved with that.

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
must be something comign up soon...........ah! Elections in June!

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of corruption,racketeering and the differing standards in dealing with or tollerating it for a moment...

Are you saying there that these issues should not be raised at all?

After all if theres nothing to hide, then whats the problem?
Mud only sticks if it cannot be cleaned.

My point all along is that the established parties where there has been proven to be a link to undesirable activities, they have disiplined or at least investigated any members found wanting and in certain cases expelled them from their party.

Even the Greens had an incident recently, not related to corruption, but where a T.D held shares in an oil company whose policies werent consistent with Green party thinking.
Now when that came to light he off loaded the shares.

Sinn Féin doesn't appear to have a similar clean up policy regarding its members.
By not having that standard they are open to looking like they don't care or have a disregard for criminality when it involves their members.
Yet at the same time they would want to be in government where laws are made and the enforcement of such laws should be sacrocant.

That for me and many, many others would be a serious difficulty in the perception of Sinn Féin

ReefBreak

must be something comign up soon...........ah! Elections in June!

Sinn Féin Method for Avoiding the Difficult Questions Regarding Criminality (New Entry!!!) #1: Accuse offending politician of "Playing Politics".

Sinn Féin Method for Avoiding the Difficult Questions Regarding Criminality #2: Accuse offending politician of electioneering for upcoming election while forgetting that everything that comes out of an Sinn Féin mouth is also blatant electioneering and stomach-churning hyposcrisy.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Sparks
Would those be the ones that restricted the freedom of information act, didn't bring in an independent Garda ombudsman with teeth but a pathetic excuse for a complaints board instead, supported an illegal war secretly until they were caught at it, are now busy cracking down on the civil rights of immigrants, trashed the notion of "binding" referenda in Ireland, and cynically overruled High Court rulings and local democracy to put in place a bin tax which in itself is a cynical step towards privatising waste collection, and on top of all that, trashed higher education funding which is the only source of our only natural resource in this country?
Those ones?

I vehemently disagree with about 5 of your 7 points above, but to explain why would require a new thread. Interestingly John Waters started his column last Thursday (about the removal of certain planning restrictions on one-off housing) with the following (paraphrased): "This is actually turning out to be a rather good government." I'm beginning to agree with that sentiment. No, he wasn't being sarcastic.

Villain

Originally posted by Cork

Asking for proof is a red herring.

:rolleyes: Cork get real, asking for proof is exactly what anyone would do.
If you were slated on this board for being a corrupt politician wouldn't you like us to have some proof to back up those claims??

Originally posted by Cork

Should we all stake out Dublin port? What levels of proof do those engaged in punishment beatings require?.

Well either find proof or stop throwing around accusations, it's really quite simple Cork, I'm begining to think you don't understand English!!

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
(about the removal of certain planning restrictions on one-off housing) .

That was done for 2 reasons, upcomming elections and de-centralisation

Sparks

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I vehemently disagree with about 5 of your 7 points above, but to explain why would require a new thread.

Indeed.

Interestingly John Waters started his column last Thursday (about the removal of certain planning restrictions on one-off housing) with the following (paraphrased): "This is actually turning out to be a rather good government." I'm beginning to agree with that sentiment. No, he wasn't being sarcastic.

No, and he'd be right if you were an amoralist with friends in the Cabinet and an established fortune. Of course, if you're a working stiff with an aversion to being screwed over and a general impulse to not screw other people over, it doesn't quite ring true.

Cork

Originally posted by irish1
:rolleyes: Cork get real, asking for proof is exactly what anyone would do.

The IRA were involved the Adare Post Office Raid.

Why were the IRA involved in robbing Post Offices?

IS Adams not calling for the early release of those involved?

Villain

Originally posted by Cork
The IRA were involved the Adare Post Office Raid.

Ahh you pick 1 point from the many many you have made.

lol, your hilarious, now I don't mean I'm laughing with you I mean I'm laughing at you!:D

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
Ahh you pick 1 point from the many many you have made.

lol, your hilarious, now I don't mean I'm laughing with you I mean I'm laughing at you!:D

Instead of laughing, why don't you answer the question?
Why were the IRA robbing post offices? And note this is just one incident.

Oh they also murdered a garda while they were robbing the post office. AND they were on a cease-fire at the time.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Instead of laughing, why don't you answer the question?
Why were the IRA robbing post offices? And note this is just one incident.

Oh they also murdered a garda while they were robbing the post office. AND they were on a cease-fire at the time.

I don't speak for the IRA, I vote for SF!!

Reefbreak I'd imagine they robbed the post office for money

Cork

Originally posted by irish1


Reefbreak I'd imagine they robbed the post office for money

Why do they need money at time of ceasefire?

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
I don't speak for the IRA, I vote for SF!!

Reefbreak I'd imagine they robbed the post office for money

Sinn Féin Doublespeak #4: Allow the Shinners to claim credit when the IRA do something "good", e.g. stop murdering people. Disavow any connection with the 'RA when you know it could hurt you, e.g. robbery and garda-murder at a post office.