David Ervine - He's Great!!!!!!!!!

dirty_latino

I was just wondering what peoples opinion is of David Ervine?

I think he is the man I have most respect for on the Northern Ireland political scene, mainly due to his openness and ability to take on the point of view of other cultures and not have a blind, one-sided view.

This man has done a huge deal for the current situation in the North and I think his thunder was stolen by David Trimble when said puppet was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.

If all the other politicians in the north took a leaf out of David Ervines book, we'd be on to a winner, the only one who appears to have done so thus far is Alec Maskey.

But, I was just wondering what others opinions are of David Ervine and the PUP in general?

thesecret7

fair play to him.. he seems to talk sense!

dirty_latino

Fo shizzle my nizzle

Johnny 5

I too have great respect for the man, and I'm an ardent Sinn Feiner.

He's the only politician on the Unionist side interested in giving power sharing a go, and I'm all up for that.

Sat beside him on a plane once, nice man.

jesus_thats_gre

I just had the plessure of reading his book and am mightly impressed!! Really is a veru tolerent man!

Dub13

I have a lot of time for David Ervine..I have thought the same for some time now

Mighty_Mouse

He represents the UVF who aren't on a cease-fire and are stil murdering catholics

cruiserweight

cease-fire

Just remind me who exactly is on ceasefire, and I mean actually not officially

Mighty_Mouse

The IRA

cruiserweight

The IRA

I am sorry but I wouldn't count carrying out punishment beatings etc as being a ceasation of violence

Mighty_Mouse

Just remind me who exactly is on ceasefire,

The IRA

Are the IRA not on Ceasefire?

daveirl

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Johnny 5

Please, can we not let it go down that road again...

This place is so monotonous.

daveirl

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Mercury_Tilt

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jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by daveirl
Agreed, I was just replying to the comment made earlier.

Personally though I'd agree with Mighty Mouse (SHOCK!) and say that I don't have the time of day for Ervine either, yes he's charasmatic like Adams but I still detest everything he stands for.

Care to actually state what you belive he believes in?

daveirl

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Mighty_Mouse

I think if you compare the amount of punishment attacks etc, between the UVF and the IRA the similarities are striking.

I've tried to attach a file just so we are straight on facts and figures here. If it doesn't work I'll run to the mods and be back shortly.

The link in the meantime is :
http://www.psni.police.uk/index/about_psni/chiefconstables_annual_reports.htmchiefconstables_annual_reports

Not my favoured source of any information mind you!

Just to say. When comparing punishment beatings of the two communited on of these communities has a police force, one doesn't.

Mighty_Mouse

I think he is the man I have most respect for on the Northern Ireland political scene, mainly due to his openness and ability to take on the point of view of other cultures and not have a blind, one-sided view.

I like Ervine to listen to also. he's carismatic and says all the right things. If he practiced what he preached it would be a help. He has failed to deliver anything from the UVF/Red hand defenders which could contribute to the peace process so as for openness, not be blinded for one-sided views etc etc :eek:
The UVF are still attacking and murdering catholics in NI ffs!!!

This man has done a huge deal for the current situation in the North and I think his thunder was stolen by David Trimble when said puppet was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.

Not sure how you mean this. Sure the PUP hardly have an electoral mandate to "have their thunder stolen" in the first place!

If all the other politicians in the north took a leaf out of David Ervines book, we'd be on to a winner, the only one who appears to have done so thus far is Alec Maskey.

Because of the above reasons disagree with the Ervine comment. Agree with Maskey comment though, He did huge cross community work (against the grain of hardline republicans) when he had the mayor's position in Belfast.

daveirl

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Mighty_Mouse

Do people here agree that "cessation of all activites" and "ceasefire" are two different things?

Victor

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
"ceasefire"

Isn't that when you stop shooting people? Also note that the unionist polulation is larger than the nationalist polulation.

I have time for Ervine because he recognised that loyalism had to move on from violence. In one quote he puts this down to senior loyalists, including himself, not wanting to see their grandchildren killed. I think the UVF have generally been less violent and more disciplined than the UDA in hte last few years.

Mighty_Mouse

Isn't that when you stop shooting people?

Are you saying the IRA are not on cease-fire.

Also note that the unionist polulation is larger than the nationalist polulation.

http://www.nisra.gov.uk/Census/Excel/migration_tables/s388_nuts3.xls

Not significantly. Whats the point anyways?

I think the UVF have generally been less violent and more disciplined than the UDA in hte last few years.

I actually have a little time for Ervine but the fact of the matter is he has contributed nothing to the process so far. (esp. in terms of UVF cease fires).

In relation to which loyalist organisation is "less voilent" than the other note that there have been over-lapping between the activites of the various organisations in the last few years .. eg the red hand defenders etc .

So whether the UDA are not killing 'as many' or murdering 'as many' at the moment is no real condolence to catholics in the context of the IRA having a long-lasting ceasefire.

Also in relation to community voilence in NI. Unionists have a police force, republicans dont.

Also the IRA are policing their own areas..........whereas loyalists are still actively "targeting" catholics.

Victor

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Are you saying the IRA are not on cease-fire.

I'm saying they are being selective about it.

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
http://www.nisra.gov.uk/Census/Excel/migration_tables/s388_nuts3.xls

Religion does not directly equate to political orientation. More repressentative would be here http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/

Unionist - 51%
Nationalist - 41%
Non-alignmed - 8%

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Not significantly. Whats the point anyways?

A larger population is likely to have a larger number of violent incidents. Note that "punishment" beatings come from one's own community, so using those figures to say loyalists are still targeting catholoics / nationalists *may* be misleading.

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
In relation to which loyalist organisation is "less voilent" than the other note that there have been over-lapping between the activites of the various organisations in the last few years .. eg the red hand defenders etc . So whether the UDA are not killing 'as many' or murdering 'as many' at the moment is no real condolence to catholics in the context of the IRA having a long-lasting ceasefire.

I think it's good that he UVF and the PIRA are killing and injuring fewer people, but I sill can't accept them killing or injuring anyone.

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Also in relation to community voilence in NI. Unionists have a police force, republicans dont.

Nationalists do. Part of the reason republicans don't have a police force is because of the PIRA decision c. 1974 to not accept the political route, when the main civil rights movement demands had been obtained.

Mighty_Mouse

I'm saying they are being selective about it.

Which implys not 100% on ceasefire?
Which would mean not on ceasfire.
IMO this is incorrect. I think everyone at this stage accepts that the IRA are on ceasefire.

Lets resort to the dictionary again!!

Ceasefire =

An order to stop firing. Suspension of active hostilities; a truce.

source : dictionary.com

The IRA are on ceasefire.

A larger population is likely to have a larger number of violent incidents.

Can I summarise your argument? Your point is that because there is a larger population of unionists there is a larger amount of voilence in the unionist community?

For this to be correct there would need to be 50% more unionists than catholics and this isn't true.

Religion does not directly equate to political orientation.

Ok. But for making general arguments its the same difference.

so using those figures to say loyalists are still targeting catholoics / nationalists *may* be misleading.

I wasn't. It was in terms of "activity" that they were pointed out.

But If anyone knows where there might be figures which show attacks by Loyalist organisations on republicans versus attacks on unionists by republican organisations please show.

PIRA are killing and injuring fewer people

carefull.............. Whats wrong with the above sentance?

Part of the reason republicans don't have a police force is because of the PIRA decision c. 1974 to not accept the political route, when the main civil rights movement demands had been obtained.

Two points:
1. If you believe this, do you believe that Republicans shouldnt be provided with a police force now?
2.

when the main civil rights movement demands had been obtained

Catholics were still second class citizens at that time.

Q. Whats wrong with asking the PSNI to reform into a transparant independant policing organisation which all members of the community can turn to?

bonkey

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Lets resort to the dictionary again!!

Yes, lets.

Ceasefire = An order to stop firing.
Suspension of active hostilities; a truce.


The IRA are on ceasefire.

Really? So they have suspended all hostilities? All of them? There's no punishment beatings at all? Not a single one? No violent criminal activity whatsoever???

I thought you agreed earlier that this wasn't the case, and were arguing that a ceasefire simply meant they weren't shooting people and blowing things up?


jc

Mighty_Mouse

The latter

Victor

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
The latter

Are you saying they are or aren't shooting people?

Mighty_Mouse

I'm saying they're on cease-fire.

You're saying they're not.........because of punishment beatings etc while I don't believe these activities affect their status of "ceasefire"

Are we clear

bonkey

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
because of punishment beatings etc while I don't believe these activities affect their status of "ceasefire"

Are we clear

I'm still trying to figure why you gave us a dictionary definition for ceasefire which said "suspension of active hostilities".

Are you saying that if I were to beat you half-to-death with a baseball bat that it wouldn't be actively hostile of me?

jc

Mighty_Mouse

Are you saying that if I were to beat you half-to-death with a baseball bat that it wouldn't be actively hostile of me?

The IRA are not 'actively hostile' towards the British Army, the RUC/PSNI, or Unionist population.

Policing their own areas has already been discussed.