Last year's peace march

magpie

As a matter of interest, who here went on last year's anti-war march?

Do you feel like you achieved anything?

Was it important to march anyway?

I for one am extremely glad to have registered my protest at the war, even though our government chose to ignore us.

Hairy Homer

I was there too. And I'm sure of the 99,998 others there were some who post here occasionally.

It was important to register a protest. As many Americans did too. At least the government can't claim that it ever got a ringing endorsement for its actions. If such they can be called.

Kali

As a matter of interest, who here went on last year's anti-war march?

yep.. pics: http://unknownprocedure.com/gallery/feb15th/

Do you feel like you achieved anything?
Was it important to march anyway?

I never felt like anything would be achieved in the grander scale of things (i.e. halting the war), but yes it was important to march and make the general populations views on the war heard, and seen... and I do believe it had the government running scared for a bit, of course this being Ireland people will still go out and vote for the same government come the next elections.

rde

I was there, and knew at the time that it wouldn't accomplish anything. However, I went anyway, as it was a global day of protest, and that that Ireland should take its part. To my mind, the aim wasn't to convince the American government (or the Irish government specifically), but to let European governments in general know that most people were against the war.

Redleslie

Yeah I was there. I hadn't wanted to go, since it wasn't going to stop the war, but friends made me and I was glad I went in the end. I got the feeling I was helping create an image and event that will be remembered through history or something. One of the things I remember most about it was seeing some English bloke standing outside O'Donoghues (I think) on baggot street yelling abuse at the passing marchers and telling everyone to "go home". It was one of the most articulate arguments in favour of the invasion I'd heard from any of the pro-war barbarians, liars and blowhards.

Morpheus

How can you generalise like that??

How does 100,000 (if indeed even that paltry sum turned up) out of almost 4,000,000 ammount to the "general population" or "most of the populations"
opinions?

last time i checked, 4,000,000 divided by 100,000 does not = greater than 50%

four million divided by one hundred thousand equates to 2.5%

While I wish the anti-war community all the best in their protests, i wish they would cease with the propeganda like thoughts that what turned out on the streets of dublin represent the thoughts and opinions of the majority of people here in ireland.

It simply isnt true,because if even half the population were in support of the cause, you would have seen far more people on the streets campaigning.

Nuttzz

100,000 march for peace, 900,000 stay at home for war!!!!

This years turn out was a lot poorer, I had to laugh when Sinn Fein took the platform, they have never been involved in war.......

Johnmb

Originally posted by Morphéus
How can you generalise like that??

How does 100,000 (if indeed even that paltry sum turned up) out of almost 4,000,000 ammount to the "general population" or "most of the populations"
opinions?

last time i checked, 4,000,000 divided by 100,000 does not = greater than 50%

four million divided by one hundred thousand equates to 2.5%

While I wish the anti-war community all the best in their protests, i wish they would cease with the propeganda like thoughts that what turned out on the streets of dublin represent the thoughts and opinions of the majority of people here in ireland.

It simply isnt true,because if even half the population were in support of the cause, you would have seen far more people on the streets campaigning.

I think the many, many polls that took place at the time proved that the vast majority of Irish people were against the war. That 100,000 that showed up were not the only people against it.

Sparks

Originally posted by Morphéus
It simply isnt true,because if even half the population were in support of the cause, you would have seen far more people on the streets campaigning.

So the largest civil protest in the history of the state is meaningless, eh?
Well done that Bertie.... :rolleyes:

And your numbers are wrong. There were 120,000 people at the march, according to the counts done on the day. At the last election, there were 1,858,113 valid votes cast. Assuming that anyone that came out in cold weather to march would also vote against supporting the war, that's 6.5% of the active electorate, not 2.5%. And given that these people were willing to come out on a cold day and publicly protest despite media attention and the memory of the Dame Street riots fresh in everyone's mind, I think that it's quite reasonable to say that many more people would have voted against supporting the war had there been a referendum where it's more convienent, your vote is secret, there's no chance of riot police laying into you and you know your vote determines policy. Remember, activism is very rare in this country. Few people bother. That so many people were out that day is far more significant than you are making out.

Sand

So the largest civil protest in the history of the state is meaningless, eh

Yes it is, because.....

of course this being Ireland people will still go out and vote for the same government come the next elections.

which sort of invalidates....

to let European governments in general know that most people were against the war.

There were 120,000 people at the march, according to the counts done on the day. At the last election, there were 1,858,113 valid votes cast. Assuming that anyone that came out in cold weather to march would also vote against supporting the war, that's 6.5% of the active electorate, not 2.5%.

Which is still less than most - even if you assume that it was 120000 people and even if you assume that those 120000 were all of voting age or regular voters. Happily the activist/rent a mob crowd are disdainful of voting so we dont have to worry about them actually effecting policy in any shape or form.

Kali

Originally posted by Morphéus
How can you generalise like that??

How does 100,000 (if indeed even that paltry sum turned up) out of almost 4,000,000 ammount to the "general population" or "most of the populations"
opinions?

last time i checked, 4,000,000 divided by 100,000 does not = greater than 50%

four million divided by one hundred thousand equates to 2.5%

Hardly propoganda.. besides which there were similar marchs around the country in various towns.. not just Dublin... logistics and general apathy aside it was a huge turnout... and a wide range of people who normally wouldn't go within two miles of such a hippyfest put aside their preconceptions and gladly attended, that simple fact alone, that normal everyday people of the country (not the crusties or the far-left/right wings) turned up to voice their concerns made it all the more poignant.

Victor

Originally posted by Morphéus
last time i checked, 4,000,000 divided by 100,000 does not = greater than 50%

No one said it was greater that 50%. However, how often do crowds like that take to the street?

Morphéus, how many of "your crowd" are effective and non-effective? How many show up every week?

Morpheus

(Please read the other posts before mine and then you can tell me whats what!!!)

I never suggested it was only 100,000, i was going on what the first 2 posts said.

We were referring to the general population, not the voting population, thats what one of the preceeding posts said.

Victor, to what group do you refer by saying "your crowd" ?

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by Morphéus
How can you generalise like that??

How does 100,000 (if indeed even that paltry sum turned up) out of almost 4,000,000 ammount to the "general population" or "most of the populations"
opinions?

last time i checked, 4,000,000 divided by 100,000 does not = greater than 50%

four million divided by one hundred thousand equates to 2.5%

While I wish the anti-war community all the best in their protests, i wish they would cease with the propeganda like thoughts that what turned out on the streets of dublin represent the thoughts and opinions of the majority of people here in ireland.

It simply isnt true,because if even half the population were in support of the cause, you would have seen far more people on the streets campaigning.

Must buy: Statistics for Dummies.

There were many more people in general sympathy with the march who didn't/couldn't make it on the day. Not everyone has the time to get up from Ballygobackwards to Dublin for a protest march.

magpie

Not everyone has the time to get up from Ballygobackwards to Dublin for a protest march.

Besides, culchies only care about themselves.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
Must buy: Statistics for Dummies.

There were many more people in general sympathy with the march who didn't/couldn't make it on the day. Not everyone has the time to get up from Ballygobackwards to Dublin for a protest march.

Yeah that should be obvious. Everybody in my family of 6 opposed the war but I was the only one that went on the march. Still, 100,000+ people in a city of 1 million and out of a total population of 4 million ought to be impressive enough. How many pro-war marches were there? How many people turned up? Where were all the blowhards and gullible eejits who supported the war because they believed Saddam was the new Hitler? I thought that they would've been campaigning like crazy to get our neutral stance abolished so we could get stuck in with the "coalition", give evil a jolly good thump in the face and save civilisation from tyranny. But no, they must have had other priorities.

Morpheus

"We" are not and never have been, "constitutionally" neutral like our neutral european states...

My statistics may not be impressive, but at least get your politics right.

Also, why " publicly protest" FOR the war, if the govt isn't publicly against it!??

kinda silly suggestion.

bonkey

Originally posted by Morphéus
"We" are not and never have been, "constitutionally" neutral like our neutral european states...

My statistics may not be impressive, but at least get your politics right.

Why? Where did he say that we are constitutionally neutral?

If you're going to be condescending to the guy, you could at least either supply a quote, or stop putting words in his mouth.

jc

shotamoose

Well I went on the march in London, and I'm glad of it. Did it stop the war? No. But the war and the dissent it provoked have seriously damaged Tony Blair, and now nobody believes a word he says.

Besides, the idea that you should only protest about something when you're certain that protest will change the outcome is absurd in the extreme. Politics is unpredictable, and protest adds an ingredient of your own choosing to the mix.

Morpheus

What I meant was... if were not constitutionally neutral, then you cant say ireland is neutral!!!

You CAN say Ireland has a largely neutral stance in its defence policy regarding foreign affairs.

If I came across as condascending, my apologies, debate is proactive, I didnt intend to cause offence, its good to talk, it just gets me that so many irish people blindly assume that we are constitutionally neutral, you wouldnt believe how many time s ive said this and smiled at the disbelief on others faces!!

Johnmb

Originally posted by Morphéus
What I meant was... if were not constitutionally neutral, then you cant say ireland is neutral!!!

You CAN say Ireland has a largely neutral stance in its defence policy regarding foreign affairs.

If I came across as condascending, my apologies, debate is proactive, I didnt intend to cause offence, its good to talk, it just gets me that so many irish people blindly assume that we are constitutionally neutral, you wouldnt believe how many time s ive said this and smiled at the disbelief on others faces!!

I think most people know and accept that. Most people also realise that we are not politically neutral (which is even more obvious than the constitutional thing), but up until fairly recently, most Irish people thought that we were militarily neutral (peace keeping under the auspices of the UN doesn't generally get considered as effecting neutrality). We now know otherwise.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Morphéus
"We" are not and never have been, "constitutionally" neutral like our neutral european states...

My statistics may not be impressive, but at least get your politics right.

Also, why " publicly protest" FOR the war, if the govt isn't publicly against it!??

kinda silly suggestion.

Ireland is not in NATO and is the only country in the EU to refuse to publicly support or oppose the war, so I'd call that neutral. If the pro-war mob really supported the war and really believed the nonsense that Saddam was the new Hitler then they should've been out in the streets and in the courts trying to get parts of Article 29 amended to take out any mention of "international law" and demanding to join the war. Didn't happen though did it? Too much effort to get off the barstool obviously.

Victor

Originally posted by Morphéus
Also, why " publicly protest" FOR the war, if the govt isn't publicly against it!??

But Bertie says the 100,000 were supporting him ....

Johnmb

Originally posted by Victor
But Bertie says the 100,000 were supporting him ....

LOL!!!
And the sad thing is, I'm not surprised. Can you remember where you seen this? If it's still there, I could do with a laugh.

Victor

Originally posted by Johnmb
And the sad thing is, I'm not surprised. Can you remember where you seen this? If it's still there, I could do with a laugh.

Not sure, it might have been quoted here. It was picked up a few months ago that Bertie had (a) claimed the crowd were on his side (b) felt his stance was vindicated when Bush declared the end to major combat operations.

Nuttzz

Ireland is not in NATO

no but we are part of NATO's PfP, so its a little from column A and a little from Column B

pork99

I felt uneasy about the start of the war last year because it was not a war that absolutely had to be fought. (Though I also suspect it could only have been postponed for a few years)

However I would never have gone out to protest as the "anti-war" - in reality "anti-American" marches - were run by a ragbag of unrepresentative left-wing groups, SWP/SF/Green Party rent-a-mob.

I mean war is a hard thing not to be against but I felt that being anti-war in this case was also to be unwittingly pro-Saddam.

Gyck

As a matter of interest, who here went on last year's anti-war march?

Yes, I was there. Did I feel like I achieved anything?

For the first time in my life I registered my frustration at an event that was global.

I knew that at the time it would mean next to nothing. Bush is still in power. The world is still fekked up. But for the first time in my life I wanted others to know how I felt. Frustrated. Annoyed. Sad.

And it felt good: in a sad, perverse way.

Agent Smith

i was there, and even tho wour voice was egnored, it was worth the effort.

Morpheus

Originally posted by Redleslie
Ireland is not in NATO and is the only country in the EU to refuse to publicly support or oppose the war, so I'd call that neutral.

:rolleyes: id call THAT sitting on the fence, something this spineless, useless overpaid govt is good at. And PfP = Almost member of NATO.

chewy

One of the main points put to those argueing for peace recently was that we couldn't just sit on the sidelines of interenational situations and be pacifist, but we need to active in struggling for peace rather then giving our resources to others to fight wars.

Alot of people have concerns about our defence being left to and paid for by other countries which is reasonable concern but not a reason to relinquish our peaceful reputation. After all the dicussion and protests most people realise that Ireland is not neutral. I believe the Irish people want to be peaceful (as seen on Feb 15th) not by our "policies" or "alliances" but by our actions. Active peace means to me to have not allow foreign military in our country, ethical investment, and put ourselves out to promote negotiate peace internationaly.

letter i wrote to newspapers way back when