IrelandOffline - Lots done but what next ?

yellum

Just to start with, I've had my run-ins with the IOFFL Committee many a time and have been a detractor and antagoniser on more than one but less than a dozen times.

This post is not meant to be a dig at these people who have worked so hard on everyones behalf and in the end haven't received a whole heap of praise. What I am posting below is my honest opinion and I hope it might cause some debate and feedback from the Committee.

So where does IrelandOffline stand now ?

What I can see is:

Flat Rate Net Access is here and its reasonably priced.
Broadband Net Access is here and its becoming reasonable.

These objectives that IOFFL started with have been met on paper at least.

[ Please correct this if I'm wrong ]
So IOFFL have concentrated on getting access to those that won't get broadband through phonelines. They've chosen getting people wireless broadband. They have been promoting the use of Group Broadband Schemes as models to follow and the government so far haven't gotten the message properly, but hopefully given time they will.

But should this be the main or only objective for IrelandOffline ? Like it or not guys you have also become the Telecom Consumer Affairs/ Activism group for Irish people. Have a look at the posts on this forum and in Broadband. They are filled with people who are meant to be able to get BB but cannot. They are rural and suburban dwellers. There are many who can get Broadband but there are also many who will never get it. People are looking at every conceivable way to get themselves broadband. Right now there are 20-30% maybe that will not have a chance of getting broadband but will this increase and not decrease with a crumbling eircom network. There maybe new fibre rings but all the local loops are still in eircoms grip.

Also while we have various choices of broadband provider they are still mainly reselling Eircom. So again as Eircoms systems erode, those with broadband and who just passed the line test may find in 12 months they no longer have a working line for BB and theres nothing they can do.

There are many other things which I feel should be covered by IOFFL such as:

1) The USO from Hell
This USO allows Eircom to tell anyone to take a hike if they want any kind of net access. Zero k is not Functional Internet Access. With the recent news that the Eircom Network is falling apart the referencing of that part of the USo is going to become more and more common to anyone that complains. Heres a nasty statistic: 1 Million line failure reports last year.

2) A limp, waste of a Communications Regulator
This is the regulator that allowed Eircom to massively increase our line rental, split our lines and not invest in their network but channel all money out of the company and into some rich guys pockets.

Communication by both phone and internet is as crucial as water and electricity. Instead we may find ourselves without this if Eircom is allowed to let their network rot.

3) The Government/Politicos needing more education on what we the people want.
Ok, the government made some inroads, and Dermot was looking so well for a while there but then he seemed to turn into an Eircom apologist. We're still falling behind compared to other countries progress. The Gov is shoveling money into projects but where are they going to go if they are mismanaged. Politicians need to know what they need to be doing. Hardly any of them is a Telco expert and understands the Irish perspective. They need to be shown.

4) Educating the general population.
Probably the hardest thing to do. Get them to know their rights and to cause a fuss with their TDs, Councillors and anyone else that they can vote out. The line-rental hike would have been a great launchpad for getting people to realise how much they are being messed about with.

5) Mobilising the memberbase. I always go on about it but I strongly believe that the grassroots can make huge impacts. Everyone is referencing the Howard Dean campaign when it comes to grassroots and organising but its one that worked. It might not have got the guy a nomination but it has brought a lot of people out of the woodwork and motivated many people to take a stand.

So in a long winded way, I'm asking the Committee maybe they should consider regrouping and talking to the members about what they want and need and then come up with a new "vision" after some objectives being met but also new twists in the saga happening too or maybe just have IOFFL stay the same way. Either way I think there should be a public debate about it here and from there ....

And before you ask, yes I am willing to help, I will devote time if its wanted. I'd like to get my kicks by creating a fuss with the USO as was discussed here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=1485388#post1485388

oscarBravo

(Speaking for myself here, and not necessarily on behalf of the committee.)

Originally posted by yellum
Like it or not guys you have also become the Telecom Consumer Affairs/ Activism group for Irish people.

Um, no. These are our objectives, and until they're met I personally don't see much point in changing the focus. If, as you say, we are perceived as a general-purpose lobby group for telecoms issues, then that's a misconception - we never set out to be such, and at the last AGM it was explicitly agreed that we wouldn't become such.

I think the current approach is generating results: if we were still lobbying to get Eircom to invest in their network, I'd be waiting years for broadband. As it is, the Knockmore project should be coming onstream very shortly, and many others will follow. Once there is a groundswell of real competition, Eircom will have no choice but to make their network function properly.

Other committee members will probably have their own perspectives.

dahamsta

Hi oscarBravo,

(Like Yellum, I don't want to be antagonistic in this thread, and to be clear, it was never my intention to be that way in the past. Things just seemed to go down that road, and I'm certainly partly to blame for that. I would, however, feel a lot better if the animosity just died and crawled behind a bush. So I'll try my damndest to be civil here, and I'll hope that those that perceive me as an adversary will do the same.)

Yes, there is a long way to go before IrelandOffline's objectives are realised, and like most others - members and not - I accept that IrelandOffline has made a difference, and appreciate the work that the group does. Yellum's point though - I'm sure he'll correct me if I've picked it up wrong - is that he believes (as do I) that IrelandOffline is in fact perceived by some as a general-purpose lobby group, and because of this misunderstanding, many people and classes of people are going under-represented when it comes to telecoms issues.

Now I've been accused in the past of trying to represent those self-same people and classes of people based on my own beliefs, so I should say that I accept that it's possible that both he and I are very wrong about this. But even working on the assumption that we are, the amount of posts we see on Boards.ie about general telecoms issues does seem to suggest that IrelandOffline members (and again, non-members alike) are having serious problems with their comms, and could well do with better representation. Fair enough, since the IrelandOffline boards were merged a lot of them aren't posted here any more, but the issues live on regardless.

Now I take your point that lobbying Eircom ain't gonna do anything about this. Lobbying Eircom is much akin to trying to nail jelly to the ceiling, and I personally, were I part of a lobby group, wouldn't waste a minute of my time with them. But lobbying on general comms issues doesn't have to be - and shouldn't be - simplisically restricted to lobbying the incumbent. There are other paths, such as piling ever more pressure on the Government to commoditise the last mile (or the "first mile", as Noel O'Flynn would have it), and not backing off for a breather when they appear to be doing something. (I'm speaking in general here, not about IrelandOffline.) And of course helping people to help themselves, as Muck and others tirelessly do here and on the BB forum.

So ultimately, I think Yellum is asking IrelandOffline if they'll take up the banner on this, or at the very least work with others to try and find a way forward. If IrelandOffline isn't willing or simply in a position to set up a working group to tackle this issue, for example, will they support another group that would? Would they redirect individual complainants to this alternative? Would they share their contacts and help with introductions? Would they endorse the representative group, should they demonstrate a capability to act effectively?

Again, I could be reading Yellum wrong here, and I'm open to correction. But if that's not what he's asking, well, I'd like to hear your commentary on my perception of it. Like Yellum, I'd be willing to put my time and resources into something like this. I already host IrelandOffline and several other community-based organisations, another one would be no trouble at all.

Thanks,
adam

oscarBravo

I don't have time for a detailed reply, Adam, but in brief outline:

I think we're in general agreement. The problem with being a general-purpose telecoms pressure group is the sheer breadth of the remit. I agree that there is probably a real requirement for such a group, but I don't think that Ireland Offline should be the group to do it. For example, something should be done about the price of mobile calls, but I think for IO to do it would be to dilute our message.

I do think that we should lend our endorsement and encouragement to such a group, and share whatever contacts and strategies we've picked up over the last three years. I would also be prepared to get involved with such a group.

On a note of caution, I think it's important that any two such groups have clearly defined roles. The last thing we need are separate lobby groups pulling in different directions while looking for the same thing. That's not necessarily an obstacle; it would just mean some dialogue in the early stages.

As I've said, other committee members will doubtless speak for themselves. I'll be in a better position to discuss this tomorrow.

yellum

Adam pretty much summed up what I was saying, although I'm not saying that IrelandOffline should be the be all and end all for anything Telecom related I do think they should consider broadening their current focus.

And yes, while you are not a general Telecoms Lobby Group you are seen as such. The demand is very much there. People have the broadband but things like service and quality are still lacking.

Damien.

Dangger

Very important points have been raised that do need discussion . Speaking from personal experience the sheer scope of the issues that Ireland Offline has attempted to tackle over the past few years have at times shaken it to its very foundation. With people able to give varying levels of committment at various times it has lead to a few individuals and at times just one or two carrying the weight for periods of time.

I think it would be prohibitively difficult to broaden the scope to encompass all of what Damien has put forward but as the issues grow there is obviously a need for representation. Pretty much every week I get a call or an email from people throughout the country hoping IOFFL can point them in a direction to help them get a decent phoneline, broadband or advise on dealing with various [cough ] operators.

However a voluntary organisation can only do so much. It can try to do more but risks letting the people it was set up to represent down and getting little done. Ireland Offline has done well in its current guise fighting for Internet access, however I feel simply expanding its scope could cripple it by overloading its volunteers.

On Adam's questions regarding a willingness of the current committee to work with others to try to find a way to move forward I think Ireland Offline could offer assistance with contacts and introductions but I can only speak for myself in this regard. Time permitting I would offer what assistance I could. But contacts and intros is less than half the battle. Ireland Offline has been extremely lucky with the individuals it has had pass through it since the beginning. Solid grind was put in an seemingly impossible tasks until bit by bit they eroded. But this took so much time. More time than we would have hoped.

Several IOFFL committee members have found themselves from time to time out of employment yet up to their eyes in IOFFL meetings and planning. 'Madness!' I hear you cry. But it's true. There has been huge passion behind IOFFL's operation and a genuine drive to succeed. The movement we have seen is a testament to that committment but nobody is saying it was easy.

vinnyfitz

If IOFFL was given an annual grant of (say €50,000) by Dermot Ahern to be a more effective comms users lobby - would that help?


My point is that I wonder whether resources would improve effectiveness? Or is this mainly about something else?

Dangger

It does come down to resources and people having to draw a line under what they can take on. A hypothetical grant may warrant other activities to be undertaken. For example stipulations may have to see IrelandOffline cross over into a more educational role. This may not be a problem in itself but a large part of our effectiveness has been our freedom to pick our own activities.

dahamsta

Thanks oscarBravo and Dangger for the considered replies.

oscarBravo, I can understand your point about IO's remit possibly getting diluted were it to go down this path, although it's obviously you and your colleagues call whether you choose to take it or not. If you don't, I'm sure there are others that would be willing and able to take up the reins on this particular front -- I know I'd like to help out to some degree, and it seems Damien would too.

I also agree with you on the suggestion that if a new group were to be convened, it would need to be carefully run in order to avoid interfering with IO or damaging the work IO has already done. I don't think role would be a problem for this group though, as it would clearly be created to deal with representation on particular issues with telcos in Ireland, rather than the more long-term remit on the wireless front IrelandOffline has taken.

In my view, the only major crossover between the two groups would be that in all likelihood this other group would need to take the DSL/USO/Pairgain issue(s) under it's wing because of IrelandOffline's decision to sideline it to a large degree and concentrate on wireless. This would certainly bear talking about before a new group was convened.

Dangger, I doubt another group would be in a position to handle all those phone calls or emails either, but one thing that could be done that might benefit both groups would be the creation of various FAQs and resources that deal with these issues centrally. Things like the pricing comparators on the IO site, for example, are fantastically useful but don't seem to fit with the tighter remit IO deals with these days. Obviously I'm not proposing that this new group just take them off IO, but if resources like this could be pooled and stored centrally, it would make things so much easier for consumers and business.

And indeed, it does take a long time to build up contacts and to find yourself in a position to be able to just phone them up and get a straight answer, but I don't think anyone's expecting an instant answer to all of our problems. If the groups could work together though, it would make things so much easier, hopefully for both groups.

I have to say, I'm rather keen on this idea. If I was less objectionable, it might have been done earlier.

adam