Why i don't like CTYI (not the forum... the place)

Mutant_Fruit

CTYI is supposedly a centre for talented people, of greater intelectual ability than most. But from what i've seen, its not. Friends of mine who would scrape into the honours bracket of an exam on a good day have gone to CTYI.

They then think they're great and talanted, and better than "the rest of us". I know not everyone is like that, but i've had it said to me on several occasions by these people that since i wasn't in CTYI, i can't possibly comment on it, and they eminate the feeling that they are better than me, just because they went there.

Now, these same people would be lucky to get a C3 in 5th/6th year exams, they are not bright, and most definately not in the top 2-3% of the population. Whereas myself, who has never taken the "entrance exam" thingy, would generally score a good bit higher than them.

So, in general, i don't think much of CTYI as a centre for "talented" people. It seems any joe soap can get in if they really want. In my opinion (biased as it may seem) CTYI is a "smart camp", where people can go and take college courses for a few weeks, and generally have a laugh. It is not (in my opinion) for just the smart people.

this is not a troll, i want other peoples opinions on what i've said, not flames!

Raphael

That's an interesting analysis, but the very fact that the people who go to CTYI are actually willing to go to CTYI stands for a lot

Even assuming what you say is fact (I'm not saying i agree) the very fact that these people are willing to take time out from their summer to learn something they'd never learn otherwise

That said, i believe also that your wrong, secondary school is different from CTYI, its possible to be highly talented and yet still do badly in secondary exams

but your theory might explain TJ...

(apologies for the contradictions and general lack of sense, I'm quite tired...might post a more coherent response tomorrow)

Crash

Right...not sure the best place to start with this...

I've seen a number of these threads before. No trolling mutant fruit please. (or vice versa mutant fruit, if this thread gets out of hand its being locked.)

Firstly there are a number of things i would state wrong about your post -
you state a number of things and then state "although i've never taken the test i could get a high score" - the problem with that is the SAT is a very different kind of test...i dunno, its almost a different way of dealing with stuff. In my eyes whether you do well in school or not can never be related to how smart you are. I know some very intelligent people who have serious bad luck in school, then i also know some very dumb people who manage to do very well due to a severe mental absorption ability. Basically they dont actually integrate ANYTHING they learn into their minds, it just sits there.

I would agree that there are some right idiots in CTYI, people who my mind boggles at to hear them talk about ANYTHING, but part of me puts that down to the difference between being smart and clever. you know, how smart someone is is a measure of intelligence, clever is actual cognitive reasoning.

However i would say the ratio of people who you would straight off rank as very intelligent as opposed to those who you rank as only reaching an honours grade on a good day is pretty damn high.

relating to this:

They then think they're great and talanted, and better than "the rest of us". I know not everyone is like that, but i've had it said to me on several occasions by these people that since i wasn't in CTYI, i can't possibly comment on it, and they eminate the feeling that they are better than me, just because they went there

I would bet a fiver versus a bent penny when they make comments like "seeing as you werent there you cant talk about it they are either
a)talking bout the social aspect more than anything else,
b)defending themsellves against insults directed at them for going to CTYI :rolleyes:
c)or possibly (you do get some of these...not many but a few. at least none of the ones i know really) just being obnoxious assholes, in which case they most likely were like that beforehand and you cant really blame CTYI for that.

Neil.

claire h

The SAT measures aptitude. School exams measures one's ability to memorise information and then regurgitate it within a short space of time in the appropriate manner. There's a difference.

I guess some people go to CTYI and end up with a bit of an ego. On the other hand, it can have the reverse effect. Being around so many people who all seem to be so much smarter than you - not great for self esteem. I guess it depends on the person.

nosmo

Let it be known. I'm not that smart. I've always had an inferiority complex going on, after how well my sisters turned out. I barely scraped into the summer courses. But to be frank, CTYI (for me) is for the most part not about learning

The course is often portrayed by the bastions of truth that are the nation's tabloids as a basic course where arrogant rich kids can buy self esteem.

Bungalow Bill

While the Leaving Cert isn't directly an 'intelligence' test, it has to be said that in general, stupid people do badly, clever people do well.

I would like to think that I am quite intelligent but I don't have a 'certificate' like somebody I know.
It does give some people a superiority complex, i've seen it.

Out of interest, are people specially chosen for this course?
Or is it just an ego thing for parents?

SOL

Well I have just come home from a debating IV where I got royally shafted so I am now going to take it out on your wonderful interpretation of CTYI, the irish educations system, the concept of "aptitude" and peoples concept of aptitude.

In order to poopoo your arguement I am going to put this in three main points,
(I) What is CTYI
(II) Why the education system that we are subjected to can neither be proclaimed a measure of intelegence or aptitude and is a vast culmination of many things
(III) The use of coloquial evidence in judging what is now a well established institution and asserting things from this evidence,

Firstly the concept of what CTYI is, it is a course designed for those of higher aptitudes, and as such relies on the use of an aptitude test. What they then have is a reasonable approximation of the people who are of both higher aptitude and who care to take the test. Statistically it is inevitable that people will fluke the exam as it is an mct however this inevitability does not mean that CTYI's selection process is invalid it is just a fact of life. Aptitude is not a measure of acedemic achievement, it merely gives a reasonable indication of peoples ability and where the limits of there academic ability are likely to be. As such is not a reasonable arguement to proclaim that someone is lazy and therefore has not got a high aptitude.

Secondly your comparison of the aptitude test to the Irish acedemic system is completely non sequiter as they aren't even attempting to measure the same things. As such it is an entirely invalid arguement to say that because you have the ability to engage well in the school system and have the good fortune to have the circumstances, wherewithall and inclination to perfrom well that you can use this to attempt to compare aptitudes, using this to proclaim that you think you would do better than them or that they are "not bright" is a nonsense.

Thirdly and most importantly arguement from quantised coloquial pieces of evidence is about as useful as me telling you your wrong and to get your head out of your hole without providing you with an explanation. As I previously have accepted as with all and particualerly MC tests there is a probability that some people will get scores that don't reflect the true result. Using this to proclaim that you feel that any joe soap can get in is hence silly, and wothout any other evidence using this to contest the fact that the people who do get in are indeed from the upper echelons or scholastic ability is just plain silly.

So in general what is probably a helpful idea is that you should take your ideas, perhaps either rethink them or rephrase them in a way that is better than, I know two people who in my unsubstanciated opinion are..... therefore you are all..... and perhaps admit that those who have gone to CTYI have had an experience that you haven't and that as such you may be at a slight disadvantage in understanding it, as for making themselves out to be somehow superior to you well that is also entirely substantiate for the very reasons I have previously outlined. However just to finish this wonderful rant on an equally silly note, I will refer you to the case of
Me Vs The Department of Education, and would note that I while scraping through my mocks including a fail in english and several D's was also selected for our ICHO team.
So in short, I poo on your silly and childish ideas and proclaim them invalid and instuct that a new thread should be made free from generalisations and attempts to compare fundamentally different things.

Draupnir

I have no knowledge of CTYI but I do know that ya dont do well in SAT's if youre stupid. And yes, they are a far better judge of intelligence than a secondary school exam or even a college exam, Ive often passed exams (includin leaving cert) by doing nothing till the week before. Ya gotta actually know stuff to do well in an SAT. be it for CTYI, an American College or even a job

Draupnir

WHats an ICHO team?

Mutant_Fruit

"although i've never taken the test i could get a high score"

Thats not what i said (well, its not what i meant...). When i said i scored better than them, i wasn't referring to the SAT's, i was referring to average everyday tests.

To me, CTYI seems to be more of a big social gathering, a few weeks having a bit of a laugh, and going to a few courses; a bit like going to the gaeltacht. When you go to the garltacht, the aim is to get better at irish, but all you really do is have a bit of a laugh and meet new people, the majority of the people who go do not go for the purposes of inproving their irish, thats a secondary or tertiary reason.

So, how many people here can honestly say they went to CTYI for the primary reason of increasing their knowledge?

I remember taking some test back in 3rd year, somthing similar to the SAT's i presume (i can't remember the name for them), and i scored 99% in mechanical reasoning. I got 2 others in the 90's and the rest were over 60. So, does that mean i'm hugely talented? I wouldn't think so. I work, i do my study, and it pays off.

EDIT: Sol, english isn't my strong point, give me a few minutes with a dictionary to translate those big words into little ones .

Draupnir

sorry hehe

strawberry

I wonder .... now that I think about it ... the SATs I presume are based on the American ideal of intelligence, ie. the ability to work thing out ... which really is not directly connected to the 'school' idea of what intelligence is. CTYI makes you think about things. School make you learn things off and splat them on paper., which hasn't worked out too badly for myself, but I imagine that it would give quite a few of the people who went to CTYI major headaches. CTYI is for the kind of person who doesn't want to learn things off, who doesn't see any point in it, since it's always there to be looked up and is probably boring as hell anyway (take geography for example). CTYI's a place for people who are willing to be interesting, ie themselves, and not what everyone else want them to be, and therefore I suspect that it probably doesn't matter that much to you friends that they don't do that well in school. Especially if it's not the LC.

Although I do suspect these days that quite a lot of people go to polish up their CVs. *Shudder*

And also Cormac (even though I love you), get over the three point plan, it's an internet forum, not a debator's therapy group.

strawberry

Oh, and now that I'm old and wise, I will frelly admit to being a big nerd and having gone to CTYI to increase my knowledge.
In fact, I'm a bit of a knowledge junkie really - especially languages, the odd bit of science, politics....but I digress

SOL

Originally posted by Mutant_Fruit
Thats not what i said (well, its not what i meant...). When i said i scored better than them, i wasn't referring to the SAT's, i was referring to average everyday tests.

To me, CTYI seems to be more of a big social gathering, a few weeks having a bit of a laugh, and going to a few courses; a bit like going to the gaeltacht. When you go to the garltacht, the aim is to get better at irish, but all you really do is have a bit of a laugh and meet new people, the majority of the people who go do not go for the purposes of inproving their irish, thats a secondary or tertiary reason.

So, how many people here can honestly say they went to CTYI for the primary reason of increasing their knowledge?

I remember taking some test back in 3rd year, somthing similar to the SAT's i presume (i can't remember the name for them), and i scored 99% in mechanical reasoning. I got 2 others in the 90's and the rest were over 60. So, does that mean i'm hugely talented? I wouldn't think so. I work, i do my study, and it pays off.

EDIT: Sol, english isn't my strong point, give me a few minutes with a dictionary to translate those big words into little ones .

Firstly how is your performance in school examinations relevant? secondly how does peoples motivations for attending CTYI change there intellegence and finally, the DATs I assume are the exams to whcih you refer and to say that you got 99% in a certain exam is perfectly acceptable but its not one of the entrance qualifications for CTYI so if it makes you feel better if you tell yourself that you are imensely talented because of this then go for it,
To sumerise my last post your arguement is <>****</> because you use your example of two people to generalise for all and you try to compare two entirely different things, is that better? I'd appreciate if you tried to justify your arguement in light of what I have brought before continuing on the poopoo train,

AngelofFire

i kinda agree with mutant fruit in a way. im a non ctyi person myself. 2 friends of mine are. there a few nice people there but i have come across many patronising, arrogant and condescending ctyi people. i think that being in an elitist nerd camp asserts feelings of superiority amongst some people. i dont mean to tar people with the one brush im just talking from experience.

strawberry

Please SOL, just SHUT UP with the 'poopoo train'.

And I would agree that there are some people from CTYI who come across as arrogant, in some cases, it was because they felt threatened by other people's perceptions of them, and in others they were just arrogant, people are still people no matter how smart they are - they just express themselves slightly differently.

GuanYin

First off how you do in the LC is no reflection of how intelligent you are. It *can* be in certain circumstances, but not as a general rule. The main reason is that it tests you in only one major area and thats recollection/memory. It does nothing for abstract thinking, relation assessment and many of the other areas where "talented" people may excel.

Secondly CTYI is a a scheme that in some ways is designed to "nurture" the latent talent that some youngsters display. Many teachers Iknow at both primary and secondary level fear a child with advanced learning abilities rather than learning disabilities. The main reason is there are guidelines set for dealing with learning disabilities, but it is hard for a teacher to deal with a child who is far more advanced than what he or she is used to. Keeping them occupied and interested provides a challenge they maynot be equipped for and lack of stimulation may promote apathy with learning in general.

There can be social issues too, often so called "talented" children are interested in things that none of theirpeers are, they don't have anyone socially to stimulate them. CTYI tries in some ways to address this. It doesn't set an aim to produce super spies or einsteins, but to try and accomodate the kids who may find normal curriculums unchallenging.

The entry requirement screening isn't perfect, its hard to set one, as there are is a broad scope of "talents" and interest areas in CTYI and no doubt some kids who don't make it in are just as talented. Secondly it does (or atleast did) run by referral so unless someone thinks you might be eligable, you may not get to apply. Its unfortunate, but the scheme has limited resources.

As an aside, when I was a kid I didn't get into the CTYI equivilent. I didn't do well enough in the tests. I stormed the LC though and professionally haven't done badly. I even taught at CTYI for a while (oh the irony, the kids loved that one).

Bungalow Bill

I would like to for a moment defend the Leaving Cert.
It is being made out that any old idiot can do well if they sit at home all day learning off reams of material.
What about physics?Or chemistry??
There is a certain level of understanding that is required well before you can learn everything off.
What about music and engineering or art???
What these don't require any types of intelligence?

For english a certain natural flair for writing is neccessary before you can achieve a high grade. You won't know the essay titles or anything.

For learning foreign languages a certain aptitude is required also.

Also a major part of bing successful at anything is an appetite for hard work. I know someone who went to CTYI. He was incredibly intelligent but so lazy that he has since dropped out of college!!And not because it wasn't 'stimulating' enough for him, because he couldn't handle the work.

Of course the L.C is some reflection on how intelligent you are. Not a perfect one by any means, but it does have its merits

Barry Aldwell

I can't believe this thread has got this far without someone using the phrase "Murder machine"

claire h

Originally posted by Bungalow Bill
I would like to for a moment defend the Leaving Cert.
It is being made out that any old idiot can do well if they sit at home all day learning off reams of material.
What about physics?Or chemistry??
There is a certain level of understanding that is required well before you can learn everything off.

It helps to have a certain level of understanding, but basically, if you really wanted to, you *could* just learn by rote. It's unlikely that it would happen, because most people end up understanding the stuff at least a little while they're learning, but it's possible.

What about music and engineering or art???
What these don't require any types of intelligence?

From what I've seen of the music course, at any rate, a lot of it is about learning off stuff as well. I know people who are ridiculously gifted at music itself but who don't do particularly well on school tests.

For english a certain natural flair for writing is neccessary before you can achieve a high grade. You won't know the essay titles or anything.

Not in Paper 2. And it's possible to write an article or review or whatever for the essay on Paper 1 without neccessarily having a 'certain natural flair', or going in with an essay prepared and trying to use it in some form or shape, for example in the write-an-essay-based-on-the-pictures-in-Text-3 questions. Several people I know did this for their mocks and got As for their essay as a result - a smaller number made up an essay on the day and got an A.

For learning foreign languages a certain aptitude is required also.

It helps, but it's not absolutely necessary. That's pretty much the way the entire Leaving Cert course runs, really. A natural aptitude for a subject helps, but it is possible to work hard. It is *necessary* to work hard in order to achieve good results. It may be *some* reflection on how intelligent you are, but mostly it just reflects your ability to learn, memorise and regurgitate.

Originally posted by Draupnir
Ya gotta actually know stuff to do well in an SAT.

Not really... most people who go and do the SAT for CTYI purposes aren't prepared for it at all. And it really only works at its best if you haven't been prepared, because then it really is a matter of testing your natural aptitude. If you're prepared and have vocab lists learned off and whatever else American high school students do before taking it, it's not as effective.

Originally posted by Mutant_Fruit
So, how many people here can honestly say they went to CTYI for the primary reason of increasing their knowledge?

*raises hand*

Ivan

Hmm, if you have a lot of friends who think they are way superior to ye, did ye ever stop and look at the pattern.

I mean, did it ever occur to ye that they ARE superior to ye?



Oooh, thats a bad troll. Bad Ivan! :ninja:

Atreides

come on now lads, its not like any of you got into trinity, is it? I met this one guy called neil (black hair, nice girlfriend) at a party by another guy called nemo(blond hair and a goaty) anyway he didn't seem to bright to me, and he was a ctyi'er

oq4v3ht0u76kf2

The Leaving Cert. et al are all exams that examine you based upon what you have learned. The SAT, in theory, tests you based upon what you could learn.

The "only rich kids" theory is bunk because some people I know at CTYI (myself included) are near enough the published "poverty line". Also, the Gaeltacht (I'm talking about summer courses in Irish as a whole -- you know what I mean) which lets in anyone costs, in a lot of cases, as much if not more than CTYI.

The Gaeltacht has no "standard" to which people must meet before they are allowed attend. CTYI has the SAT exam which is intended to test "aptitude"... that is, the ability to learn. Most people can do very well in the SAT given the right kind of teaching, as with any exam.

The difference is that the people who are going to CTYI have taken the SAT and have, in their minds, "qualified" themselves for this place immeadiately makes it superior. Much like a nightclub with a bouncer / dress code is seen as superior to one without.

If people have to qualify themselves of prove themselves worhty for anything then they atuomatically see themselves as a little bit better than other people who haven't qualified in that particular endeavour. For example, two lads go into an off licence... one gets asked for ID, the other doesn't... whether it's admitted or not, and for maybe just one night, the lad who didn't get asked for ID feels that he is in some way "better" or "more qualified" that the lad who was asked for ID.

Finally, to actually attend what is often branded as a geek camp, or a smart camp, requires someone who either already sees themselves as fitting that stereotype or someone who is willing to exist for three weeks in such a culture. CTYI surprises people at first because it is not like that (on the whole) but instead it is just full of normal enough teenagers who have the qualities of being open minded and reportedly have the ability to learn very well.

The last paragraph is purely subjective, some people call CTYI'ers elitist and God knows what else but at the end of the day CTYI is like every Gaeltacht, CTYI is like every soccer camp, band camp and any other place where a large number of semi-random people are lumped together for a period of time. The majority are good people, you might not get on with them, but they are good people. A few are bad apples who maybe shouldn't be there.

And finally, a few will make friends and click and have a great time and a much smaller number will walk away with nothing except the experience of being there... which in my opinion, is priceless.

strawberry

Originally posted by Skanger
come on now lads, its not like any of you got into trinity, is it? I met this one guy called neil (black hair, nice girlfriend) at a party by another guy called nemo(blond hair and a goaty) anyway he didn't seem to bright to me, and he was a ctyi'er

Emmm .... what a load of rubbish!

And just to point out that Neil (black hair, nice girlfirend) hasn't quite finished his LC yet, and possibly doesn't even want to go to Trinity

smiles

There are a few different cultures at CTYI.

I happen to know that some of the most ignorant and condescending people I know are people that I met at CTYI, and they look down on everyone they think is not their intellectual equal, yes they are geniuses (bleh!) and they have their little cliques, and they look down at people who don't go to CTYI. But then again they look down at people who DO go to CTYI, just because they can. They find throwing "I went to smart summer school and you didn't" an easier way to win a "i'm more intelligent than you" argument than actually bothering to talk to the people. I think that that attitude was particularly prevalent in the first two years that I was at CTYI (98-99), there was a particular clique which stretched over a few years and they looked down on everyone.

But alternatively I have met some of the most down to earth people there, some of them are some of my best friends, and their friendship means great things to me. Most of them tend to be down to earth, not necessarily geniuses (although some of them are) but just normal people, who got to learn some **** and have some fun at the same time. Neil (foobar) was right when he listed the reasons why someone might have used CTYI to try and claim to be more intelligent than others.

At the end of the day it's not CTYI that makes some people more ignorant than other (as in they look down on people they consider less intelligent than themselves for whatever reasons) ... it's a sub-section of the population, you're going to have pricks and nice people in equal proportions.


As regards being crazy intelligent to get into CTYI ? I really don't think you have to be, but you do have to have some kind of ability to think your way through things, I didn't study for it, I didnt know what CTYI was when my school put me forward to do the SATs.... but I scraped in. And I know people who do incredibly well in school/college that retook the test year after year and still didn't get in. (yes, this did boggle my mind somewhat).

<< Fio >>

Bungalow Bill

"
What about music and engineering or art???
What these don't require any types of intelligence?

---

From what I've seen of the music course, at any rate, a lot of it is about learning off stuff as well. I know people who are ridiculously gifted at music itself but who don't do particularly well on school tests."



Actually fifty percent in Music is given for performance.

strawberry

The department quite clearly knows nothing about music - I'm pretty sure they had a questions on a wonderful song by 'Steps' two years ago. Steps.

Bungalow Bill

That is true about the Steps song but it was in relation to recognising chord progressions and what types of harmony was being used.

The board know plenty about music this was just an example of standard pop formulaic harmony.

Bungalow Bill

]Actually it was s club 7 but it was in relation to recognising chord progressions and what types of harmony was being used.

The board know plenty about music this was just an example of standard pop formulaic harmony.

lordsippa

The thing bout CTYI is that in general the people who go there tend to be smart enough, and you can at least have a decent conversation with them. Also there tends to be a little (or more) geekiness in the hearts of most people you'd meet there. So there are social "cliques" formed but that's usually just cause the people get along well and think along the same lines.

When I first went to CTYI it was to learn more (although I did a creative writing course so make your own conclusions). The next year it was simply to have a laugh with all those kerrrazy kids.

The only superiority thing I have with CTYI is that if you weren't there (and I really don't know if what I'm bout to say rings true anymore), you couldn't have felt the incredible vibe of the place. It wasn't to do with learning at all... It was almost like everyone there was experimenting with freedom and their crazy ideas. It was a place where you could do all these stupid things your parents would die if the knew about. It allowed people to dress funny, it allowed people to express weird political views. Hell, a lot of people came out of the closet there. It was this whole '69 summer of love feel almost.

But man, I've known some RIIIIIIGHT prats to come from there. Oh and on the point of the leaving, I scored JUST above average and haven't gone to college. But at least I had fun

Crash

Originally posted by strawberry
Emmm .... what a load of rubbish!

And just to point out that Neil (black hair, nice girlfirend) hasn't quite finished his LC yet, and possibly doesn't even want to go to Trinity

Yeah see thats just Boston trying to troll badly and failing. Skanger it doesnt work all that well if I know who you are :rolleyes: