Israelis kill Yassin

mr_angry

The New Testement says "Thou shalt not kill", So you excpect Israel to be irradicated is that is because that is what you are saying....

Only if you believe that indiscriminately killing people is the only way to guarantee the safety of the state of Israel - a view to which I, thankfully, don't adhere. Why don't you listen to your posts again objetively? All you are doing is advocating more killing.

Considering you were so well-informed by your time in Israel, perhaps you should go and live on the other side of the West Bank wall for a while. Then, when you realise that people there are as much afraid of Israel as the Israelis are of the Palestinians, you might realise the one fundamental logical conclusion:

Killing people hasn't helped either side.

And I have yet to see a shred of evidence to prove that it has. And I fail to see how blowing up Palastinians, whether they are innocents or mass-murdering b*stards, has protected the state of Israel from attack. As far as I can see, innocent Israeli people are still being blown to bits.

So, tell me - how has killing helped anyone so far?

Wrestlemania

I would have to agree with Woody on a good few points to be honest....

In the UK after Sep,11 and also in Ireland a lot of Islamic Clerics where declaring Jihad on all civilised persons both Gentile and Jew.


There is also mass teachings in schools in the west bank of hate against the Jew, not the Israeli against all Jews...

As in regard to the UN sending people over there, people are entitled to there opinion...whatever it maybe that is Democracy ...


I was born there and yes killing is wrong and is a vicious circle, but people can't stand by and get murdered....a majority of the breaches of the truces are my Islamic Militants!


In response to the crucifixations (cant Spell) it is true, I have heard of Palenstinian Christians that this has happened to and Iran and Syria do it Publically I saw it in Damascus in the mid-1980's and is horrific..

You all have opinions which are not necsarily wrong but More moral and sometimes just misinformed...

The West is anti-Jew and it always has and the US in not a ally in reality of Israel...Sure the South Africans would be more loyal than them...

Being intellectual and well read does not give a person an insight in fact to what is going on...

War is wrong but is always going to be there no matter what!

ArphaRima

"We, Air Force pilots who were raised on the values of Zionism, sacrifice, and contributing to the state of Israel, have always served on the front lines, willing to carry out any mission, whether small or large, to defend and strengthen the state of Israel.

"We, veteran and active pilots alike, who served and still serve the state of Israel for long weeks every year, are opposed to carrying out attack orders that are illegal and immoral of the type the state of Israel has been conducting in the territories.

"We, who were raised to love the state of Israel and contribute to the Zionist enterprise, refuse to take part in Air Force attacks on civilian population centers. We, for whom the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force are an inalienable part of ourselves, refuse to continue to harm innocent civilians.

"These actions are illegal and immoral, and are a direct result of the ongoing occupation which is corrupting all of Israeli society. Perpetuation of the occupation is fatally harming the security of the state of Israel and its moral strength.

"We who serve as active pilots - fighters, leaders, and instructors of the next generation of pilots -- hereby declare that we shall continue to serve in the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force for every mission in defense of the state of Israel."

I know they are only so-called reserves, but these guys are ex active service. Technically every person above age except for the orthodox jews are required to be trained in the military.

The West is anti-Jew and it always has and the US in not a ally in reality of Israel...Sure the South Africans would be more loyal than them...

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Miscellaneous/Years_of_US_UN_Vetoes.htm
Here is a list of the US vetoes in the UN over the last 30 years. Read it.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S. Aid to Israel
Grand Total
$84,854,827,200
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)
"This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen."


Except for the few exemptions for medical or religious reasons, at the age of 18 every Israeli Jew, man or woman, is supposed to join the army and serve for about three years. Until they are around 45, many Israeli citizens—mainly men—are required to serve annually in the reserves. These are in addition to the huge number of Israelis who are career soldiers. Thus, the famous quote: “Israel isn’t a nation that has an army, it’s an army that has a nation.”

Johnny Versace

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
The West is anti-Jew and it always has and the US in not a ally in reality of Israel...Sure the South Africans would be more loyal than them...

I totally disagree with this.

Firstly, this anti-jew thing is totally over played. Everything is anti-jew these days. Have you seen "the passion of the christ"? Apparantly that is anti-jew because it shows a few priests who are crazy.

And saying America is not an ally of Israel? WTF? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. America bends over for Israel on a daily basis.

Zombrex

<removed by me cause it was breaking the rules and pissing off the mod (as one can see below). Apologies to all concerned>

bonkey

Originally posted by Wicknight
Do you actually have anything constructive to add?

All I see in that last post of yours is a complaint which should have been directed to the mods, and not put in-thread, followed by a personal insult, which has no place in the conversation either.

So after flouting rules with the first two sentences - neither of which added anything to the discsussion - you had the absolute cheek to ask if the target of your affection was going to add constructively to the conversation????

Now why doesn't everyone take a deep breath, calm down, and try this a bit more rationally?

jc

Ailill

Originally posted by halkar

For me there is no difference between Israel sending gunships and tanks on civilians and suicide bombers. If Hamas is a terrorist group, Israel is a terrorist country .

Now I disagree with you there. I think there is a crucial difference between the tactics of Hamas & Co. and Israel. Israel usually targets only those people who are involved in terrorism, these attacks are carefully planned to minimse the effect on the general population.

On the other hand, Hamas & Co. just bomb anybody at all who is Jewish. So, I have no sympathy for Yassin or any other preacher of racist hatred.

At the same time I don't think Israel should be carrying out acts like this, it's not right for a democratic state to act like this, in any way.

I wonder how many Americans actually realise that their hard earned dollars are funding these aggressive acts?

sovtek

Originally posted by Ailill
Now I disagree with you there. I think there is a crucial difference between the tactics of Hamas & Co. and Israel. Israel usually targets only those people who are involved in terrorism, these attacks are carefully planned to minimse the effect on the general population.

I don't really understand how you think that when so many innocent civilians are killed on a daily basis by the IDF. Then you see footage of the IDF shooting teenagers throwing rocks.
Using F-16's to target a militant's house??? That's not careful military operation by any stretch IMHO.

On the other hand, Hamas & Co. just bomb anybody at all who is Jewish.

Crap! They do carry out suicide bombings, usually after an incursion or assassination of one of their leaders (not that I'm condoning that either). But they more often attack military targets as well as settlers who carry out attacks on the general Palestinian population.
If they just wanted to kill Jews they'd have a better chance doing suicide bombings in New York.

At the same time I don't think Israel should be carrying out acts like this, it's not right for a democratic state to act like this, in any way.

Then why is that not terrorism?

I wonder how many Americans actually realise that their hard earned dollars are funding these aggressive acts?

/me throws my hand up oh oh oh !!!! over here over here!!!!!

Besides that US soldiers have recently been training with the IDF to learn how to carry out these same tactics on the people of Iraq, after seeing how well they work in the West Bank (that's sarcasm if you didn't catch it).
Also the Israeli government gives an awful lot of American citizens incentives to come and live in the illegal settlements in the West Bank.

Zombrex

Originally posted by Ailill
Israel usually targets only those people who are involved in terrorism, these attacks are carefully planned to minimse the effect on the general population.

I am not to sure about that. Their tactics seem to be a bit more on the lines of "f*ck it, fire away, if we hit him we hit him."

One of the reasons (I would imagine) that the Palestinians are so pissed off with Israel is because they keep killing civilians in these attacks, and they don't really seem to give a damn.

Whether Hamas blow up a bus, or IDF fire a couple of missles at a house, you still end up with a load of dead people. At least Hamas, as horrific as their attacks are, are honest when they say they are trying to kill as many Jews as they can. The IDF saying "well we were only trying to hit one person in that appartment block we leveled" is a pretty terrible excuse for killing a load of civilians.

bonkey

Originally posted by Ailill
Israel usually targets only those people who are involved in terrorism, these attacks are carefully planned to minimse the effect on the general population.

I'm not sure I would fully agree with that. Israel usually targets only those people who it believes are involved in terrorism, and does so in an ex-judicial manner which often involves targetting these people with non-precision weaponry whilst in a public arena.

I don't honestly think that can be called minimal effect....but then again, I have this strange notion that deciding civilian lives are worth less than soldiers' is wrong....but its apparently a reasonable decision to make for military operations these days.

On the other hand, Hamas & Co. just bomb anybody at all who is Jewish.

Israeli, not Jewish, surely? But otherwise I'd agree.

I wonder how many Americans actually realise that their hard earned dollars are funding these aggressive acts?

More importantly - how many actually care?

Many, I am sure, will defend these aggressive acts in the same way I would expect Biffa to were to join in this discussion - by iterating the tried and trusted mantra that all Israel is doing with these actions is exerting its right to self-defence, and that they are not assassinations / ex-judiciary killings, but rather justifiable acts of self-defence.

And of course, many will oppose them and be branded anti-Semitic for doing so, continuing the currently popular trend of inability to distinguish between pathological or irrational prejudice of a group, and criticism of a specific action.

Wrestlemania

I will say one thing only.....

You are misinformed...
Your Facts are wrong.
And believe it or believe it not you are acting like Nazi's...

People die yes I know and it is terrible but anti-semitism is rife and most views on this thread are that...Why you will question over and over again because you can sit in your arm chair at night and say look at those "f**king Israelis and poor palestinians...

You are hyprocrites....I wont explain myself because there is no point..you have not being there and have not suffered...I have at first hand had friends die on night out..why because they were Jews...

You will all try and say the Holocaust never happened aswell...

Yes there is good and bad on every side but I rather be under democratic Israeli rule than undemocratic PA rule...

As a former Israeli Solider who has done his national service, I am proud of my country and also the settlements as all Jews and Christian Zionists have complete right to Alliayah..

I know I will get a barrage of insults and so called intelluctual arguements and so be it but you are wrong very wrong so DEAL WITH IT.

Seaneh

Now I am not a big Isreal supporter, but i do agree with this killing.
It's a good thing the man is dead, he should have been killed 20 years ago, I dont give a **** if he is in a wheelchair, the man was a legitimate target the second he told 20something year olds that bombing a school bus was a good idea, and the fact that he has personally ordered most of them compounds that legitimacy.
The man was no better than hittler, or Stalin or anyone else who ordered the killing for hundreds of children.
no matter what the reason the killing of innocent children is not acceptable, and anyone who denies that Isreal was right to kill the man needs thier fu<king head examined.
The man was just evil, smiple as.

Zombrex

Originally posted by Seaneh
The man was no better than hittler, or Stalin or anyone else who ordered the killing for hundreds of children.

Israel kill children in their attacks and raid all the time. I am not saying this man didn't deserve to die, I am saying Israel doesn't have to moral high ground here.

But it is not about right and wrong. It is about doing something really stupid and not doing something really stupid.

Question - What is Israel hoping to achieve by this?

Will it halt attacks against its people? - No, it is going to make them 10 times worse.

Will it help with international support for Israel? - No, it has been publically comdemned by even Israels closest allies.

Will it destructure Hamas? Possibly for the short term, but I would bet their are 20 people ready to take his place.

Will it help the peace process at all? Absolutly not. It has killed the peace process for years, if not decades.

What exactly was the point of this attack? It was carried out by people who believe that striking at Hamas and being seen to be strong and defient, is more important than the peace process, and dare I say it, more important than Jews being killed on the streets of Israel.

Ironically the IDF and Hamas both seem to think that the same short term signs of strength, revenge and killing are more important than any attempt to form a workable situation in the middle east.

To anyone who supports this action, what do you believe the long term achievements of it will be?

mr_angry

Originally posted by bonkey
And of course, many will oppose them and be branded anti-Semitic for doing so, continuing the currently popular trend of inability to distinguish between pathological or irrational prejudice of a group, and criticism of a specific action.

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
I will say one thing only.....

You are misinformed...
Your Facts are wrong.
And believe it or believe it not you are acting like Nazi's...

People die yes I know and it is terrible but anti-semitism is rife and most views on this thread are that...Why you will question over and over again because you can sit in your arm chair at night and say look at those "f**king Israelis and poor palestinians...

You are hyprocrites....I wont explain myself because there is no point..you have not being there and have not suffered...I have at first hand had friends die on night out..why because they were Jews...

You will all try and say the Holocaust never happened aswell...

Yes there is good and bad on every side but I rather be under democratic Israeli rule than undemocratic PA rule...

As a former Israeli Solider who has done his national service, I am proud of my country and also the settlements as all Jews and Christian Zionists have complete right to Alliayah..

I know I will get a barrage of insults and so called intelluctual arguements and so be it but you are wrong very wrong so DEAL WITH IT.

I know you're entitled to your opinion Wrestlemania, but I simply CANNOT BELIEVE that you posted what you did directly after the preceeding comment. I don't think I really need to go any further. If you want to know why people disagree with you, thats why. I actually thought you were joking when I first read it.

bonkey

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
And believe it or believe it not you are acting like Nazi's...

Funny you should mention that. I see increasing amounts of allegations in the current media about "growing anti-semitism in Europe".

Hand in hand I see increasing numbers of Israelis and American Jews saying "you are just like Hitler", "you are no different to the Nazis" and other such rubbish.

Here's something to stop and think about. Who's breeding hatred here? Those damned Europeans who are calmly and rationally saying "what you do is wrong", or those who offer a response along the lines of "WHAT??? How dare you criticise our actions, you fscking Jew-Hating Nazi".

Yes, there are anti-Semites around. However, telling everyone who doesn't love the Israeli nation and every single one of its actions to the highest of their ability that this "failure" makes them a nazi is not going to win anyone any favours.

but anti-semitism is rife

Perhaps.

and most views on this thread are that...

If you genuinely believe that, ask yourself one simple question....

Why are all of these semites only ever criticising Israeli Jews, and occasionally American Jews (for their hand in helping encourage the US to support Israel)? Why are they not looking to persecute the Jews in their own country, which would be far easier, surely?

can sit in your arm chair at night and say look at those "f**king Israelis and poor palestinians...

No, I only say something that when its Palestinians who have died at the hands of Israelis....and I would qualify it more as "f**king heavy-handed Israeli tactics...." than "f**king Israeli's".

When its the other way around, I generally say "F**king Palestinian terrorists and the poor Israelis.

But I guess I'm just hiding my latent anti-semitism by actually criticsing those as I see being responsible on both sides, rather than one entire cultural/racial/religious group.....

I wont explain myself because there is no point..

WEll, if you think I'm going to simply allow you to use this forum as a soapbox to shout your particular flavour of invective and bile from, you are very much mistaken. If you are not interested in joining in the discussion, then don't.

You will all try and say the Holocaust never happened aswell...

a) Innocent until proven guilty. Its a nice concept. You should try it.
b) I have neverseen anyone on this forum make such a ludicrous statement as Holocause denial
c) and if they did, I would expect them to back up their statements in the same way that I did to woody and his "9 out of 10 arabs" comment earlier. ANd you know what...I'll treat them in the same way should they fail to meet my standards or retract the statement - that being with a banning, because such unfounded statements are tantamount to racial slurring.

But let me guess - while I would be right to do that to anyone questioning the Holocaust, asking a supporter of Israel to back his anti-Arab statements would be anti-Semitic?????

I know I will get a barrage of insults

And if you do, they will be dealt with in the same manner as any other directed insults here....regardless of who is making them.

and so-called intelluctual arguements and so be it but you are wrong very wrong so DEAL WITH IT.

So, you know we have wrong information, you believe you have the right information....and rather than rationally discuss with us why we are wrong, safe in the knowledge that you are correct....you get worked up, refuse to discuss things, and shout at us that we're wrong...just 'cause...and to shut up and cope about it?

Did it ever occur to you that some of this alleged anti-Semitism is just people who don't like that arrogance being shoved in their face by anyone???

jc

halkar

Holocaust? Why does this have to come play now?
So what is going on in middle east? slowly but surely. It is a fact that there are more Palestinians dead then Israeli's and many are civilians just like Israelis. I condemn Palestinians suicidal tactics but they don't have state of the art advanced war machines and trained army as Israel do and they won't get far with their rusty AK47s either.
I wonder if Palestinians had the same advanced weaponary and sent few missiles on Sharon's head, what would the reaction be like? After all for them Sharon is a head of terrorists too. Having said about the reactions to this US as yet to condem, while most of the world did. If as I said if it was other side around and Sharon got killed by palestinnians US would be the first raising their voice. Go figure.

sceptre

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
I will say one thing only.....

You are misinformed...
Your Facts are wrong.
And believe it or believe it not you are acting like Nazi's...

Firstly that's three things and added to the paragraphs I decided not to bother quoting it summed to about ten things.

Secondly I'm not as anti-Israel as some posters on this forum. Conversely I'm not as pro-Israel as some posters on this forum. However, I'll predict a poster within ten posts replying to yours by outlining how it could be said that the Israeli government and army are acting like Nazis by killing people with relative lack of discrimination based on race and the possibility that they might be or might know enemies of the State, expanding their borders to create a buffer zone or lebensraum where people are encouraged to settle while non-citizens are encouraged to keep to defined zones and the willingness of Mossad to take out enemies of the State and people in foreign countries, either through assassination or kidnapping. I'm just waving the warning flag now so you can prepare the vitriol for the hazard ahead.

Obviously there are a few ingredients missing, which is why I would personally be slow to classify the Israeli government as the bullied become the bully. I'd classify the government in the past few years as more of a lost waif and I feel genuine pity for the non-bigots, both Jews and Arabs, who have to put up with an elected government of hatemongers. Obviously given that they were elected in a democratic election, the sane types are in the minority. Pity that.

Johnny Versace

I think it's pretty obvious Wrestlemania is trolling.

No one is that retarded.

gandalf

Johnny Versace banned

Hobbes

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
I would have to agree with Woody on a good few points to be honest....

In the UK after Sep,11 and also in Ireland a lot of Islamic Clerics where declaring Jihad on all civilised persons both Gentile and Jew.

Linkage please.

Hey guess what Israel was doing when the towers were falling? Yes thats right they invaded palistine in a large number of tanks. They thought they could get away with it as people would be looking elsewhere.

There is also mass teachings in schools in the west bank of hate against the Jew, not the Israeli against all Jews...

Sadly the reverse is true, however if people bothered to actually do some research you would know that Jewish God is the same god as the Islamic god.

As in regard to the UN sending people over there, people are entitled to there opinion...whatever it maybe that is Democracy ...

A large number of UN people in palistine have been shot and killed. So much so the UN made an announcement about it some time ago. Palistine asked for UN troops, Isreal* doesn't want them there.

a majority of the breaches of the truces are my Islamic Militants!

You know news can be subjective in the areas. Breaches of truces? Match that up with people killed.

In response to the crucifixations (cant Spell) it is true, I have heard of Palenstinian Christians that this has happened to and Iran and Syria do it Publically I saw it in Damascus in the mid-1980's and is horrific..

How about some news reports on it? If it was that horrific it would of been reported.

The West is anti-Jew and it always has and the US in not a ally in reality of Israel...

What pisses me off is how people try to tie Israel+Jewish together. "You hate what a country is doing so you must hate all jewish people", so does that mean the open protests in Israel by Israelis are because they hate themselves?

If you are going to spout stuff please put links.

To those who think violence solves anything ask yourself this. Israel assinated one of the only Hama leaders who wanted a ceasefire. By killing him do you think there will be (a) less violence or (b) more violence. Please use both sides of the paper to explain why.

* When I say Israel I mean the current administration, or rather the assholes who continue to let this go on. There are a large number of people in Israel who don't want this sh!t to go and are just as horrified as what goes on in both sides.

Wrestlemania

After several deep breaths mods, you have a good balanced opinion I commend you on that...Yes some things I said may have being inflamitory..That I apologise to who has been insulted...

I wont change my opinion as we all have a right to our own weither right or wrong..

An peace would be nice as the Whole Land of Israel and surrounding area's is both beautiful...And remember the Jew and the Arab are brothers who now have sibling rivalary which side is right wrong maybe none...

When a child dies no matter arab or jew they are a child, when a soldier dies or a terrorist that is the path they choose to take....

In response to horrific acts being carried out on jews and Christians it is usually not transmiited to the west and maybe in the www.jpost.com and also I believe some presbyterian sites which i saw several years ago...what happen to jesus still happens to this day...but again the west is deaf and uninformed of this...


Sometimes this makes me all to tired to be honest and sad but that is life...like it or like it not!

Hobbes

So you have no actual evidence then?

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

Returning to the news point atm and away slightly from the standard stone-throwing arguments..


Yes, Yassin was the figurehead of an organization that advocates violence, that in its central doctrine advocates the erradication of Israel, one Israeli at a time.

So, how do you defeat a murderous message like that....well, if you're Ariel Sharon you do it the only way you know how- with murder! Yes, that's what it is- not "extra-judicial killing" or "assasination" or "targeted killing". Those statements while accurate, could be applied to ANY premeditated taking of human life. If some guy kills his wife in an appartment it's Murder 1, if a government kills anyone outside of due process it's "targeted killing"? I'm sorry, not even Clarence Thomas would swallow that piece of dogmatic tripe.

The rule of law must apply if there is to be any order in any society- it boggles the mind how anyone could think differently. What I would like to know, makes a Hamas member any different from any other organized criminal? I don't seem to recall the Feds taking a helicopter gunship to John Gotti, and he individually was responsible for far more deaths than Yassin could have been. Both are/were criminals and both should be dealt with via the rule of law. Terrorism in most democracies is dealt with as a crime- at the most, special detention powers allow police to question terrorist suspects for 7-14 days in the UK, and formerly 6 days in the US. Although these days all you need is the feds to declare ANYONE (citizen, non-citizen, fetus) an "unlawful combatant" and they can be detained indefinitely. That's another story of course

As for the boards.ie legal scholars who will jump in and claim that there is no rule of law in the occupied territories.... It's absurd to say that the rule of law "does not apply" in the West Bank or Gaza and then turn around and demand that the Palestinian Authority prosecute their own via the rule of law. Israeli forces enter and leave land that isn't theirs under the Oslo accords, kill any criminal suspect via helicopter gunship without due process, shoot anything vaguely suspicious (particularly if it happens to throw a small stone). All that, and the Palestinians are expected to apply the rule of law. I would suggest that Israel being the "democracy" and the "good guys" start leading by example.

A good start might be to remove apartheid provisions from Israeli legislation. You know, the legal provisions restricting the movement of Palestinians, the mandate of ID cards even for young children, prohibition of public jobs. Sounds rather like South Africa to me, especially given that the majority of recent suburban construction is carried out with cheap Palestinian labor. Palestinians are now being walled in, their very own ghetto. A poster on this thread remarked (with some irony I think) that we were all Nazis and that Israel had to be right regardless of consequence. Well, "special registration" of Palestinian workers, movement restrictions, racial reservation of jobs, abridgement of civil rights based on race. These sound oddly like what the Nazis brought into being, and certainly would fit right in with Botha's cyclops vision of politics.

As far as the realpolitik implications of Yassin's death go- I think it's too early to judge for all of us. We're in uncharted territory here, never before have Israel killed a terrorist leader. 2/i-cs yes, bomb experts yes, but never the figurehead. In the short term it will certainly mean unchecked violence. However, I personally hold nothing but revulsion for the Rattisis and Yassins of this world who send young men out to die where they would never go. Practically for a solution to happen, prosecution and fair rule of law is the route. If a war of attrition is the goal (as it seems to be for the Sharon government) then killing one leader and creating a hundred more angry and willing human bombs is probably the best way to go about it.

One final cautionary point- those who take the attitude "My country, right or wrong", run the very real risk of falling into the same idealogical enclave as Osama bin Laden, Paul Wolfowitz and William Kristol. If you so wish to inhabit this enclave, then ware the company you keep, as Teddy Roosevelt once said.

Zombrex

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
what happen to jesus still happens to this day

wasn't Jesus killed by Jews and Romans? Muslims hadn't been invented yet.

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by woody

Get you left wing, western, no war Cr*p ideas and think about them, they are wrong,live in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem for a few months and you will soon see how barbaric the Palenstinians are....
/quote]

Yup. You'll convince a lot of people with that line of argument.

I have spent time in Israel, as it happens. And guess what? The Arabs were infinitely the more civil, friendly, humourous and open hearted of the two peoples. Sure the Israelis were wealthier.....comparitively speaking, and more Western but the Palestinians were far more likable. In my experience.

And before you think that that's the typical attitude of a trendy lefty with vestigial Irish Catholic antisemitic traits, ponder this: a hundred years ago and more, a lot of Irish public opinion was Pro Jewish to the point of being Zionist.

Daniel O'Connell was a firm supporter of Jewish emancipation in Britain. He had received Jewish support for his Catholic emancipation campaign and was happy to return the favour when it had been granted (see Conor Cruise O'Brien: The Siege)

Michael Davitt was an active Zionist, travelling to the Russian Empire to report on the pogroms there at the end of the 19th century and writing in favour of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. (see Amos Elon: The Israelis, Fathers and Sons)

Michael Collins had several Jewish colleagues whom he entrusted with his life, one of them being his solicitor Michael Noyk, whose great nephew, sadly, is that arch neocon nitwit Mark Steyn whose columns sully the Irish Times on a Monday.

Many Irish people identified with an oppressed people who wanted to live in peace in their own country free from oppression and exploitation.

They still do. It's just that those more deserving of that sympathy now are the Palestinians.

ArphaRima

Many Irish people identified with an oppressed people who wanted to live in peace in their own country free from oppression and exploitation.

I think that you'll find Irish foreign policy reflects this view. I give a silent cheer every time I hear of Ireland making comments in the UN or EU for Palestinian benefit.

in response to horrific acts being carried out on jews and Christians it is usually not transmiited to the west .....

I spent an hour last week trying to find reference to the crucification of christians in Iran. Couldnt find any. If you have any evidence of this please do let us know.
What I would say is that linking the plight of jews and christians around the world will not gain any sympathy from me or many others for Israeli actions against palestinians.

What pisses me off is how people try to tie Israel+Jewish together. "You hate what a country is doing so you must hate all jewish people", so does that mean the open protests in Israel by Israelis are because they hate themselves?

Believe it or not I read an article on this a while ago. Your question is more valid than you think. I'll see if i can find it.
http://masada2000.org/selfhate.html
Couldnt find the article, but did find this site. Scary stuff.

bug

Israel usually targets only those people who are involved in terrorism, these attacks are carefully planned to minimse the effect on the general population

yes the carefully planned - running tanks into gaza when noones looking, or watching something more media consuming/ or newsworthy. Carefully aiming at palastinian children throwing stones and the odd journalist. Carefully running tanks into peoples homes and destroying their infrastructure. Carefully destroying all the fruit trees in one area that they pulled put of purely so the palastinians cant have them. Yes they carefully plan their terrorism alright, they have the military strength and media pull to do it.

Wrestlemania

Again I see more anti- Israeli Sentiment, this again is proof that people think the State of Israel is nothing more than a Terrorist state...


I don't see Israeli Children or Tennagers blowing themselve up at non-military targets, I see the likes of Hamas,Fatah and So on so forth sending brain washed children out to blow themselves up in the the name of Radical Islam....and there supposed land...

Israel has a right to defend itself as it does not cause breaks in truces it is done nearly 99% of the time by Islam Militants but we all see the poor palenstinan...houses bulldozed , children shot at etc... you never see the settler with his head blow apart and a dead child in his//her arms it is geared toward our Islamic friends who Blow up Planes with Innocent Civilians, Kill Olympians, Throw Paraplegics over board of ships and then these people pose as honest politicians....


Is'nt it ironic that the palenstinian people (not the stone throwers,instigators or evil terrorists) rather be under an Israel government, elected by them and the Israelis than the Corrupt PA....


You will all throw your know it all left wing comments back and quote upon quote me but the fact is that we are in the end days and it wont be the likes of Yasser Arafat or Yassin being looked on favourably it will be Strong Leader like Sharon who will..

This entire thread is to be honest based on one things anti-semtisim, as if the Arabs had the guns and were killing Jews you would all do the same thing that was done in World War 2 ...LOOK AWAY...

I am very right and I am open and broad minded but I would love to bring a few of you out there and you see how these people act...Not the Joe soap but your lovely suicide bombers...and there families and the people who support them....


I am waiting for the Quotes upon Quotes but as Hall Lindsay says you are idiots and blinded by Media Hype and Hatred towards the People of Israel...

ArphaRima

Only because Wrestlemania has posted over 100 posts have I decided this isn't a troll.

I hate the word racist, I don't really use it so I wont. But your argument is quite flawed, but I think you are unwilling to take the facts and extract the truth, and will only spew half-truths fuelled by emotion on this topic.

What I will say is that you are playing the role that many arabs would like you to. Stand on your soapbox, make allegations, insult a people, and then tar anyone who speaks against your viewpoint with "anti-semitic".

bonkey

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
as Hall Lindsay says you are idiots and blinded by Media Hype and Hatred towards the People of Israel...

Jut because you feel aggrieved doesn't give you the right to ignore the rules.

One week ban for the insults.

Strangely enough, W'mania will probably fail to see the irony that this ban is being provided for the same reason that people criticise Israel. It is not that people have a problem with Israeli's right to something, it is that they have a problem with the manner in which that right is exercised.

jc