ClickSilver ..just died...again !

solaris

Originally posted by Ripwave
It'd be interesting to know what Operating systems people are using, and whether they are using XPs built in PPPoE support, or the client provided by Clicksilver.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/24376.html

2 x Win2K PCs, through a D-Link 504 router. No UTV software. Having searched for previous posts on MTU, I see this issue has been addressed before. I found the following link in one of those posts

http://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/article04-107

Oh, and thanks Andrew163

Ripwave

Originally posted by solaris
2 x Win2K PCs, through a D-Link 504 router. No UTV software.

It shouldn't really be a problem in that case (unless the 504 needs to have it's MTU decreased?)

solaris

Originally posted by Ripwave
It shouldn't really be a problem in that case (unless the 504 needs to have it's MTU decreased?)

I don't see a way of changing the router MTU, but changing it on the two PCs has fixed the problem. The last few days has been a joke - no access to half the websites, unable to download mails. It's back to normal now.

dub45

Can anyone explain why the MTU has a role to play in what sites can or cant be accessed? I thought that MTU dealt with package sizes? If I recall correctly the proxy issue first arose after a fault in one of UTV's own routers there was never a mention of it being an issue before that. The MTU was first mentioned in the UTV support group (which is when most of us non teccy types probably first heard of it)when there was a major speed issue.

And lastly what would suddenly cause the MTU to become an issue?

jonski

The suggested MTU setting by UTV was 1492 originally .

andrew163

I'm not a TCP/IP expert, I've learned from experience and by playing around, but my theory is that one or more of UTVs routers is damaged (bad memory maybe, or just misconfigured) and cant handle packet sizes above a certain limit.... and only certain sites actually use packets as large as 1400 or so bytes so theyre the sites that you can't access..... just a theory. It also seems to be nmore of a problem with outgoing traffic then incoming traffic for me..

I'm using windows 2000 for the gateway btw, the LAN computer i mentioned earlier was on 98 (but the problem also existed in XP when I upgraded), and my friends computer was on 98 when the problem arose, but he has since bought XP and the problem disappeared without changing MTU settings for XP.

tis an odd problem...



-andrew

jonski

using mtu 1454 now and no proxy, if this post comes up then it has worked for me .

Tomorrow night I will see about ping and pkt loss , no idea if mtu effects this .




ps: first post without proxy

Xcellor

Would MTU have any effect on my config.. I have router plugged into a hub,, not directly into a PC... I mean my connection has been fine i just like playing around with things breaking them and fixing them again

X

mickger

i tried the mtu thing but it didnt work for me. i can't send or receive email which is a major pain. the silence from UTV on this subject is deafening

OfflerCrocGod

Your OS sends Packet to web server that your OSs MTU is 1500 (the max for PPPoE to carry I think, as a single packet) which is correct because on its own with nothing in between it and the internet the OS can happily ask for those packet sizes. With a router in between you and your connection though things change!, you send a 1500 packet, the router receives it adds 8 in headers.....since the packet is over 1500 its split into two; so far no prob, the server receives them and pieces them together BUT when it sends you packets it sends them at size 1500 which you router receives and DISCARDS cause the MTU is 1500 - no space for its own header.

The router sends an ICMP request to the offending server telling it to tone down on the MTU to 1492; so that it can then stick on its own header THIS is were you get one server working and others NOT - if the server is set up properly it will resize packets so you can receive them. Of course if it doesn't heed those ICMP packets and keeps sending 1500 size packets.......you recieve nada, in closing its up to the server you make a connection to if your page will load or not. Or something like that:D.

OfflerCrocGod

Quoted myself by mistake instead of pressing edit....splelling mistake:D, HAD to correct it , hate mistakes.

dub45

Originally posted by andrew163
I'm not a TCP/IP expert, I've learned from experience and by playing around, but my theory is that one or more of UTVs routers is damaged (bad memory maybe, or just misconfigured) and cant handle packet sizes above a certain limit.... and only certain sites actually use packets as large as 1400 or so bytes so theyre the sites that you can't access..... just a theory. It also seems to be nmore of a problem with outgoing traffic then incoming traffic for me..

I'm using windows 2000 for the gateway btw, the LAN computer i mentioned earlier was on 98 (but the problem also existed in XP when I upgraded), and my friends computer was on 98 when the problem arose, but he has since bought XP and the problem disappeared without changing MTU settings for XP.

tis an odd problem...



-andrew

The initial proxy problem began with an (admitted) failure in one of UTV's routers. It was only after that failure that reports of inability to access sites began to appear. Initially that unrivalled UTV technical support team dismissed it as a client side issue and after lots of shall we say 'encouragement' from unimpressed clients UTV looked at it again and over a period it seemed to sort of disappear without any formal announcement of a cure by UTV.

The recent bout of problems seems to have begun with the failure of an Esat router? and haven't some esat customers been reporting similar type problems on here though not I think to the same extent as Clicksilver ones. Martin today (in the UTV support group) seemed to be suggesting that they had found the cause if not the full answer

From the diagnostics we've run it looks like a really weird problem that seems to be affecting people behind a NAT connection - working on a resolution.

Lets hope the resolution is not a new year one!

dub45

Originally posted by OfflerCrocGod


The router sends an ICMP request to the offending server telling it to tone down on the MTU to 1492; so that it can then stick on its own header THIS is were you get one server working and others NOT - if the server is set up properly it will resize packets so you can receive them. Of course if it doesn't heed those ICMP packets and keeps sending 1500 size packets.......you recieve nada, in closing its up to the server you make a connection to if your page will load or not. Or something like that:D.

Thanks for that OCG - my universal translator is not fully functioning - cant blame UTV for that ! just my lack of technical knowledge - so what I am surmising from your explanation is that there is a server somewhere which has started to malfunction and thats why the MTU is suddenly an issue?

Now dare I ask this how does the MTU and proxy interact or do they if you get my gist?

dub45

Originally posted by mickger
i tried the mtu thing but it didnt work for me. i can't send or receive email which is a major pain. the silence from UTV on this subject is deafening

Mickger who is your email account with? If it is a pop based one some web mail accounts like yahoo will let you access it by inserting the server addresses maybe that would help you out if you are in urgent need to get at stuff.

dub45

Originally posted by Xcellor
Would MTU have any effect on my config.. I have router plugged into a hub,, not directly into a PC... I mean my connection has been fine i just like playing around with things breaking them and fixing them again

X

things to break things wth

solaris

Originally posted by mickger
i tried the mtu thing but it didnt work for me. i can't send or receive email which is a major pain. the silence from UTV on this subject is deafening

Did you set it to 1492 or 1454 ? It didn't work for me at 1492, which I tried first (though I didn't spend too much time testing). I then changed it to 1454 and that fixed it.

Ro-76

Originally posted by mickger
...the silence from UTV on this subject is deafening

The MTU settings worked for me too. A pity UTV couldn't tell us that.

Ro

OfflerCrocGod

Originally posted by dub45
so what I am surmising from your explanation is that there is a server somewhere which has started to malfunction and thats why the MTU is suddenly an issue?

No there are certain servers who just ignore the request by your router(ICMP request) to bring the packet size down to 1492 so that your router can then pass on the packet to you with an included 8 byte header. So the only solution is for YOU to change your MTU to compensate for those mis-configured servers on the web, I think theregister.co.uk is one of those as is the iol.ie server, so bring down your MTU to 1492 in windows.

Originally posted by dub45
Now dare I ask this how does the MTU and proxy interact or do they if you get my gist?

Extra layer in-between you and web server - I'd say you would need to bring your MTU down even further, thats why some ppl are only getting this to work at an MTU of 1454.

mickger

Originally posted by solaris
Did you set it to 1492 or 1454 ? It didn't work for me at 1492, which I tried first (though I didn't spend too much time testing). I then changed it to 1454 and that fixed it.

Its working for me now at 1454. DrTCP was'nt saving it so i used TCP Optimizer instead.

Aepos

After all the engineering works etc. speeds at 5.00pm worse than ever, up and down like a yo-yo still.


At least the MTU thing has got over the proxy work around..


So what's the story Malcom?


Ae

Xcellor

Originally posted by dub45
things to break things wth

Yes but I like to be able to fix them again afterwards Those tools are rather heavy handed and I lack the skills to glue broken silicon back together heh..

X

Max

As advised by Martin in UTV support I have changed my MTU to 1426 which seems to have cured the problem.

It seems that there are different values being suggested for MTU ranging from 1492 down to 1426. Before changing, mine was 1492 which obviously was not working.

Does anyone know what is optimum?

Max

Aepos

Check out this site.. 1454 seems to be the right number.


http://www.mynetwatchman.com/kb/ADSL/pppoemtu.htm

Subc

Ok well like most o you I'm also having the same problem.
Cant seem to use hotmail, outlook, DC, some sites didnt work correctly even with the proxy settings. I called tech support on monday the guy said they were working on server and that it should of worked tuesday morning. This morning didnt work so i called again i got this women who told me to get DRTCP021 and set the MTU between 1490 and 1500, obviously that didnt work. I tried your settings 1426 and 1454 also didnt work but thanx to "mickger" i got TCP Optimizer and im back up.

I have a few questions though:
1) why does this suddenly happen? (for me friday night)
2) whats MTU and do the different numbers such as 1454 affect the speed in any way.
3) is there any way they can fix this so we don't have to use all these programs to tweak?

Thanx in advance

iano

This all sounds like the well-known problem of misconfigured or "black hole" routers.

For an explanation of MTU, PMTU, MSS and associated problems, you can check out the following:

Cisco Description: http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk175/tk15/technologies_tech_note09186a0080093bc7.shtml

Cisco instructions on how to fix for windows/solaris/HPUX/AIX patforms: http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/105/38.shtml

Microsoft's explanation and workaround: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;314825

This is usually caused by some clueless network engineer disabling ICMP for "security" reasons.

geecee

Hi All

I never had any speed or proxy problems with UTV (except for the constant outages!) until the recent engineering works...

I am now receiving around at between 2 kpbs-20 kbps in spikes and I'm only managing 50MB an hour in downloads (ie less the Dial up!)

Do i need to change my MTU or is the MTU setting change only for those with the proxy problems?

If i use DRTCP am i supposed to reboot after the canging the settings or is there an easier way for the settings to take effect?

I have to say I am slowly but surely moving to Dub45s and Jonsksi opinion on this matter UTV...are crap!

Thanks in advance!

Aepos

Totally agree,

Browsing slow. Download speeds up and down like a yoyo even during low load times.

Usually early evening isn't to bad, but seems to be consistantly poor now.

Though one thing I noticed in the routers log, the service didn't go off since 7.00am today.

Still no replies to the support emails or any further info on status of the UTV network improvements/repairs.

Customers kept Informed would possibly be slightly happier customers.

Cheers

Ae

dub45

Originally posted by geecee
Hi All

I never had any speed or proxy problems with UTV (except for the constant outages!) until the recent engineering works...

I am now receiving around at between 2 kpbs-20 kbps in spikes and I'm only managing 50MB an hour in downloads (ie less the Dial up!)

Do i need to change my MTU or is the MTU setting change only for those with the proxy problems?

If i use DRTCP am i supposed to reboot after the canging the settings or is there an easier way for the settings to take effect?

I have to say I am slowly but surely moving to Dub45s and Jonsksi opinion on this matter UTV...are crap!

Thanks in advance!

Gecce,

I think it is worth changing the MTU for the moment anyways as it seems to result in miraculous cures for some people. You can always change it back and yes you do have to reboot as far as I am aware.

I cant speak on his behalf of course but I dont think Jonsi would think that UTV is totally crap nor do I. But I am very disappointed (surprise surprise!) at the way they have disimproved since the inception of Clicksilver - before that they really were a breath of fresh air. And better communications at times of poor service like this would go a long way towards helping their customers patience. The sad thing is that reading other threads also shows that noneof the other ISP's are any better in this regard. Jonski up until recently was one of UTV's biggest fans so it really took something on UTV's part to p***** him off so much. In the past couple of days UTV have been giving a little more detail on what has been going wrong and at least that is refreshing and maybe indicative of some sort of change on their part and at least they deserve some credit for that. Have you read the support group today or yesterday?

Subc

I'm currently using TCP optimizer and i set the MTU to 1454 and it works.

If this problem is ever fixed how do you set the settings back to default, u just delete the program or u set the MTU to something else or what?

Hobbes

Originally posted by Gonzo
Why anyone would even think of clicksilver is beyond me, when clicksilver was working to its best it used to be rubbish for gamers

News to me. My internet is working and speeds are fine. However I am having proxy server problems (So web only is an issue). Anyone got any more proxy servers I can hit?