dark knight returns/watchmen

mwnger

Just reread both these comic classics recently and noticed some obvious parallels -both were released in and around 1986, but does anyone know which one came out first? Or, more importantly, which one was written first? I wanna know if Miller ripped off Moore, or vise-versa.

yossarin

wheres the rip off ?
(apart from "superheros are all facists really")

mwnger

Well, the whole idea of the passing of time -a major theme in watchmen in particular-which is something that can never be dealt with in regular super-hero stories for obvious reasons (Alan Moore goes into this in his guest introduction to TDKR).
Both have the Cold War and the threat of nuclear destruction as a background to the main plot.
Superman and Doc Manhatten (Watchmen's Superman equivalent) have both been co-opted by the U.S. government to do their bidding. Before the events of both stories begin we discover that the authorities cracked down on "costumed vigilantes", as they felt threatened by their power and unaccountable behaviour- in Watchmen this occurs under the Keene Act, but in Dark Knight details are left vague.
Lastly, without wanting to spoil anything for people who haven't read them, both end with a face-off between a god-like super-being and a really rich guy with no powers but makes up for it with his great intellect and so forth.

Also, wanna ask people which they think is the best between the two stories? I'd plump for Watchmen myself.

D-Generate

Well to have a Cold War Fear based story is not all that uncommon considering around the time of them being penned the threat of nuclear war was still very promenant.
I find TDKR the better comment, basically because I am a big fan of Batman and also the characters in Watchman were new to me and I didn't feel as strong a connection with them as I did with a character like Batman who we saw aged and very different to previous incarnations.

I kinda considered Batman to have socialist leanings in TDKR and especially in the Dark Knight Strikes Again. He was looking for the power to be restored to the people rather than the government having such control.

mwnger

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love TDKR as well. I just found Watchmen that slight bit better. Concerning DK Strikes Again -Batman has become a cross between Che Guevara and Tyler Durden by that time. But he's had a change of political heart since DK Returns it seems to me. Miller portrays him as a fascist in that, a kind of Dirty Harry type, a principled reactionary (bit like Rorschach as well). Remember when Batman explains why he modified the Batmobile into a tank? "To put down some nasty riots in Robinson Park" -anti-war protesters maybe? He's total Nazi in it! Fortunately, as we know, he has a change of heart.

Venom

DK2 was ****e and dosent even deserve to be mention in the same thread as Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns. As for which of the two came first question I think is was Watchmen, but Im to lazy to go and dig up my original comics to be 100% sure lol.

Bartman

Just a quick question for you Alan Moore fans, Watchmen or From Hell? I'd have to say From Hell. And I think Watchmen was better than TDKR

ixoy

Originally posted by Bartman
Just a quick question for you Alan Moore fans, Watchmen or From Hell? I'd have to say From Hell. And I think Watchmen was better than TDKR

For actual writing skills - I'll say "From Hell". However, "Watchmen" has some great ideas (e.g.: the parallel pirate story in the comic book within a comic book) and the ending. Man I love that ending. I really really really really love it :cool:

mwnger

Funny you should mention the pirate story in Watchmen - just recently noticed that Pirates of the Carribean ripped it off. Curse of the Black Freighter and Curse of the Black Pearl? A crew of zombie pirates? An unusual escape from an island (even though Jack Sparrow made it up)? And what about...? No, wait, that's it.