the new constitution

attica2k

hey what do ya all think of the new european constitution that is supposed to be comming in, in the next few years?


We had a speaker come into our collage to talk to us about it....sounds kinda scary....if it does come in it seems that ireland and most other small european countries wouldn't have much of a say in what goes on......it seems also that we will be handing over most of our power to one man ( that we dont get to choose), the president of europe, not to foget to mention that we bascially will not get the right to choose what we want for our country....the choice will be in europes hands which might as well be just britan, france, germany, and the few other larger countries in europe!

Imposter

Most of these proposals were outlined in the Nice Treaty which the Irish public were [strike]forced[/strike] convinced to vote for. Ok there have been a few changes to some of the proposals as some of the more powerful countries try to get a better deal than the one they already agreed to. So in effect the people have spoken that they want these changes.

rcunning03

hey what do ya all think of the new european constitution that is supposed to be comming in, in the next few years?

Too compromised and weak, I would of liked to see the formation of a state, where we can actually vote for the people that will direct our lives and not the political correct crap we have at the moment, where the EU basically acts as a country but we're not prepared to recognise it as such, so we have no real say in it.

Anyway I believe the Europeans would do a better job of running the country than our back scratching lot.

attica2k

Originally posted by Imposter
So in effect the people have spoken that they want these changes. [/B]

ya but i dont think the people of ireland really knew what they were voting for in the niece treaty, the first time we voted no and the goverment or europe were not very happy about this, so they came to the people again used different langue to make the same treaty sound better,

because we changed our minds, we were percieved as fools- ireland cant make up their minds about anything!

Imposter

Originally posted by attica2k
ya but i dont think the people of ireland really knew what they were voting for in the niece treaty, the first time we voted no and the goverment or europe were not very happy about this, so they came to the people again used different langue to make the same treaty sound better,

because we changed our minds, we were percieved as fools- ireland cant make up their minds about anything!

I agree a large percentage (possibly even a majority) of people didn't know what they were voting for and were just doing as their party wanted. Of course europe weren't happy about it. The reason it passed the second time was because the main parties actually put so effort into promoting it, unlike the first time, in an attempt to save face in Europe. At no stage though did the government ever actually try to debate the issues. They resorted to accusing the anti-treaty side of promoting scare tactics, being racist and lord knows what else.

I don't think we were perceived as fools at all. I think a lot of Europe was relieved we voted no initially as a lot of people thought the treaty was flawed but couldn't do anything because their countries didn't need a referendum for the treaty to be passed.

pdh

Don't worry, we are on the way to a European SuperState. Ireland will take on the role that Leitrim has done in this Free State down the years.

attica2k

ya ok its easy to say dont worry about it, but we will have to worry about it,
at the moment corporation tax is only 25% in ireland the lowest in europe that why we have the large companies in ireland (boston scientific, intel etc), if this new constitution comes in we will not have that any more (not after the next 20 years) and their is no other reeason why they come to ireland, it being an island and it being to expensive 2 hire people and live in (it being almost the highest in ireland)

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Victor

Yes, there are points to disagree with, but others to agree with. And while there has often been a veto available, people have usually been able to buy off that veto in our case.

Originally posted by attica2k
at the moment corporation tax is only 25% in ireland the lowest in europe

the 25% rate only applies to non-trading (e.g. investment) income, not trading (buy-sell, etc.) income. Some countries have no corporation tax.

sovtek

Originally posted by attica2k
ya ok its easy to say dont worry about it, but we will have to worry about it,
at the moment corporation tax is only 25% in ireland the lowest in europe that why we have the large companies in ireland (boston scientific, intel etc), if this new constitution comes in we will not have that any more (not after the next 20 years) and their is no other reeason why they come to ireland, it being an island and it being to expensive 2 hire people and live in (it being almost the highest in ireland)

[OFFTOPIC]So maybe the government should do something to make Ireland less expensive as well as promote Irish business.
I like to know what job you have where you think Irish wages are the reason for the extortionate inflation.
I guess the average PAYE person should be the one bearing the cost of a badly needed infrastructural investment, also to attract that same business? [/OFFTOPIC]

attica2k

if you look at the figures below you can see that the minimum wage level in ireland is one of the highest in europe, as well as that it is an island therefore shipping expenses are incurred by companies in ireland, as well as that the companies that are located in ireland dont have as easy access to the raw materials that they do on the contenient......so the only thing we really have going for us is the low level of coroporation tax

Monthly statutory minimum wage rates
Full-time adult employees, aged 23+

currency In euros (updated 07.01.2004) Date effective**
Belgium 1,233.54
Bulgaria 61.00
Czech Republic 207.20
Estonia 158.50
France 1,215.11
Greece 504.83
Hungary 202.10
Ireland 1,213.33
Latvia 118.95
Lithuania 130.30
Luxembourg 1,402.96
Malta 542.40
Netherlands 1,264.80
Poland 177.06
Portugal 365.60
Romania 67.60
Russian Federation 16.16
Serbia 79.00
Slovakia 148.95
Slovenia 442.60
Spain 460.50
Turkey 179.13
Ukraine 30.29
United Kingdom 1,124.90

p.s think twice when you want to go abroad working....some of the wage levels in these countries are herendous (romania 67.70 a month!!!)

rcunning03

corporation tax is only 25% in ireland

We under fund our public services to pay for that low level of tax, if we are forced to increased our corp. tax, we'd lose a few call center jobs. Personally I don't think closing hospital maternity wards is worth it, just so some people can pick up the phone and say "Good morning! How may I help you today"

There is nothing to worry about though, the 51st and 52nd state of the Untied States of Christendom will never give up their veto on tax, so the european dream of taxes being spent on public services instead of tax incentives to American investors won't happen here.

All Hail Fianna Fail !

Sparks

From RTE:

The Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, and the President of France, Jacques Chirac, have said they want to complete the EU constitution before the Irish presidency ends in June. It is the strongest indication yet that Europe's leaders are ready for final negotiations on the text, after talks in December ended in deadlock.

After talks with Mr Chirac, Mr Ahern told reporters that 'there is now growing support to finish the conclusions by the June council [EU summit in Brussels]'.

'We will continue to work with our colleagues to find those conclusions,' Mr Ahern said. 'By the 17th, 18th of June, that should be completion. If we can do it earlier we will do it earlier, but if not, we will do it by that date,' the Taoiseach added.

Mr Ahern's comments were echoed by the French President, whom EU diplomats had depicted as less keen than others to compromise on the crucial issue of member states' voting power for the sake of an agreement.

'We think it is possible to reach a conclusion on that date,' Mr Chirac said.
The leaders' comments come just ahead of this week's EU summit where a formal decision on restarting the talks will be taken.

Looks like this issue's going to get a lot more concrete in the near future.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by rcunning03
We under fund our public services to pay for that low level of tax, if we are forced to increased our corp. tax, we'd lose a few call center jobs. Personally I don't think closing hospital maternity wards is worth it, just so some people can pick up the phone and say "Good morning! How may I help you today"

So you believe that raising the corporation tax rate would increase overall revenue from corporation tax?

I think this is underestimating the amount of money that is run through Ireland as a result of the low corporation tax, earlier 10% for manufacturing but now 12.5% generally. When the 10% rate was in place, 60% of corporation tax yield was raised at this rate. Less tax overall was paid at the higher rate.

rcunning03

So you believe that raising the corporation tax rate would increase overall revenue from corporation tax?

If they enforced the collection of tax, yeah

SkepticOne

Originally posted by rcunning03
If they enforced the collection of tax, yeah

Ah now lets be realistic.

Seriously, if the other EU coutries got their way and imposed corporation tax "harmonisation" on Ireland, and the multinationals stopped paying taxes in Ireland you believe that somehow the overall take would go up?

rcunning03

If it was harmonised all over Europe and the EU impose penalities on companies that up and left to India (or wherever), as the democrats in the US are talking about, they wouldn't have a choice and I don't accept that large multinationals paying their fair share of tax would destroy them(paye works manage to pay over 20%). Anyway I would much prefer an indigineous industry than having to rely on multinationals and having economic policy dictated by them.

chill

Originally posted by attica2k
We had a speaker come into our collage to talk to us about it....sounds kinda scary....if it does come in it seems that ireland and most other small european countries wouldn't have much of a say in what goes on......it seems also that we will be handing over most of our power to one man ( that we dont get to choose), the president of europe, not to foget to mention that we bascially will not get the right to choose what we want for our country....the choice will be in europes hands which might as well be just britan, france, germany, and the few other larger countries in europe!

Well first of all it might contribute to your point if you quoted what it is in the Constitution that you object to instead of rambling on ...
Secondly if you paid any attention to the Nice Treaty you would see that small countries are getting MORE not less power.
Thirdly the Irish people chose correctly, and fully informed, that ireland will be better off under Nice and that it is in our long term interests.

If anything in the constitution or Nice causes you such fear then tell us what it is !

Imposter

Originally posted by chill
Secondly if you paid any attention to the Nice Treaty you would see that small countries are getting MORE not less power.
Thirdly the Irish people chose correctly, and fully informed, that ireland will be better off under Nice and that it is in our long term interests.

If anything in the constitution or Nice causes you such fear then tell us what it is !

Small countries are not getting more power. Countries are losing their veto powers on important issues and that has a far more significant effect on the smaller countries than the larger ones.

How do you know that the people were fully informed for the second Nice vote but not the first? You sound like you're just bleating out someones party line.

Victor

Originally posted by chill
Secondly if you paid any attention to the Nice Treaty you would see that small countries are getting MORE not less power.

Only is by "small" you mean Spain and Poland.

I vaguely remember Italians and Germans brow-beating us to accept Nice, it was the only deal in town and we were bad people for politically (not legally) blocking enlargement, then when Nice was passed, they turned their back on it.

bonkey

Originally posted by chill
Thirdly the Irish people chose correctly, and fully informed, that ireland will be better off under Nice and that it is in our long term interests.

I'm curious as to how you can say :

a) "correctly" - unless by correct you mean "in agreement with me".

b) "fully informed" - when we had to have two referenda, you have absolutely no benchmark for making this claim (other than that you agree with the outcome), and most tellingly - you are accusing an Irish person of being not fully informed about Nice!!!

c) will be better off - again, assumption. Nice gives us a better chance, but had we rejected it, there would have been an alternative found, and there is simply no way you or anyone else can know whether or not it would have been a superior choice.

Maybe you could clarify those points for me?

jc

Sparks

Originally posted by Victor
I vaguely remember Italians and Germans brow-beating us to accept Nice

You mean their governments, I'd imagine - I remember being in Germany at the time of the first referendum and the germans I was talking to (who would have to be classed as centre-right) were quite happy that we'd said no because they were pissed off at not having been given a choice themselves, their lot just approved it at cabinet level.

MeatProduct

Nothing like a bit of globalisation to make the little man even smaller.

Nick