Israelis kill Yassin

Sand

And who is government and who are the terrorists? and why? and who decides that?

The Government would be the Israeli government and the terrorists would be the suicide bombers. Unless of course youre claiming the Palestinian Authority is actually sending the suicide bombers? Careful, its naughty to say that about Arafat.

Who decides that? Well Sharon and co are the Israeli government. Whichever way you look at it. Who decides Hamas are terrorists? Hamas and other palestinian organisations do. They deliberately target and murder civillians - deliberately, civillians arent "collateral damage", they arent accidents, they arent mistakes - they are the targets. If a suicide bomber doesnt kill civillians then theyve ****ed up. One suicide bomber in a supermarket killed an 81 year old man out shopping and injured 130 others. Thats a successful palestinian attack. When that 10 year old boy was taken alive and his bomb disarmed that was an unsuccessful palestinian attack.

Hence they are terrorists. They define themselves as terrorists by their actions. they might be terrrorists with a goal you might be sympathetic too - a free palestinian homeland - but they are terrorists, not guerillas, not freedom fighters, not a heroic resistance. Terrorists.

Now Im going to have to balance that cos to actually call Hamas what they are upsets a lot of people - The Israelis are a government, but they are an oppressive one which which has invaded and is attempting to colonise palestinian land. The palestinians are *absolutely* right in their resistance to this so long as it refrains from terrorism - Guerilla attacks on the IDF or Israeli politicians; grand. Civil disobedience; grand. Terrorist attacks on Israeli civillians ( even settlers - they are civillians and the rules of warfare dont distinguish between "innocent" civillians and civillians "who are asking for it"); Wrong.

Unfortunately a lot of people who support the Palestinians desire for their own state seem to feel their suffering gives them some sort of right to commit atrocities in return - that its understandable, that wed all do the same if we were in their shoes. The holocaust does not give Israel the right to commit inhumane acts against Palestinians. The oppression of the Israelis does not give the Palestinians any right to commit atrocities.

Israel has got away with so much in the occupied terretories because of the enemy they are fighting. Whilst the Palestinians say its sheer desperation that makes them murder civillians the Israelis say they guys were fighting are child killing scum and you dont know what were up against so you cant judge us. I know it sounds crazy - but if the Palestinians laid off murdering civillians then perhaps it would advance their cause a lot farther.

halkar

naughty? That is what Israel calls Arafat and he is in their short list too and they are not denying that either. So what is next? Kill all the leaders and talk to who? These leaders did not just come out yesterday, they have been around for decades for the same cause and Palestinian respects and listens them. It doesn't matter for them if you go out and scream that their leaders are terrorists.

And we have seen about Israel's "collateral damage", accidents and mistakes in 1996 UN compound in Qana, Lebanon . Nad many more of these "collateral damage", accidents and mistakes of Israel Government.

Sand

naughty? That is what Israel calls Arafat and he is in their short list too and they are not denying that either. So what is next? Kill all the leaders and talk to who? These leaders did not just come out yesterday, they have been around for decades for the same cause and Palestinian respects and listens them. It doesn't matter for them if you go out and scream that their leaders are terrorists.

Then theyll talk to whoever comes as the new leader, and if doesnt want to talk theyll kill him too and so on and so forth till a moderate leadership either appears or it becomes very bad for your health to be a leader of a terrorist organisation - this is their logic. I dont know if it will work because theyre dealing with fanatics.

If Arafat is willing to send people to die and exploit their deaths then he must be willing to accept he can be targeted as well. If not, what possible motivation does he have for ending the conflict - its only other people who are dying?

Now before you go all "what about the israelis, blah blah blah" this works in reverse too - the IDF are in the occupied terretories because Sharon orders them there, he is thus just as valid a target as any IDF soldier and with his death the possiblity of a more moderate leadership arises.

And Im not screaming their leaders are terrorists , they are - they are funding, financing and directing terrorist attacks. They are terrorists as a result of their own actions, not because I call them such, and theyre not going to stop being terrorists simply because you try to ignore that they are.

woody

Halkar I was in Qana (21st Irish Component, Unifil) just before and after it...Hizbollah fired a Katusha Rocket from Outside the UN Fijian Compund...The Unmanned drone flew over and sent back cor-ordinates to the 155MM M109's SP Guns and the pounded the position..Yes civilians were got and the guns could not be called off as they were firing on rotary magazines( 15 to 20 Rounds) and about 15 to 20 guns... I heard both Irish and Fijians telling the Israelis to check there fire..It was an accident and Members of Amal and Hizbollah admitted to me days later that is was done on purpose for propaganda....

It was not a massacre it was an awful horrible mistake and I helped clean out the containers of human remains...This was part of the 17 day war and I am a supporter of Israel still..This has happened in all wars..It is not nice but unfortunately happens..

halkar

Yep, sure anything that Israel and US does in Middle East these days are accidents and mistakes, I wonder how many of those accidents and mistakes than we don't know off. :rolleyes:

woody

Never Mind there is no point reasoning...

daveirl

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halkar

Originally posted by daveirl
Agreed. I know I can't believe that people actually think that teenage Israeli kids deserve to be attacked by suicide bombers.

And you beleive snipers and tanks pointing to kids, apaches hoovering above houses everyday and night?

sceptre

Originally posted by halkar
And you beleive snipers and tanks pointing to kids, apaches hoovering above houses everyday and night?

There's a clause missing from the above sentence. How were you planning on finishing it? If it was by adding "... is a good thing?", I don't think anyone's been suggesting it to be so.

halkar

None of them are good things. I don't approve what either side does but if you can justify Israel's actions one must think what choice does Palestinians have. These people are not living anyway, with no freedom of trade, no water, no power, both controlled by Israel and no future, so what to expect? Israel will not give the lands they have taken and there will probably never be a Palestine state. Not as long as they are surrounded by Israel. If you take a look at the original UN map and the Map of Israel now, you can see the picture. And istead of stopping they are still building on these lands and more. To me policy of Israel is, take the land, build, put your own people and whatever happens next. They just don't care of the concequences and they certainly don't care what the UN or world thinks. Everyone wants peace, but without both sides contributing this is far from realty.

I think world should learn their lessons from terrorism and understand that terrorism can not be stopped with terrorism and that is what the US doing. Instead of looking at the root of the problems. So called fight for terrorism of US policy clearly a failiure and made the world worst than ever. Me thinks!

daveirl

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