APTN pictures of attack on Foreign civilians in Iraq

stuartfanning

Site below has the uncensored Associated Press Television News coverage of the attack on Foreign civilians in Iraq today. You can compare these to what we see on mainstream newscasts

**Beware graphic pictures**

http://www.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=382471

click on Brutal Attack

Exit

I'm not going to click on that link because I'd imagine the pictures are ****ing disgusting.

What surprises me though is the lack of interest in these incidents from politics posters here. I bet if the Americans did this, there'd be complete outrage from everyone here. Hell there's a huge thread complaining about US special agents possibly being allowed to kill in Ireland if deemed necessary, and not one post on these actual killings and barbaric acts.

(If there are actually posts on this, then I take it back, but I couldn't find anything on the first page of the forum)

bonkey

Originally posted by Exit
I bet if the Americans did this, there'd be complete outrage from everyone here.

Yes, there would. The American army is supposed to be trained, disciplined, considerate of humanitarian issues relevant to whatever situation they are in, etc. etc. etc.

For them to act in such a barbarous manner would be - quite literally - unthinkable.

To see it in the form that it did occur in, however, is not unthinkable. Atrocious, yes, but unthinkable? Something similar has happened before - in Mogadishu for example - and will almost unquestionably happen again. Its tragic. Its saddening. Its worrying. Its sick.

But I'm still trying to figure out a bit more of what I think other than "thats a tragedy, and barbaric" before I pass "real" comment. I'd like to see if I can get a bit more informed about who did this and why this happened. It was - from what I can see, at least - not just another attack on US assets in Iraq by resistance.

Maybe I'm doing you a disservice, but your outrage seems to be more focussed on those who haven't commented on the act than on those who perpetrated it. With that in mind - the outrage itself would seem a bit hollow. You seem more outraged that people haven't been outraged by it happening than of the fact that it happened at all.

jc

woody

My Younger Brothers Best Friend is in Southern Bagdhad in the US Marines...

He said it is turning into Vietnam, One point he did make if they pull out it will go mad and if they stay it will go mad...

All I can say is God Help the Families of the Dead Men, it is one thing being shot or blown up but mutalated is horrific by any humans standards no-one deserves that..

More are going to die before it is going to get better:(

Originally posted by Exit

What surprises me though is the lack of interest in these incidents from politics posters here. I bet if the Americans did this, there'd be complete outrage from everyone here.

Well as this thread only went up last night, late, it's a tad early still to guage whether it will become 3 or 4 pages long.


Armies of countries have standards or at least can be held accountable, unknowns cannot, that has always been the way.
It is interesting that when you take away rigid horrid regimes all hell breaks loose in the sense that those doing the all hell can get away with it.
It's possible of course that those with a significant input to creating the hell are sympathisers to the old Regime now combined with alQu'eda etc.
Nothing has changed really, except the Barbarity is focused on foreigners and is therefore more visible.

It looks like a lesson in learning to leave countries like this alone to be honest imho.
Let the barberous regimes stay in power to be eventually dealt with by their own people if at all, as long as they are not impacting on our own western freedoms.
If they are not dealt with by their own people thats something they themselves have to live with.

Victor

I think it was wrong, it is bad enough to kill someone, but then to burn and smash the bodies is wrong and only incites further hatred. The only time I have ever seen photos quite like what I saw on one of today's papers were private photos from an Irish American from the 1991 war where invariably armoured vehicles caught fire immolating their dying, but still alive passengers.

That the events of yesterday occurred is wrong, but to not expect them is perhaps naive.

Originally posted by woody
My Younger Brothers Best Friend is in Southern Bagdhad in the US Marines...

Likewise I have a friend in East Baghdad as a second lieutenant (by rank, statistically the most likely to be killed). He was to be posted to West Baghdad but "got lucky".

Originally posted by woody
mutalated

I think the term is desecrated, which is probably the worst thing someone can do other than to a living person.

woody

Just looked at the front page of the Irish Independant it is Horrific..


I have seen a lot of horrific things while in the Army but that is "cannot describe in words".

Al Jazzerra the Arab News Channel Yesterday as much as hearlded the persons who did it as said that Occupation forces where to expect more...or the same, last night at 2100...

We all wonder why then people who see this from the West, get there hearts filled with Anger at why can this be done but if there is a Accident or Similar done by Allied forces it would have the UN and every organisation in the world with some clouth looking for investigation and answers...To be straight Up-roar as Poor Yanks are regarded as numbers and it is now a daily thing to hear on the News, a US Solider killed in Baghdad etc...

Those people most likely will not be caught and will do this again...
Yes the Allies invaded and removed a Despot but I myself think their tatics where wrong , well the Yanks more so the Brits seem to have more experience in Urban WarFare and FIBUA (Fighting in Built Up Areas)...Not to be harping on..But maybe Israeli style tatics may work to restore Law and Order as Conventional troops such as Marines and Rangers are not suited...It is a Special Forces War...And I dont think the General Iraqi Population want there hearts and Minds won, I dont think they know what they want...It is great for Al Qadia as they are a testing ground for all there tatics,weapons and even training there men...

Again I bow my head in silence to the men who died yesterday and all service men from the Allied Forces in Iraq.

sovtek

Originally posted by stuartfanning
Site below has the uncensored Associated Press Television News coverage of the attack on Foreign civilians in Iraq today.

"Foreign civilians".
A great euphemism for M-E-R-C-E-N-A-R-Y.

Hairy Homer

Of course it was a barbaric deranged thing to do.

Still doesn't make Bush and Blair's war right.

woody

Sovtek...Have a little respect as you would be the first person to be screaming if that was a lovely Iraqi being strung up..

If that was your family or friends you would be horrified... Mercenary I think not there is no need for them there, they were civilian contractors ... No human deserves that...

Is it for you one rule for Arabs and another for everyone else...

sovtek

Originally posted by woody
Just looked at the front page of the Irish Independant it is Horrific..


I have seen a lot of horrific things while in the Army but that is "cannot describe in words".

I don't really find it any more horrific than the Apache shredding what might very well have been farmers a few months ago.
Is it brutal and horrific...yes....but no more so than when it's done to Iraqis IMHO.

Al Jazzerra the Arab News Channel Yesterday as much as hearlded the persons who did it as said that Occupation forces where to expect more...or the same, last night at 2100...

Maybe because they've also seen what the US military has done to any number of civilians in Iraq so far.
Last I heard it was happening 5-15 times a day.
That's something you DO see on Al Jeezera as opposed to Al Hurra.
You also see Fox and CNN heralding killing by the US military.

We all wonder why then people who see this from the West, get there hearts filled with Anger at why can this be done but if there is a Accident or Similar done by Allied forces it would have the UN and every organisation in the world with some clouth looking for investigation and answers...

If the information in that report is currect then they were with the Department of Defense as well as possible mercenaries. They are then legitimate targets. Now if say they were all buried alive after surrendering, then yes the UN and every org would be calling for investigations.

To be straight Up-roar as Poor Yanks are regarded as numbers and it is now a daily thing to hear on the News, a US Solider killed in Baghdad etc...

Even though it's happening everyday it isn't reported everyday. It was Brent Scowcroft (and I think the likes of Rumsfeld have said similar things) that the NUMBER of soldiers killled in Iraq is really low.
"Supporting our troops" (nevermind the cuts Bush and friends have put through for vets.) indeed!!!!!!

Those people most likely will not be caught and will do this again...

And what does that suggest to you?

But maybe Israeli style tatics may work to restore Law and Order as Conventional troops such as Marines and Rangers are not suited...It is a Special Forces War...

Those Israeli tactics are working so well for the IDF, not to mention the average Israeli, now aren't they. Oh and US soldiers are using their tactics already.

And I dont think the General Iraqi Population want there hearts and Minds won, I dont think they know what they want...

Ummmm that's exactly the hearts and minds they should be winning. If they aren't then what must that mean?

It is great for Al Qadia as they are a testing ground for all there tatics,weapons and even training there men...

Yes America and the world are more secure now. Thanks Jorge!

Again I bow my head in silence to the men who died yesterday and all service men from the Allied Forces in Iraq.

Take away the mercenaries and add all the Iraqi civilians/service men then I'll be right there with ya.

Redleslie

Originally posted by woody
Sovtek...Have a little respect as you would be the first person to be screaming if that was a lovely Iraqi being strung up..

If that was your family or friends you would be horrified... Mercenary I think not there is no need for them there, they were civilian contractors ... No human deserves that...

Is it for you one rule for Arabs and another for everyone else...

They belonged to Blackwater Security Consulting. "Our mission is to provide the client with veteran military, intelligence and law enforcement professionals..."

On their website, they have some jobs going at the moment. Here's one:

Tier 1. Description: An operator with requirement-specific expertise in the skill sets identified below. Minimum eight-years experience in either SOCCOM/JSOC/Intelligence field(s). Has a current DoD/DoE/DoS clearance or the ability to pass requirements for a SECRET clearance. Retired or released from active duty within the last twenty-four months, or has maintained their skills sets through other independent contracting opportunities.

Hostage Rescue
Close Quarter Battle
Structure Penetration
Intelligence Collection
Explosive Ordnance Disposal
Forward Observer/Call-for-Fire
Reconnaissance and Surveillance
Sniper/Counter-Sniper Operations
Visit, Board, Search and Seizure Operations
Counter-narcotics/Counterterrorist Operations
Small Unit Tactics
Raid Conduct and Training
Medic
Communications

That'd be an awful strange resume for any regular civilian contractor to have.

halkar

Maybe they realise why Saddam was so cruel. No credit to him and good that he is of the power but democracy or whatever US and alies think is not a thing for Iraq. Not yet anyway. So many ethcnic groups and majority Shiite (spelling?) hardcore muslims with Saddam supporter Sunnis in the middle, Kurdish on the north, and open borders to Al-caida, I am not sure how they will keep the country in one piece. No one appears to be agreeing on anything and for the people in Iraq being soldier or civilian anyone foreign are the same. Time will tell I guess.

sovtek

Originally posted by woody
Sovtek...Have a little respect as you would be the first person to be screaming if that was a lovely Iraqi being strung up..

No lovely Iraqi's have ever attacked America or Americans in general.
Doesn't mean I value American lives any more or any less though.

If that was your family or friends you would be horrified...

Yes I would. I'd also be horrified if they worked for the Deparment of "Defense".

Mercenary I think not there is no need for them there, they were civilian contractors ... No human deserves that...

http://counterpunch.org/fisk03292004.html

Deserves what? To be shot and killed? True...
But if you pick up a gun and walk into someones country to use it..........

Is it for you one rule for Arabs and another for everyone else... [/B]

I'd ask you the same question. Last I checked no Arabs have invaded my country.

Originally posted by sovtek

Is it brutal and horrific...yes....but no more so than when it's done to Iraqis IMHO.

But at least actions authorised by a U.S government are eventually subject to the scrutiny of a vote.
These guys in Iraq have no mandate to carry out their activities and aren't ultimately subject to the same rules.
Saying that their country was invaded is not a justification in my eyes.
It's not in Northern Ireland and it's not in Iraq.

They are then legitimate targets.

Similarally if you are prepared to say that about, Iraqi attacks like this barbarous one without knowing the full story or having been there then you must apply the same logic to the U.S led occupying force.

woody

One thing I know, Iraq is not going to peace in the next decade methinks...

George Bush, I dont agree with a lot of what he does but he does have some good points but not many.. Tony Blair to be honest, he is the better of the two although he could tend to his own country first and maybe Iraq Secondly...

As regards those men being Merc's there is a fine line between the likes of Military specialists and the likes of executive outcomes...

As for Iraqi civilians, when they die they die like us but to be honest and being straight I feel more for the Service men as being former army, everyone out on the ground is a potential enemy including children so i cannot support them nor mourn for them...

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by woody
As for Iraqi civilians, when they die they die like us but to be honest and being straight I feel more for the Service men as being former army, everyone out on the ground is a potential enemy including children so i cannot support them nor mourn for them...

So killing of civilians in a country that has been invaded and occupied, for no apparent reasons other than purely economic ones, is ok once none of the invaders/occupiers die?

woody

That is not what I am saying, what I am saying is and being Biased... I dont feel for them I do for Servicemen...Yes it is Biased....

And the reason for the Invasion is not a question here, weither it is right or wrong..I just relate and have more sympathy for the average Grunt on the Ground..

comet

Having seen The Passion of the Christ recently, it brought home mans inhumanity to man. This video footage shows graphically without any Hollywood the evil that men do. There isn't much you can say just hope that Iraq can have peace soon and that people there can live normal lives, the world is a very dangerous place these days.

Havelock

Yes, its terrible, that these things where done to the bodies of the dead. But

A) It is war, this sort of thing happens in war, the invader is killed and people rejoice.

You can hardly say there is no reason for the Iraqi public not to have great hatered for the American's. Rember American sancions meant you couldn't get basic medical supplies into Iraq since first Persian Gulf war. Millions of innocent Iraqis where killed by this alone, not to mention indistriminate airstrikes on "military targets" and terrible blunders by the US Amry like the accidential straffing of school bus full of children etc. The is alot of hatered in Iraq for the American army.

C) If the contractors where Mercinaries, what were they doing there. Fighting? Ergo they are ligitmate targets in war.

gandalf

Horrific!!! No matter what those mens jobs were that was a horrible way to die and to see them dragged through the streets like that was a disgusting image.

The more frightening thing is the reaction of the general public there to these scenes. Its worrying that they seemed to revel in this so much. I think the US & UK are in for a very long and brutal haul in Iraq and its the poor troops, a majority of who are only there to try and get a free education afterwards because they cannot afford it who are paying the ultimate price with their blood.

Gandalf.

spanner

Originally posted by Havelock
Yes, its terrible, that these things where done to the bodies of the dead. But

A) It is war, this sort of thing happens in war, the invader is killed and people rejoice.

You can hardly say there is no reason for the Iraqi public not to have great hatered for the American's. Rember American sancions meant you couldn't get basic medical supplies into Iraq since first Persian Gulf war. Millions of innocent Iraqis where killed by this alone, not to mention indistriminate airstrikes on "military targets" and terrible blunders by the US Amry like the accidential straffing of school bus full of children etc. The is alot of hatered in Iraq for the American army.

C) If the contractors where Mercinaries, what were they doing there. Fighting? Ergo they are ligitmate targets in war.

i really cant agree with this anymore. i agree the war was not right and that america really had no right invading and understand why many countries in the arab world hate them. but whats done is done and there is no changing it. it seems to me iraqis are putting more effort into fighting americans than trying and rebuild their country. lets face it the americans cant wait to get out of there. all they want is a government in iraq which keeps supplying cheap oil to the west and doesnt give them to much trouble, like kuwait and as everyone knows kuwait has done well from this.
i posted a thread not too long ago can iraq support democracy well the answer is no its obvious they are still to bitter and twisted from sadam and the american-iranian wars to try build a future for themselves

sovtek

Originally posted by spanner
it seems to me iraqis are putting more effort into fighting americans than trying and rebuild their country.

I guess that's why they get pissed when all their potential jobs are contracted out to KBR.
Maybe that's a little bit of the ol' blame the victim?

Rock Climber

Originally posted by sovtek
I guess that's why they get pissed when all their potential jobs are contracted out to KBR.
Maybe that's a little bit of the ol' blame the victim?

I hope your not saying something similar there to saying in our case that we the Irish should bomb the states or the Eastern European countries for closing down factories here and opening up there

Commerce will be commerce, but theres no reason to blow people up over it.
That goes for the americans too, if it was the oil they were after.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by spanner
it seems to me iraqis are putting more effort into fighting americans than trying and rebuild their country.

Well seeing as it wasn't the Iraqi people themselves that bombed the hell out of everything in the first place, you can probably see why they're not too happy.

Exit

Originally posted by bonkey

Maybe I'm doing you a disservice, but your outrage seems to be more focussed on those who haven't commented on the act than on those who perpetrated it. With that in mind - the outrage itself would seem a bit hollow. You seem more outraged that people haven't been outraged by it happening than of the fact that it happened at all.

Not true. If you go back to my original post, you'll find that I used words such as "****ing disgusting" and "barbaric" to describe the killings, and "surprised" to describe the lack of outrage here. I know which words I'd view as stronger. Anyway, those words were an understatement to how I felt about seeing even the blurred images on the news, and just because I didn't put them in a post, it doesn't mean I didn't feel them.

Yes, it is something that wasn't unexpected to happen in these situations, but when it does happen, it's a shocking indictment of humanity.

My earlier analogy ("I bet if the Americans did this, there'd be complete outrage from everyone here) was poorly argued on my part. Of course the Americans would never resort to this (I hope! Nobody would have expected them to commit the My Lai [sp?] masascre either) but again I was surprised at the lack of any discussion on the issue. These acts are infinitely worse than any American killing of the same number of Iraqis, whether they be military targets or civilians. It's just humanity at it's absolute lowest.

Memnoch

I guess I'm getting desensitised to all the violence out there? Maybe that or after seeing xxxxxxx iraqi's killed for no reason other than more power and money for bush in america's "war OF terror" I just couldn't conjour up any sympathy for those people....

after thinking about it I came to the following conclusion...

1) Either these people are "civillian" contractors. These belong to companies that heavily invested in Dubya and put him in power. It is partly on their behalf that Bush has waged this war and destroyed iraqi infrastructure so it can hand out fat contracts to "friendly" (with the bush administration) american companies from Iraqi money spent by a puppet government installed by the americans. In this case it would seem to me that these people are atleast tacitly involved in the exploitation of Iraq for their own personal financial gain. This has caused the death of countless Iraqi civillians......They deserved death...

2) They were merceneries, dogs of war, hired for whatever purpose. As has been reported in "The Independant" they were carrying weapons. In which case they were combatants and combatants tend to die in wars.. so no sympathy there either.

the thing however that makes me think the most about this recent event is the reaction of the local populace to the killings. It is this that shows us that the people of Iraq do not view the American's as liberators or benefactors. It is their in built anger and resentment of the plunder and pillage that the american's have wrecked on their country. At least that is what their reaction seems to me to be. As the resistance grows stronger and wider, how much longer will people continue to trumpet their lines that the majority of attacks are by people loyal to the "old" regime and by Al-queda. Even US. troops admit that most of these attacks are actually from resistance fighters.

Lets look at what the US did to their country???

1) bombing of the water treatment plants during and after the gulf war (strategic military targets) that resulted in endemic diseases running rampant throughout Iraq, affecting mostly children.
2) Sanctions that worsened the effect of the bombs resulting in well over half a million Iraqi deaths.
3) A hostile invasion and the destruction of a large amount of Iraqi infrastructure.
4) Murder of countless civillians as "casualties of war" Atleast 10,000 killed estimated over 6 months ago.
5) Replacing the dictator saddam hussain with a "puppet" governemnt that is not interested any more than saddam was in the welfare of the Iraqi people, a governemnt kept in power and control by oppression of Iraqi people by the US armed forces.
6) Shutting down of newspapers that speak out against the American Invasion.
7) Several warcrimes committed by U.S. and British troops that go unmentioned in the mainstream media, for which they will never be prosecuted.

Now compare this to the incident we are talking about...

the killing, and mutilation of 4 American "contractors" by Iraqi's and tell me...

which of the two lists is the more horrific?

So in summary?

The people of Iraq are resisting an invasion, the pillage and plunder of their land. The american's fought a war of profit with an aim not just of removing saddam but of installing a puppet government to allow them to profit. In short to enslave the Iraqi people. The Iraqi people are rightfully fighting the enslavement with all their courage and my heart goes out to them. For any American that dies in Iraq, I have no sympathy (except journalists and people on a mission of mercy).

Memnoch

Originally posted by Earthman
But at least actions authorised by a U.S government are eventually subject to the scrutiny of a vote.
These guys in Iraq have no mandate to carry out their activities and aren't ultimately subject to the same rules.
Saying that their country was invaded is not a justification in my eyes.
It's not in Northern Ireland and it's not in Iraq.


Similarally if you are prepared to say that about, Iraqi attacks like this barbarous one without knowing the full story or having been there then you must apply the same logic to the U.S led occupying force.

The Iraqi's do have a mandate to carry out their activities. The mandate has been given to them by the U.S.'s illegal invasion and occupation of their country along with the murder of countless Iraqi civillians. This in my view gives the Iraqi's the right to do anything to defend and free their land from invaders that are looking to do nothing more than exploit...

and please DO NOT... DO NOT say that the American's were freeing Iraq of a brutal dictator.

As long as Saddam was playing along with their game, the American's were more than happy to have him in power. They supplied him with weapons, and weapons of mass destrcution, they taught him how to use them, and helped him use them. Hell they defended him on American News stations (Rice and Powell) as recently as january and june of 2001. So saying that the american's did this to get rid of a brutal regime is the biggest piece of hypocritical garbage i've ever heard, which makes me sick to the core.

woody

Those Iraqi's are Barbarians and would do the same to a Peace Keeping Force of the UN.

Which would you rather Sadam and Total Oppresion and Millions of Kurds and Sh'ites dying or Americans...Me the later...

Why were they armed to protect themselves....So a Safari in the Kruger National Park has weapons are they combatants...

War Crimes, let me see, the majority of this so called crimes are unproven anti-Ally propaganda. And I certain dont see any real evidence...


Those men who died had families, I myself now what it is like to have a loved one die in a foriegn country...

So they are Merc's or Dogs of War....If they are why should'nt they be there if they help defeat the enemy..

Those People who did that yesterday they should be damned to hell as that is the face of evil....WOULD you live with these people in or out of War...Imagine what they would do with you if you were a aid worker...remember they blew up the Red Cross...


Iraq should be split into three.... The Kurdish Sector and an Independant Kurdish State..The Central Sector for the Sunni's and the Southern Sector for the Sh'ites...

And all controlled like Berlin or West Germany in the Cold War...


Saddam had plenty of money to feed and provide for his people and so did the Baath Party Members...

The Iraqi peole the majority of still are very twisted and Barbaric and maybe need a little education in Civilisation and democracy, as otherwise the likes of the Taelban will take over and make the country a torn in the foot of the west...

I have no Sympathy for the Majority of Iraqi people as they dont need to fight, they could have had there country rebuilt by now and be living in peace and slowly having the Yanks withdrawing...Resistance no Murdering Yes.... They are cowards not gureilla's they bomb their own kill children....

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by woody
The Iraqi peole the majority of still are very twisted and Barbaric and maybe need a little education in Civilisation and democracy, as otherwise the likes of the Taelban will take over and make the country a torn in the foot of the west...

Does this education involve the people being bombed/shot into submission?
Also, the Taleban were not a thorn in anyone's side until after Sept. 11th.
The West/US were happy to let them do what they wanted to their own people as long as they kept the drug trade under control.
Do you put any value on non-Western life out of interest?

Redleslie

What I was wondering was whether the "operation", to use military parlance, was spontaneous or planned. It could be a tactic designed to rattle the US troops and *cough* civilian contractors psychologically. Morale is already rock bottom according to reports I've read.