Tournament Structure

Hyzepher

The poker forum has become a little predictable at the moment - used to organise home games or trips into either of the 2 card rooms. Well to change all that I want to start a discussion on the way poker tournaments are organised.

I never really liked the idea of rebuy tournaments or the way that you never really get to play short handed games unless you make the final table - a skill you need to practice if you want to win the whole thing. With this in mind I have done some extensive reading etc. to try and see what alternatives there are and whether these would be acceptable amonst the poker community.

On the topic of rebuys my stance is simple - I hate them, they are evil. Why you ask, well good question. I dislike them because it introduces higher degrees of luck into the game - the successful players are those you play ultra loose and hit their draws (knowing they can rebuy if they go broke) or the players who can afford to put more money into the tournament via multiple rebuys. Both of these ensure that the best player doesn't actually win the tournie - in fact the better player who raerly need to rebuy are at a disadvantage.

Now it could be said that card clubs like rebuy tournaments as they add to the over all pot size and this attracts players to their tournaments - however, I would argue that rebuy tournies are bad for the club a) They lower the standard of poker being played b) They go on too long and therefore reduce the profit of the club - players could be playing BJ or enter another tournie. Remember the club only takes money from the initial registration, it makes nothing for each rebuy. I would argue that players would prefer freeze-out tourneys as they rely more on skill than luck. I think this has been proven from the Fitzwilliam poll currently going on.

The second thing I think we need to address is the way the tournament numbers are reduced to fill the final table. Normally throughout the tournie every table is kept balanced with all the others by equally sharing the players amonst them - this results in players being moved. Why do this? I know the club may want to free up tables for cash games etc but normally thats because the tournie goes on too long - eliminate rebuys and that problem is solved. There are views circulating around the poker scene that are leaning towards organising tournaments on a shoot-out basis.

A shoot-out is where players remain at their table until only one player remains - they then move to another table (make up of other table winners) and so on. This way players not only get to benefit from any 'tells' or familarity they have over the others at their table but they also get to play long-handed, short-handed and heads-up. If there were 70 players on 7 tables then the final tables could consists of the 7 winners. When done right the tournament would be shorter than the current model - and in my opinion fairer. You could also award prizes based on winning the table rather than where you placed at the final table. What I mean here is that each table winner get a certain amount and then the final table winner gets the top prize. I think this would make the final table more intersting as people wouldn't be as cautious as there would be only 1 prize to play for and they would not be worried about trying to stay in the tournie just to move up 1 or 2 places on the prize ladder. Also if there were no rebuys and the same number of players per table then each player at the final table would have the same qty of chips - fairer again as at the moment one player may have played at a weak table and amassed a mountian of chips whereas another player may have been at a tougher table and not amassed as much(less rebuys etc).

None of this is new but it seems hard to change the way tournies are run. I think if we can create tournaments that are fun, fair, determined by skill, and dont take 5 hours to play then we can all benefit and I think more will get involved and the club will benefit

Hyzepher

Lafortezza

The free-entry rebuy tournaments are beneficial to the Fitz because they constantly bring in new players. Every week there's a few n00bs. Look at the amount of poker boards regulars who have gone to play in other Fitz tournaments after trying the thursday night free-for-all.
I'd guess the Fitz management know that thursdays nights doesn't make for very profitable poker, or for high-quality poker for that matter, but with the influx of new players to play on other nights it makes sense. They can't advertise elsewhere (afaik) and rely on word of mouth to bring in the new players.

I personally am beginning to dislike the thursday night setup. Its great when you're getting more experience and improving your game but the multiple rebuys mean luck is generally more important than skill, at least until the freezeout and the final table or two.

The best poker I've played there has been the monday night €110 entry freezeout. You start with lots of chips and tiny blinds and can lose several pots and still have a chance of playing good poker and regaining your chips. If you lose one big pot on a thursday, you rebuy and are back to square one. A touch too expensive for my current bankroll though

The shoot-out games sound like a good idea. They would probably work very well in a larger casino, but the Fitz has only 6/7 poker tables. As the night wears on there's usually 2-3 cash games going. Having 3 tables with 2-4 players on each would be holding up valuable table space. I'd love if they had maybe one shoot-out tournament a week, even for a trial period.

Hopefully the Fitz will consider all the suggestions in the thread at the top of the forum. €50 freezeouts, and lower stakes cash games at off-peak times will keep the club busy and will improve the games of players like us, who eventually will move up to bigger cash games and tournaments.

Krusty_Clown

Hyzepher: ...one player may have played at a weak table and amassed a mountain of chips whereas another player may have been at a tougher table and not amassed as much(

I witnessed this on my first trip to the Thursday game..
I was on the same table, from the start until the end of my night... Very few people left our table to go to other tables.. Those who arrived at our table didn't have significantly more chips than anyone else...

That is, until the end of the night.. When there were around 20 players left, a few players arrived at the table having amassed huge stacks at some of the other tables, immediately moving many of the tables players from medium stack to being short stacked..

Lafortezza

Originally posted by Krusty_Clown
When there were around 20 players left, a few players arrived at the table having amassed huge stacks at some of the other tables, immediately moving many of the tables players from medium stack to being short stacked..

Thats the luck of drawing seats, the luck of the players at your table, and especially the luck of the cards. Basically that's poker.
You just have to deal with the players you get at the table, even n00bs can amass a big stack in a short period of time.

Krusty_Clown

Lafortezza: Thats the luck of drawing seats, the luck of the players at your table, and especially the luck of the cards

But the shoot-out option removes (or at least reduces) this element of luck.. As you move to a new table, every players starts out equal.. I could see it being a pain though, having beaten off every player at your table, to have to wait on everyone else to do likewise, before the next tables can be set-up..

quozl

Originally posted by Krusty_Clown
But the shoot-out option removes (or at least reduces) this element of luck..

You sure it wouldn't make things worse? All you get are the winners of the 7 tables, not the 7 best players. For all you know the 7 best players are together on table 1. This is an extreme example of course, but you're guaranteed not to have the top 7 players distributed 1 per table unless you seed things. So straight off you're ensuring some of your best players cannot make it to the final table.

I know you won't get the 7 best players as it is now, but it strikes me that you'd be likely to get closer to it.

Greg

Krusty_Clown

Point taken... However, in either tournament environment, the very best players may be assembled at a single table, leaving either the superior player (or the lucky noob (hopefully me!)) with the big stack of chips in front of them...

By offering the experienced Poker players the opportunity to re-buy, you are also offering the noobs opportunities to re-buy.. So they can continue filling those long-shot inside straights..

quozl

Originally posted by Krusty_Clown
By offering the experienced Poker players the opportunity to re-buy, you are also offering the noobs opportunities to re-buy.. So they can continue filling those long-shot inside straights..

I was only comparing the shootout vs the normal moving ppl between tables method.

I agree about rebuys, they encourage poor play I think. But I don't believe they help newbies as much as some people think. Newbies rebuy then pass those chips onto better players who build larger and larger stacks. Then when the newbie rebuys yet again he's ridiculously short stacked and basically ****ed.

I'd much rather pure freezeout tournaments myself.

Greg

Hyzepher

Originally posted by lafortezza
The free-entry rebuy tournaments are beneficial to the Fitz because they constantly bring in new players. Every week there's a few n00bs. Look at the amount of poker boards regulars who have gone to play in other Fitz tournaments after trying the thursday night free-for-all.

Point taken but thats more to do with the fact that the tournie is free and an easy way of introducing new players to the game. The Thursday night game is also just a feeder to the big game at the end of the week, so rebuys are probably a necessity.

Hyzepher

Davey Devil

I don't like the re-buys either - but they are essential on Thursday's usually their are 4-5 tickets to be one. Replace this with a €10 entry and there will only be 2 tickets to be won. As for the other tournaments the Fitz could introduce a number of Freeze-outs on a trial period at different levels. Replace one of the current tourney's each week with a freez-out and let the punters decide which they prefer.

As for a shoot-out style tournie - I'm not in favour of this format. I wouldn't like to sit down at a table of 10 knowing I have to beat these 9 other players to get to the final table. I prefer the current format and to be honest could never imagine the Fitz adopting a shoot-out format.

mewso

First off I like the suggestions and I agree that Rebuys are annoying.
Shootouts sound good but they are similar to single table tournament which don't suit real casinos, because of lack of space, as opposed to online.
I think it would be cool if you could have €20 or €50 single table tourneys on the board in the fitz that you could sign up for like the cash players.

DeVore

Personally I'm beginning to favour the 20 in, limited topups game on Wednesday/Sunday as you get a smaller, better field (3-4 tables) and there's little if any of the All-In on 7,8s crap. The prize is cash too so you dont end up just having to go to the big game and getting eaten , you can pocket the cash or buy a ticket the choice is yours.
3 rebuys (or 2 and a topup) make it good for the tighter, better players as the rebuys are 1500, 2000 and 2,500 each while the topup is 3,000 (afaicr).

DeV.

Davey Devil

It's 2500 for the top-up - was playing last night. I agree it's a good little tourney. I was suprised how tight the play was - thought you would need to spend the full 80 to have a chance. Ended up paying just the entry and then the top-up.

Damn Norman got the better of me again. Down to the last 14 - I raise with A,8 suited Norman goes over the top all-in (had less chips than me). Earlier on he did the same thing to me and I passed with A,Q. This time I had enough of his bullying tactics so I called - he had 7,5 suited. 8 comes from me on the flop but Norman hits a diamond for a flush on the river to hammer my stack. No way back from there.

This game is really kicking me in the teeth at the moment but I'll keep coming back for more. On a seperate point did anyone see Roy Brindley on Poker Million at the weekend. What a tosser.:rolleyes:

Lafortezza

Originally posted by Davey Devil
Damn Norman got the better of me again. Down to the last 14 - I raise with A,8 suited Norman goes over the top all-in (had less chips than me). Earlier on he did the same thing to me and I passed with A,Q. This time I had enough of his bullying tactics so I called - he had 7,5 suited. 8 comes from me on the flop but Norman hits a diamond for a flush on the river to hammer my stack. No way back from there.

You got the karma that was intended for me,
I put Norman out by calling his all-in on AK, with J8 clubs. I flushed the river to put him out of the monday €100 freezeout.
When he left the table not looking too happy one or two of the other players asked why I called his all-in with J8 suited, I just said that I didn't believe him.
I was tempted to say "I had the 4th nut flush draw preflop...."

Davey Devil

I'm guessing you didn't get on too well in the tourney if you were calling all in's with that sh!te. How's many players were in that tourney out of interest.

Lafortezza

I came third.

about 3 fulls tables give or take the latecomers.

Davey Devil

I'm guessing the J,8 was the only crazy move of the night then.

Lafortezza

I got decent cards at the right times, and some nice flops that I could bet out on.
Its the best poker night in the Fitz as far as I'm concerned. If you can afford the €110 buyin then go for it. I learned a huge amount just at the first table. Everyone plays "properly" and you have a nice big stack to start out with, blinds are a pittance.