reclaim the tricolour

raven136

I don't know if this was previoiusly discussed here but i heard at the weekend that the Minister for Justice wants to reclaim the tricolour from republicANS.This same trick was pulled by Fianna Fail before as well.So we have the government partaking in this silly game of trying to out-republican the republican party and playing the"greencard".

So because Sinn Fein has always used the tri colour at function's,events and elections they some how have "stolen"it from the rest of the parties.Well inmy opinion this line of attack by the PD's is silly and arrogant......so they want to gain votes by playing the greencard now,so where we they waving their tri colour 5 years ago..where were they 10 years ago?oh yeah i forgot it didnt suit then then.

Fianna Fail and the PD's have some neck to try this and attack sinn fein...a shameful use of the tricolour as a propaganda weapon.At least Sinn Fein has always had the tri colour

Walter Ego

Fianna Fail election posters have traditionally had "The Republican Party" on them.

Does any body else remember a few years ago when Fianna Fail started to decrease the size of the "The Republican Party" part, until over 2 or 3 campaigns it disappeared altogether? It was brought back next election seemingly after a grassroots outcry.

Compare Ireland to the USA regarding the national flag. In the USA if you don't have a Stars and Stripes hanging up outside your house you are un-patriotic and viewed with suspicion. In Ireland if you put up a Tricolour outside you house when we are not playing soccer you will probably have your card marked by the Special Branch.

Personally I am not in favour of the Tricolour as it only emphasises differences, ie green and orange, within our nation. I would favour a return to the more ancient Golden harp on a Blue background. At the very least it would be distinctive amonst the plethora of various tricolours from other nations visible at every international event.

ReefBreak

Nobody really celebrates the Easter Rising or Irish Independence in this country, because it's been hijacked by Sinn Féin and their grubby ultra-nationalist supporters for years. Similarly, most people would be reluctant to fly the tri-colour outside their houses, because to do so would be to suggest that they were the resident Sinn Féin/IRA supporting family in the locality. That's something normal people would avoid like the plague. You can disagree with me on this if you want, but that's how it really is in Ireland at the moment. The only exception to this is during the World Cup in Rugby or Soccer.

I'm not sure I'd fully celebrate certain aspects of our history anyway (such as the certain parts of the Easter Rising or the War of Independence), but that's for another thread.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by raven136
At least Sinn Fein has always had the tri colour

The BNP in England have been using similar rhetoric for the last few years.

raven136

i'm looking out my back window and seeing as i'm a sinn fein supporter as are my family surely by your logic i should be able to see my secret army out there.Nope there not there at the moment...they must be gone for tea.

I dont agree with you...if people wanted to celebrate the easter rising then they could quite easily do this without anyhelp of sinn fein.Then again us non normal people in sinn fein would probably hijack their private celebration.

Only in this country are we afraid to remember the founders of our state.Its shameful

ReefBreak

Originally posted by raven136
i'm looking out my back window and seeing as i'm a sinn fein supporter as are my family surely by your logic i should be able to see my secret army out there.Nope there not there at the moment...they must be gone for tea.

I dont agree with you...if people wanted to celebrate the easter rising then they could quite easily do this without anyhelp of sinn fein.Then again us non normal people in sinn fein would probably hijack their private celebration.

Only in this country are we afraid to remember the founders of our state.Its shameful

By my logic, you should be able to see a secret army out your back window....? Oh dear. Oh wait, there is an army - it's not secret, they've murdered over 1500 people (of which over 800 were innocent civilians), they once kidnapped, tortured and murdered a single mother of ten kids - they're called the IRA. They're just not in your back garden at the moment.

I think most people want to celebrate Irish history. The problem is they don't because they don't want to be seen in the same light as supporters of IRA/Sinn Féin. To most people, it's a shameful tag that they refuse to be associated with. The tricolour and Irish history have been hijacked for years by militant republicans, and pretending it's any other way is false.

raven136

Hi jacked.....so they hi jacked it when those ten brave men gave their lives in the H-Blocks did they.So it was hijacked when 100,000 people turned out for bobby sands funeral was it.
Lets be honest about it...people such as yourself couldnt give atoss about irish history and using the excuse "i cant celebrate that becuse sinn fein do"is their easy escape route from not caring.

The government reinterns 10 former IRA members and calls them soldiers and the country applauds them....bobby sands is still called a terrorist!

ReefBreak

Was Booby Sands a member of the IRA? If so, then yes, he was a terrorist. He just didn't like the fact that he didn't have special status in prison, so he went on hunger strike. Well, boo hoo, himself and the rest of the hunger strikers should have thought of that before they joined a terrorist organisation that was intentionally murdering innocent civilians as a means of creating change. Were the original IRA terrorists? Well, that depends if they committed terrorist acts, or if they went out and fought like men, (rather than the cowards that plant a bomb in a bar and run away, like in the modern-day IRA).

In fact I do give a toss about Irish History, but I haven't bought the twisted, romanticised version that certain Irish Republicans have created and swallowed through the years.

raven136

you really did buy that bull **** that they teach in school didnt you.ah sure begorrah pearse and collins and all them sure they didnt kill anyone ....no Tom Barry did not bring guerilla fighting against the english.

So you believe that well then more power to you because i certainly dont

ReefBreak

Originally posted by raven136
you really did buy that bull **** that they teach in school didnt you.ah sure begorrah pearse and collins and all them sure they didnt kill anyone ....no Tom Barry did not bring guerilla fighting against the english.

So you believe that well then more power to you because i certainly dont

From one of my posts above:

I'm not sure I'd fully celebrate certain aspects of our history anyway (such as the certain parts of the Easter Rising or the War of Independence), but that's for another thread.

Unlike you, I know my history, but unlike SF/IRA I haven't conveniently forgotten the innocent people that were murdered or butchered along the way. I haven't forgotten the people that were burned alive at La Mon, or the whole families that were destroyed by the the IRA/UDA/UFF/INLA.

Mighty_Mouse

Are SF not trying to drop the slogan: "FF- The Republican Party" at the moment?

raven136

believe me dude i know my history.my great grandfather fought in tom barry's second division flying column and i have written documents which prove my point that they were "terrorists"if thats what you like to call them so dont dare try to tell me what i know and dont know.

And if you are so knowledgeable you would surely know that sinn fein/ira cannot stand the ground that groups such as the inla walk on

ReefBreak

Originally posted by raven136
believe me dude i know my history.my great grandfather fought in tom barry's second division flying column and i have written documents which prove my point that they were "terrorists"if thats what you like to call them so dont dare try to tell me what i know and dont know.

Very good. Did your great grandfather intentionally murder unarmed innocent civilians? If so, he was a terrorist, and nothing to be proud of. Did your great grandfather intentionally murder unarmed innocent civilians simply because they were protestant. If so, he was a terrorist, and nothing to be proud of. Did your great grandfather intentionally murder unarmed catholic RIC men simply because they were in RIC (as their fathers' had been before them). If so, he was a terrorist, and nothing to be proud of.

Originally posted by raven136
And if you are so knowledgeable you would surely know that sinn fein/ira cannot stand the ground that groups such as the inla walk on

What's that got to do with anything? Perhaps they hate the INLA because they take valuable drug trades away from them?

JHMEG

Personally I am not in favour of the Tricolour as it only emphasises differences,

On the contrary, to me it emphasises a noble aspiration: peace between two tribes, in one nation.

Nobody really celebrates the Easter Rising or Irish Independence in this country, because it's been hijacked by Sinn Féin and their grubby ultra-nationalist supporters for years.

Nobody really celebrates those events because we're still stuck in Civil War politicts between FF & FG. Why don't we have a decent memorial to Michael Collins yet?

Was Booby Sands a member of the IRA? If so, then yes, he was a terrorist.

One man's terrorist, another man's freedom fighter. I think a lot of people in NI would not have viewed him as a terrorist. In the South we can pass unqualified comment from the comfort and safety of our armchairs.

raven136

A terrorist is someone who has no public support for their actions and considering that sinn fein is the biggest nationalist party in the north and on the rise down here then i can safely say there is public support.
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.So by your reckoning every leader in history who fought in a war is a terrroorist so?

ReefBreak

Originally posted by raven136
A terrorist is someone who has no public support for their actions and considering that sinn fein is the biggest nationalist party in the north and on the rise down here then i can safely say there is public support.

Wrong, wrong, WRONG. A terrorist is someone that "engages in acts or an act of terrorism". Terrorism is "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." This is exactly what SF/IRA tried to do over the last 30 years. They were terrorists, murderers. They were vermin that did not deserve to call themselves Irish.

raven136

so what were the british government who santioned the killings of countless catholics for political gain...who imprisoned the guilford 4,birmingham 6,ue torture on prisoners and provided the base for the fru to develop the way it did

Samson

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Did your great grandfather intentionally murder unarmed innocent civilians? If so, he was a terrorist, and nothing to be proud of. Did your great grandfather intentionally murder unarmed innocent civilians simply because they were protestant. If so, he was a terrorist, and nothing to be proud of. Did your great grandfather intentionally murder unarmed catholic RIC men simply because they were in RIC (as their fathers' had been before them). If so, he was a terrorist, and nothing to be proud of.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
A terrorist is someone that "engages in acts or an act of terrorism". Terrorism is "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

It sounds to me that according to this theory, one should therefore also be describing the forces of the crown as terrorists. After all, there are well documented 20th century cases of the crown forces slaughtering innocents, during the War of Independence and during the more recent conflict; the behaviour of the "Tans" and Bloody Sunday being prime examples.

Crown forces shot and killed 13 innocent civilians engaged in peaceful protest on January 30, 1972, ergo the crown forces are committed an act of terrorism.

Would that be a valid point Reefbreak?

Redleslie

Looks like Reefbreak has experienced some sort of conversion to pacifism since he posted this...

What did you expect from the war? Zero civilian casualties? War is war.

From here.

ReefBreak

I never said I was a pacifist. I do recognise that wars have been fought throughout history, including on this island, and I recognise that incocent civilians will get killed. However, I do have a problem with intentionally and directly targetting innocent civilians. For this reason, I most certainly have a problem with terrorism, and the IRA/UDA/INLA/UFF.

It sounds to me that according to this theory, one should therefore also be describing the forces of the crown as terrorists. After all, there are well documented 20th century cases of the crown forces slaughtering innocents, during the War of Independence and during the more recent conflict; the behaviour of the "Tans" and Bloody Sunday being prime examples.

Crown forces shot and killed 13 innocent civilians engaged in peaceful protest on January 30, 1972, ergo the crown forces are committed an act of terrorism.

Would that be a valid point Reefbreak?

Yes that is a valid point. And if we were talking about British Army atrocities, I would be saying the same thing as if I were talking about the 'RA.

cruiserweight

It appears to me that people are using what other sides in a conflict have done to justify other wrong doings! Two wrongs do not make a right!

The purpose of learning about history is to learn from our mistakes, not to justify mistakes that are currently being made.

as for the tri-colour whoever wants to use it should use it, but only in a tasteful and respectful manner! It represents a bringing together of two communities and is a peaceful banner in that respect!

sceptre

Originally posted by cruiserweight
It appears to me that people are using what other sides in a conflict have done to justify other wrong doings! Two wrongs do not make a right!

The psychological term is projection. Justification of one set of actions based on another set of actions that the offender sees as worse as long as it suits the offender to see them as worse. Often used by people who get speeding tickets on dual carriageways and I'm always rather disappointed to see it here.

mike65

If we have to sail under a flag it should be one that belongs to those who follow democratic tenants.

Sinn Fein/IRA does not fall into that catagory.

Mike.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by mike65
If we have to sail under a flag it should be one that belongs to those who follow democratic tenants.

Sinn Fein/IRA does not fall into that catagory.

This sums up almost everything I feel about SF/IRA in the year 2004.

swiss

I'm slightly curious as to how Fianna Fáil could have 'stolen' the tricolour. If the Irish flag is seen as a cultural identity of 'Irishness', then would it not make sense for the largest political party in Ireland to use it? Unless of course Sinn Féin claim some sort of 'ownership' over the flag, in which case the only time we should see the Irish flag would be at Sinn Féin political gatherings. Should we, in this instance, sue the other political parties who would use the flag for infringement of copyright? Would this also extend to the use of the Irish flag abroad, by third party interests?

If Fianna Fáil or any other political party wants to use the tricolour, then I fail to see why they shouldn't. If they want to brand themselves in a particular image, such as Fianna Fáil being a republican party, then again I fail to see why we should stop them. Telling a political party not to use propoganda and spin is like telling them they can't try to get people to vote for them. No party is innocent of image manipulation to some extent. Thus one party accusing another of doing exactly this is disingenuous, IMO.

Now, there are a lot of arguments about the interpretation of historical events. Rather than get into all of this, might I just remind people that this is somewhat off the topic in question, although it still has some relevance since the history of the tricolour is what motivated this thread. The question I have instead is: do we want to associate the tricolour with Sinn Féin (almost) exclusively because of tenous historical connections of that party to some of the symbolism in the flag? I have already given my answer to this one.

Personally, I would go along with the opinion of Silent Death. I don't think the tricolour at present is particularly suitable, since the green seperated from the orange by a white band appears to only strengthen the concept of a division between green and orange. You could of course have the alternate viewpoint that it means that green and orange 'tribes' are united under one flag. Neither viewpoint is 'correct' or 'incorrect'. However, I like the idea of having a harp on a blue background. This symbol is unlikely to be adopted anytime soon though.

ReefBreak

Swiss, I think if you re-read the original post, you'll find that raven136 suggested that the Sinn Féin had "stolen" the tricolour, not Fianna Fáil.

Mighty_Mouse

Imagine the Domocractic and Republican parties in America fighting over who has stolen the American flag by using it at functions and rallys!!!!!!!!!!

Thats how insane this is !!

bonkey

Originally posted by swiss
Unless of course Sinn Féin claim some sort of 'ownership' over the flag, in which case the only time we should see the Irish flag would be at Sinn Féin political gatherings. Should we, in this instance, sue the other political parties who would use the flag for infringement of copyright? Would this also extend to the use of the Irish flag abroad, by third party interests?

At the risk of people reading the entirely wrong meaning into what I'm saying....

The swastika is a symbol for joy. It is a symbol for life. It has been in documented use for millennia. It has been used by civilisations ranging from the native American peoples, to the Chinese.

The Nazi's did not copyright it, did not purchase it, never (that I'm aware of) claimed ownership or exclusive rights to it.

But they did steal it, in that it is almost guaranteed to be memetically linked to Nazism when seen in the developed western world.

I defy you to be able to use it at a large public gathering in the developed western world without complaint because some people have indelibly linked it to Nazi-ism.

Now, lets look at the topic at hand in a similar light.

The point about "taking the tricolour back" from Republicans is a politely-worded suggestion that in at least some areas, the tricolour is not seen as our nation's flag, but rather as a sign of support for Republicanism. What the flag represents - its meme - has been altered to something else, by someone else, for their own purposes.

Whether or not you agree with those purposes is your business - I would hazard our MoJ has a problem with it because he doesn't agree with them - but it is fair to say that some people do not see the Irish flag and think "oh, thats the Irish flag", but rather "Republican..."

It is this identification of what the symbol represents - this meme - that our MoJ is saying has been stolen, and to a degree I think he has a point.

I do, however, also believe it is mostly an election-time ploy aimed squarely at Sinn Fein.

jc

dathi1

Although I'm not to keen on the Marxist make up of Sein Fein I do think that the Provisional IRA had the right to defend its community when the British War machine crushed the civil rights movement. I'm sensible enough to know that in the majority of cases the IRA were not out to deliberately kill civilians but just like all other paramilitary armies throughout the world legal and illegal like the SAS etc..collateral damage was inevitable. I think most grass root republicans now support Sein Fein on their Nationalist agenda and not their Leftist tendencies, for example Immigration. I have voted for Sein Fein on and off since the 80's in support of disenfranchised nationalists in the north but I'm hard pressed to give them No1 now. If a nice Right of Centre Nationalist Party that put Irish people first and gave the neo liberals a run for their money I'd go for them big time...but no such luck yet.

As for the Flag......walk around town and you'll count more Euro flags than tri colours..

ReefBreak

Originally posted by dathi1
Although I'm not to keen on the Marxist make up of Sein Fein I do think that the Provisional IRA had the right to defend its community when the British War machine crushed the civil rights movement.

The IRA never defended anybody. When the peaceful civil rights movement was ruined by the British in the late 60s, the RA were nowhere to be seen - it was then that the phrase "IRA - I Ran Away" appeared on the walls of Nationalist areas in the North. After the IRA started to grow, they still defended nobody, unless you call the act of putting bombs in pubs and towns "defending".

bonkey

Lads - can you go back up to the top of the page there and re-read the topic? The bit where it says "reclaim the tricolour" ???

This is not a question of whether or not the IRA are wrong, nor of whether or not Republicanism today or nigh-on a century ago are/were right or wrong in terms of their actions, nor of what those actions are.

It is about the Irish flag, what it represents, and what people think it should represent.

jc