APTN pictures of attack on Foreign civilians in Iraq

pork99

Originally posted by sovtek


CIA helped him to power then I would have spoke out against giving such a person military aid and WMD's.

I don't know how well up you are on identifying military equipment but every tank, rocket, military aircraft, personal weapon I saw in use (on the TV & other news media) by Saddam's forces was of Soviet or Communist Chinese origin.

e.g. Soviet T-72 tanks, BMP-1 & BTR-60 APCs, Scud rocket launchers, AK-47 rifles, RPG-7 anti-tank rockets, MIG-29 fighter jets, only to mention a few. The list could go on and on.

The only exception I can find are some French and South African 155mm howitzers

So there

(Mod might want to move this to some military trainspotters thread)

bonkey

Originally posted by pork99
I don't know how well up you are on identifying military equipment but ...

Its pretty much an uncontested historical fact that that CIA were involved with Saddam at a relatively early stage in his career.

It is also a fact that the US did assist and supply Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war, up to and including chemical weapon precursors and manufacturing equipment.

So regardless of what hardware you've identified, what Sovtek has said is pretty much accurate.

pork99

I'm not saying the US is blameless just that no one seems to point a finger at the Soviets or the PRC. They are/were up to the same games as the US

halkar

maybe US didn't want to loose Iraqi oil to Soviets, if the sanctions were lifted at some point in Saddams dictatorship or who ever comes after him, I don't think Iraqi would want to trade with US. Even now if shias takes over the power Iraqis relations with US will not be sweet for long time to come.
It is funny to hear everyday what is going on Iraq but we hardly get to hear about the Oil being stolen from Iraq by Americans, pipelines are very much protected and while people getting killed everyday US is sucking the oil behind all this. I don't have any resources to back this up but I do beleive this is the case.

Mercury_Tilt you forgot the out of date bombs that US sent over to Iraqi homes in the conflict which was shown on the documentary on Network 2 few weeks ago. Now Bush admin have a nice little dump where they can dispose their old arsenal too.

vorbis

Originally posted by halkar
I don't have any resources to back this up but I do beleive this is the case.

hilarious
Nice to know you present perfectly reasoned factual arguments.

sovtek

Originally posted by pork99
I'm not saying the US is blameless just that no one seems to point a finger at the Soviets or the PRC.

Because, unlike America, not one of them invaded Iraq.

halkar

Originally posted by vorbis
hilarious
Nice to know you present perfectly reasoned factual arguments.

I can give you resources but you can not read them and I will not translate for you It is far from being factual. Tell me when did you hear about what is happening to Iraqi oil last time? Not all of those Foreign Civilians are there only to build Iraq. As far as I know the Iraqi pipes through Turkey are open and weeeeell protected. Better than ordinary Iraqi people are.

Vader

daveirl: I was waatching prime time.

pork99:The CIA was deeply involved with saddam, the US armed and trained the Iraqi army for a long time, none of this was unusual, the US prefers to do business with dictators and has armed most of the dictators of the last century.
You're right though on one point, nearly every body supported Saddam, he was outside

halkar: Thats what I never understood about the Iraq conflict, how did americas oil get under the iraqi sand*
Who the iraqis wanted to sell their oil to was and is none of the US' business.


vorbis: The pipelines have been signed over and the Iraqi government that comes into power in june wont be able to change it. A lot of pipe lines do go through Turkey, strange that such a brutal regime happens to be so popular

Vader

daveirl: I was waatching prime time.

pork99:The CIA was deeply involved with saddam, the US armed and trained the Iraqi army for a long time, none of this was unusual, the US prefers to do business with dictators and has armed most of the dictators of the last century.
You're right though on one point, nearly every body supported Saddam, he was outside OPEC and considered a moderate (ie not a muslum fanatic). There is some story about Ireland and beef exports around the Iran conflict but I cant remember it, anybody help me out?

halkar: Thats what I never understood about the Iraq conflict, how did americas oil get under the iraqi sand*
Who the iraqis wanted to sell their oil to was and is none of the US' business.


vorbis: The pipelines have been signed over and the Iraqi government that comes into power in june wont be able to change it. A lot of pipe lines do go through Turkey, strange that such a brutal regime happens to be so popular

Victor

Originally posted by Vader
There is some story about Ireland and beef exports around the Iran conflict but I cant remember it, anybody help me out?

The government (export credit) insured exports by various beef companies in case Iraq didn't pay. That insurance was subsequently cancelled.

Aer Lingus subisdiary Cara ran a hospital in Baghdad up to 1990. It suffered from a near miss during the bombing last year.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by pork99
I don't know how well up you are on identifying military equipment but every tank, rocket, military aircraft, personal weapon I saw in use (on the TV & other news media) by Saddam's forces was of Soviet or Communist Chinese origin.

e.g. Soviet T-72 tanks, BMP-1 & BTR-60 APCs, Scud rocket launchers, AK-47 rifles, RPG-7 anti-tank rockets, MIG-29 fighter jets, only to mention a few. The list could go on and on.

The only exception I can find are some French and South African 155mm howitzers

So there

(Mod might want to move this to some military trainspotters thread)

Thats because its cheaper and easier to maintain than most western gear. Also you can get it a lot easier from a whole load of places. There has been sanctions going on for quite a bit you know.

halkar

Originally posted by Vader
daveirl: ....
halkar: Thats what I never understood about the Iraq conflict, how did americas oil get under the iraqi sand*
Who the iraqis wanted to sell their oil to was and is none of the US' business.


vorbis: The pipelines have been signed over and the Iraqi government that comes into power in june wont be able to change it. A lot of pipe lines do go through Turkey, strange that such a brutal regime happens to be so popular

Pipes were sabotaged and closed for a while and they reopened. You have seen how US soldiers were protecting the Iraqi oil minister where the hospitals and rest of the government building were being burned also the oil fields are protected too. I doubt Iraqi people will do anything to oil fields though as they far more to worry about at the moment. If who the Iraqis wants to sell their oil to was none of US bussiness I don't think US would be in this mess now. That is my opinion

pork99

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Thats because its cheaper and easier to maintain than most western gear. Also you can get it a lot easier from a whole load of places. There has been sanctions going on for quite a bit you know.

All supplied pre 1991

In fact what I have listed was used to fight the Iranians in the 1980-88 war

pork99

Originally posted by Vader
the US armed and trained the Iraqi army for a long time,

Its known that the CIA shared intelligence with them and the US government gave other support but what did they arm them with?

Perhaps you are suggesting they ordered the stuff from the USSR and PRC and picked up the tab? They had no American weapons systems.

monument

Originally posted by pork99
quote:

---

Originally posted by Vader
the US armed and trained the Iraqi army for a long time,

---

Its known that the CIA shared intelligence with them and the US government gave other support but what did they arm them with?

Perhaps you are suggesting they ordered the stuff from the USSR and PRC and picked up the tab? They had no American weapons systems.

I armed my friend with a chocolate bar and a bottled soft drink.

Saying this I'm not suggesting how I armed my friend with supplies, nor what make of supplies, I'm just saying I did it.

Did he say any thing about American weapons systems?

halkar

Vorbis, Here is a link from BBC about the oil being piped out of Iraq, they claim it to be 1.8m barrels a day :rolleyes: So the blood and oil runs at the same time. I am guessing that majority of this are coming from the North Iraq where US friendly Kurdish are. I fear for the Kurds though as with recent events of both shias and sunnis uprising agints US and Kurdish being the biggest supporters of the US fights can move to the northern regions too.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

halkar

Originally posted by daveirl
But there was probably more oil being pumped out before the war under the oil for food program. If there was no oil being pumped out there would be even less money available for reconstruction and surely that wouldn't be a good thing.

If you read the link carefully, you will see that it says:
"Oil exports up to 1.8m barrels a day, against 2m pre-war " 1.8m against 2m pre-war. So their oil infrastructure are almost intact and protected while rest of the country's infrastructure is in ruins. You can do your sums from 30 something $$s for barrel.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

halkar

Oil infasutructure needs upgrade for sure as nothing was done under Saddam's regime due to sanctions. I think US has figures of 5-6m barrels a day or more to pump out of Iraq. That is a lot of money when its achived (if I am not mistaken 50-60 billion a year), not sure how much of this will go to Iraqis though. I don't thinkk Iraqis want US to control their oil or any administration that US will bring in Iraq. Makes you wonder again why Americans are there

Ping Chow Chi

Originally posted by halkar
Oil infasutructure needs upgrade for sure as nothing was done under Saddam's regime due to sanctions. I think US has figures of 5-6m barrels a day or more to pump out of Iraq. That is a lot of money when its achived (if I am not mistaken 50-60 billion a year), not sure how much of this will go to Iraqis though. I don't thinkk Iraqis want US to control their oil or any administration that US will bring in Iraq. Makes you wonder again why Americans are there

I am pretty sure that the long term oil contracts for Iraq will be signed up before Iraq gets to vote on who they want to run country.

Memnoch

Originally posted by Ping Chow Chi
I am pretty sure that the long term oil contracts for Iraq will be signed up before Iraq gets to vote on who they want to run country.

yes this is the case. THe puppet government put in place by the states will hand out contracts and should there ever be a DEMOCRATIC iraqi government it won't have the right to change or break these contracts... huray for freedom

Memnoch

Originally posted by pork99
I'm not saying the US is blameless just that no one seems to point a finger at the Soviets or the PRC. They are/were up to the same games as the US

the soviets or the PRC aren't invading Iraq right now... I don't understand why ppl keep ignoring the basic arguement before making an arguement based on it...

to simplify...

1) the US is attacking and occupying Iraq
2) the US NOW claims it is doing this for the purpose of democracy and to remove a brutal regime
3) this statement is extremely hypocritical considering that the US actually helped INSTALL the regime in the first place.
4) it is even more hypocritical considering that the US kept the regime in power and supported it right up to the middle of 2001.
5) It gets even worse, knowing the the US supplied the country with WMD to use against the iranians and its own people, and that the US turned a blind eye to all of the atrocities committed by saddam as long as he played ball with the US.

From these points we can draw the following obvious, logical solution..

The US's claim of wishing to bring "democracy" to Iraq is an outright lie. They wanted to implement regime change yes, but certainly not for anything nearly as noble as Iraqi democracy.

Were the soviets invading iraq with claims of liberation and to bring freedom and democracy we would be discussing them instead of the US, but that isn't what is happening is it? So pls, quit throwing red herrings into the arguement

Memnoch

Originally posted by vorbis
hilarious
Nice to know you present perfectly reasoned factual arguments.

pot kettle black...

look to your own posts before you make such claims

Memnoch

Originally posted by daveirl
But there was probably more oil being pumped out before the war under the oil for food program. If there was no oil being pumped out there would be even less money available for reconstruction and surely that wouldn't be a good thing.

reconstruction? u mean robbing the country blind...

its brilliant isn't it...

1) US destroys Iraqi infrastructure
2) US "loans" Iraq money to rebuild the country
3) US pumps oil out of iraq set at prices controlled by a puppet government
4) Iraq spends the money gotten from the sale of the oil on "reconstruction" to american companies

simple maths lead us to...

US == get oil for free from Iraq...

a wonderful circle don't you think?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Memnoch

Originally posted by daveirl
And there was me thinking that the US had spent over $110 billion on the war. I'm glad you think that equates to free

so you accept that this is a war for oil?

halkar

Originally posted by daveirl
And there was me thinking that the US had spent over $110 billion on the war. I'm glad you think that equates to free

if they knew they wouldn't be getting what they spend with interest, I don't think they would have cared by any means what was going on in Iraq. Remember cost of first Gulf war was paid by Kuwait and Saudis? They don't do anything humanitarian for free either I guess. Why are they giving all the major contracts to their companies? Is it because they are Liberators or occupiers or invaders? I think they are just investors that won't give anything without getting something back.

Victor

Actually the cost of the 1991 war was spread across quite a few countries, however a third of the Oil for Food money went towards reparations. In effect Iraq paid for the war.

Potentially it will end up paying for at least part of the current war costs. Certainly I suspect a lot of "security people" are being paid from the oil kitty.

pork99

This is depressing