Hatred within Irish Society

gurramok

Just seen this article residents against 'undesirable' housing

I find it quite disturbing that this type of hatred still persists within Irish society

The following comments about the tiny housing project(24 homes) from Mr & Mrs Joe soap :
'said they wanted to "object in the strongest possible terms". They added that "it is a known fact that where you have social or shared ownership housing this type of development can lead to anti-social behaviour. For example, under-age drinking, burglary, damage to property and general criminal activity'

Surely there must be some sort of law to prosecute people who make disgusting comments against a section of society and their politicians for nazi type support (Michael Woods and Martin Brady TD's)?

spanner

that is completely unbelivable i cant belive i am hearing this!!! and the minister supports them. it just goes to show you that the divide in irish society is getting worse and worse. it sounds something like from south africa during the apartheit regime. i know i my home town when it was anounced the building of affordable housing for people from the area it was rejoiced by all the people in the area.
i live in north wexford and it fast becoming impossible for first time buyers because people are selling their houses in dublin and move down here with greater purchasing power.

this housing development should be doubled or tribled just to spite these people

mike65

If I owned a home worth half a million I would'nt want any trash anywhere near me! And no I'm not just being controversial. The ppl who are complaining see thier security and finantial future under threat if a development full of working class families with loads of troublesome kids in tow turns up on thier doorstep. I dont know the area but if its got a sedate character and is well looked on by "the market" residents will move heaven and earth to keep it that way.

Mike.

spanner

Originally posted by mike65
If I owned a home worth half a million I would'nt want any trash anywhere near me! And no I'm not just being controversial. The ppl who are complaining see thier security and finantial future under threat if a development full of working class families with loads of troublesome kids in tow turns up on thier doorstep. I dont know the area but if its got a sedate character and is well looked on by "the market" residents will move heaven and earth to keep it that way.

Mike.

so are we to have our cities ghettoised, the reason for anti social behaviour is the policy of ghettoising hundreds of poor people into areas with on facilites. this sounds like a small affordable housing scheme, normal working people who have been price out of dublin, just because they dont have as much money as these people doesnt mean that they are going to be anti social.
as with any problems with division they are never solved with more segregation

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Redleslie

Originally posted by mike65
If I owned a home worth half a million I would'nt want any trash anywhere near me!

What about "coloureds", asylum seekers, and people like me who grew up in pretty rough working class areas (Finglas in my case). Are we all "trash" too? Since I assume you don't live in a half a million euro house doesn't that make you "trash" yourself?

mike65

Speaking personally I'd sooner immigrants than many
natives, I suspect the new arrivals would get on with thier lives rather than ruin the lives of others. I should point out that I don't own a house never mind a nice one. But regardles of that I like to think that I'm a good citizen and dont go around making life hard or unpleasent for anyone.

If I had a valuble asset to protect then I might be worried at the thought of a significant number of ppl who have not got the same stake arriving.

I do realise how that sounds but ppl who have something to protect will usually behave themselves and be "good neighbours" (even as they fiddle the tax-man) while those without something to protect will
be more likely, not certain to allow thier kids run riot, leave junk lying about the place, and so on.

Its not an admirable way to think but if I'm being entirely honest its what most do think (including me to a degree)

BTW this has always been the case I think you'll find.

Mike.

p.s. I know I wont win any arguments with any "right-on" citizens here but what the hell...

alleepally

I can't understand people who have this "them and us" mentality. We have a constitution and live in a democracy. Money and having property and wanting to "protect an asset" is not a valid excuse for seeking to exclude others from an area just because they are "working class". You don't have to be a "right on" citizen to see injustice.

At this moment and time I would qualify for "social and affordable" housing and in theory could apply for a house in that area. I work hard, I have a degree, BUT I just don't happen to be in a well paid job currently. The "funny" thing is that when I was earning a good salary it still wasn't enough to buy a home anywhere close to where I could work a well paid job and still have a quality of life.

I absolutely believe in the principle of social justice and the equitable distribution of wealth. If you do not believe in this principle you really ought to re-evaluate your outlook on life.

mike65

Thats a nice thing to aspire to...

Mike.

alleepally

It's not an aspiration. It's called being human and having empathy with your fellow human beings.

seamus

I think a lot of the anger comes from the obvious raw deal a lot of people are getting.

Afaik, a certain amount of every housing development must now be affordable housing. Imagine the situation where a young single guy works his ass off, gets a very good salary, say €40k a year, and gets himself a €200/250k mortgage to buy a decent home for himself. He's constantly working his ass off, paying upwards of €1,000 a month in mortgage repayments. Then just down the road, possibly in a slightly smaller house, some guy with no job, 4 kids and a pregnant wife, moves in, paying pittance for rent, and with the option to buy the house after the same amount of years that our poor working guy spends paying off his mortgage.

I'm all for treating everyone as equals and helping people out of poverty, but there's something horribly wrong when the guy who's wasting his life and poking his dick in everything that moves gets a better deal and less responsibilities than the guy who's trying to make something of himself, and is a net contributor to society.

Now I know some of my facts here may be wrong, and there are some generalisations, but the very fact that this can occur, even once, shows that the system is f*cked. As well as that, no workign class people aren't generally horrible people to live with, but nobody can deny that their bad apples are the most rotten of the whole orchard. Kids in general are a pain in the ass to neighbours, even the good ones, and working class people generally have more. Hell, I know a teenage couple who are having a second child to get bumped up on the housing list. They even have the cheek to demand to be housed in Tallaght where they grew up.

If I had my way, people on the housing list would get houses that are available. If it's ****ing Leitrim, tough. You need a house, there's one there - if you don't want it, you can pay for your own or go to back of the queue.

(Yes, it's a flash point I think )

alleepally

Well Seamus, I sure do hope none of your family ever need to apply for social and affordable housing. How would you feel if you had a brother with 2 kids and a wife. He's working in a factory, respectable bloke, does his best by his kids, and earns 25k a year. He would quality for social and affordable housing.

Now, you like having a pint with him a couple of times a week, your parents like to see their grandchildren and you're saying you'd be happy if he was told "there's a house in Leitrim for you, take it or leave it...."

seamus

Originally posted by alleepally
Well Seamus, I sure do hope none of your family ever need to apply for social and affordable housing. How would you feel if you had a brother with 2 kids and a wife. He's working in a factory, respectable bloke, does his best by his kids, and earns 25k a year. He would quality for social and affordable housing.

Now, you like having a pint with him a couple of times a week, your parents like to see their grandchildren and you're saying you'd be happy if he was told "there's a house in Leitrim for you, take it or leave it...."

Obviously, if he had a job, he shouldn't be forced to move an unreasonable distance for it. That would be counter-productive. However, if it meant moving to the other side of the city for example, I'd tell him to pack his stuff and move out there.

Obviously when I say "beggars can't be choosers", there has to be exceptions.

ykt0di9url7bc3

Originally posted by gurramok
They added that "it is a known fact that where you have social or shared ownership housing this type of development can lead to anti-social behaviour. For example, under-age drinking, burglary, damage to property and general criminal activity'

imho "under-age drinking, burglary, damage to property and general criminal activity" is a community problem and not based upon social classing...

I do believe like seamus that the Housing situation has horrible flaws, but where the government offer such deals that people will take advantage...the housing scheme can help many people, start their lives, for the ordinary joe soap who lives and earns out his way to his own home, chooses his own home...

god forbid i make any mistakes and end up pennyless and with a family to support and my only safety net asking the government for help

Hell, I know a teenage couple who are having a second child to get bumped up on the housing list. They even have the cheek to demand to be housed in Tallaght where they grew up

maybe they have the help of thier parent nearby to help them rear the children while they try to get a job....you'll never know the full story...

shotamoose

I'm pretty taken aback at the stuff some otherwise sensible people are coming out with on this thread. Social housing tenants are not lepers. To label them all 'trash' or to say they're all wasting their lives is to perpetuate the kind of hateful bigotry that would rightly be condemned if you were talking about people of a different ethnicity.

In my view, everyone has a right to a decent home, and if that means state-subsidised social housing so be it. And developing sub-market and social-rented housing in a 'nice' neighbourhood is EXACTLY the right move if we want to avoid the 'ghettoisation' that some of those letter-writing hypocrite residents seem to deplore. A ghetto out of sight is still a ghetto, but a mixed-tenure community means there's at least a chance that the next generation of children won't grow up with the class-hatred that is apparently still alive and well in Ireland.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

The development on a one-acre site known as "Goff's field" at Roncalli Road, would contain a maximum of 24 homes, 12 of which would be sold as "affordable homes" - aimed at first-time buyers - while the remainder would be social housing.

I doubt theres much issues in regards to the first time buyers are there? I certainly find nothing disagreeable abt it.

However, saying that, i do have to agree with Mike on this one. I've lived in places where i've had social housing near by. And in the majority of those social houses, I've seen trouble, or seen trouble arise from the inhabitants. I'm not saying that all social housing is bad, but i will say that tenants of social housing tend to be troublemalers.

I work hard, and eventually i'll buy myself a house. Once i do that i'm anchored to that spot for the foreseeable future. When i was in apartments, and renting accomadation i could move on if i found my neighbours undesirable. When i have that house i won't be able to move on. And after living in an area for 10+ years I probably won't want to.

I don't want knackers living beside me. <Shrugs> Its not a very leniant attitude, but i don't really care. I pay higher rents, to live free from troubled areas. If these areas had social housing, the safety of that area for children and adults alike would probably drop. (I don't have facts or figures. I lived in Athlone most my life, and I've seen what settled "knackers" can do to an area.)

shotamoose

Originally posted by klaz

I don't want knackers living beside me.

I wouldn't want you living beside me. You're obviously happy to stigmatise a huge group of people based on your beliefs about a small minority.

Funny how the attitude displayed by some on this board - broadly, that morality is somehow not an issue when it comes to one's own housing interests - is exactly that which is being condemned in 'social housing tenants' who are trying to get the best possible housing for themselves and, where applicable, their families.

I wouldn't want you living beside me.

And thats your choice. Its not a matter of morality.

shotamoose

Originally posted by klaz
And thats your choice. Its not a matter of morality.

That's exactly my point. When you said "I don't want knackers living beside me ... Its not a very leniant attitude, but i don't really care" you were making clear that you didn't feel any moral compulsions on an issue which has clear ethical and moral implications - whether people should have access to decent housing in mixed communities, or whether different classes should be segregated.

This is what I mean - people seem to think it's somehow okay to say "when it comes to housing, I don't care if everyone else lives in a rat-hole, and I won't apologise for that". Well, it's not okay.

Nuttzz

NIMBY

Social housing, halting sites they are all the same as far as most people are concerned, its the "snob effect" I have paid 500k for my house here in sutton I dont want Panto & Anto from Baldoyle getting a house for 200k around here.

The problem with his country is house prices and poor planning not social housing schemes

Well, it's not okay.

Tough. I'm not looking for approval from you. I pay dearly for the accomadation that i have. One of the requirements was no knackers near by. I'm not excusing my feelings. I don't need to. To you or to anyone else.

shotamoose

Originally posted by klaz
Tough. I'm not looking for approval from you. I pay dearly for the accomadation that i have. One of the requirements was no knackers near by. I'm not excusing my feelings. I don't need to. To you or to anyone else.

I wasn't expecting a Damascene conversion, and I certainly wasn't expecting you to justify your view, because I don't think you can. I just wanted to point out that bigotry doesn't stop being bigotry because just because it's your property values at stake. "I wouldn't want them living beside me" is no different from "I wouldn't want my son/daughter marrying one of them".

Oh i agree. I am a bigot when it comes to knackers, settled or otherwise.

Fudger

An aspect that cannot be over looked is the fact that such 'affordable' housing developments have come as a direct cause of the over priced outrageous cost of homes in this country especially in Dublin. It seems ironic that the very people who are destroying the housing economy for young buyers ie: estate agents, developers, solicitiors and politicians are the very ones who live in such affluent areas of Dublin and now that the housing crisis is banging on their doors its not acceptable ??!!!

Obviously there are a high number of glass houses in that area and plenty of stones to hand.

shotamoose

Originally posted by klaz
Oh i agree. I am a bigot when it comes to knackers, settled or otherwise.

Yes, and when you fail to distinguish between them and other social tenants you extend that bigotry to a much wider group of people defined only by their ability to access housing on the market.

Yes, and when you fail to distinguish between them and other social tenants you extend that bigotry to a much wider group of people defined only by their ability to access housing on the market

Thats nice. But what i'm doing is being narrow-minded. I'm taking a segment of society that i want no contact with, and placing them outside my sphere of influence.

shotamoose

Originally posted by klaz
Thats nice. But what i'm doing is being narrow-minded. I'm taking a segment of society that i want no contact with, and placing them outside my sphere of influence.

Yes, and I think it's wonderful when the narrow interests of bigoted nimbys like yourself are swept aside like they should be. Up with this sort of thing!

joe90

Just my 2 cents not that it really matters.I am kiwi living in ireland now for the past nine years and love the place.The attuide towards any outsider in this country is amazing i have never seen so much racist,hatred comments towards people.This whole area off illegal or foreign works and the way people go on about them when the irish have been doing it for years,the number off illegal irish workers in new zealand that i knew was a very hi number and they were riding the system to the limit but no one was complaing most were hard workers.Just look at the USA over the last decade how many irish work and live there illegal.I know i should shut or leave and most off you will tell me to but i thouight i would give you and outsider view.

Cheers

Redleslie

Originally posted by mike65
Speaking personally I'd sooner immigrants than many
natives,

I seriously doubt it. Immigrants (especially the "coloureds") are all AIDS ridden woman hating terrorist criminals who don't want to integrate into society dontcha know.

I suspect the new arrivals would get on with thier lives rather than ruin the lives of others.

Racist nimby bigots do go out of their way to ruin the lives of others by stereotyping people and trying to ghettoise them.

I should point out that I don't own a house never mind a nice one.

So you're trash?

But regardles of that I like to think that I'm a good citizen and dont go around making life hard or unpleasent for anyone.

Except for shooting your nimby mouth off and boasting about how you would make "trash" people's lives as unpleasant as possible given the chance.

ixoy

Well folks, I grew up in Sutton and lived there up until a couple of monthd ago so I've some understanding of the mentality of the local area. And yeah, it's pretty much what's been said by others. I've seen my father and mother work damned hard their whole lives to be able to afford us this home. The family's holidays would never be remotely extravagant for a long while because my parents worked towards this goal. My father additionally spent a lot of time studying in college, both as a young man and again in an evening course, to allow him get to where he is now. I can fully understand then people in the area - many in the same position - objecting to X coming in when it would seem apparent that X cannot have put in some of the same effort by virtue of X being in the affordable housing scheme project in the first place. Is there justice then that we should have had to pay a few hundred grand more than X?

Now I know X and family may not be social misfits and could be very hard working but there are clear and proven links between socio-economic backgrounds and behaviour associated with ghettos. You can try and spin it as much as possible, but we alll know it exists. I can fully understand the point being raised that mixing the backgrounds is quite possibly one of the best ways to address it but surely you can see why it's "but not in my area"? Hell it could even boil down to a selfish line of thinking for me. I'll eventually inherit the property along with my sibling. I don't want it devalued to the possibility of social deprecation.