Attitude Era... ECW... are they the ruination of todays wrestling?

Hanza

Attitude Era... ECW... are they the ruination of todays wrestling?

Weither you are a fan of ECW or not! ECW began with total distaste and a controversial moment. When Shane Douglas threw down the NWA title, Eastern Championship Wrestling became Extreme! ECW was brash, violent, outspoken and controversial. Many believe, if it wasnt for ECW, we would have never seen Mick Foleys rise to fame, the infamous TLC matchs or Austin, in the words of Eric Bishoff, amounting to more then a mid card wrestler.

This "ATTITUDE ERA" was the new wrestling. Tits and ass, cussing, violence, intence over the top story lines. Plus, many believe it gave birth to smarts.

While I was watching the Rob Feinstein Shoot interview with the Road Warriors on TWC 2 weeks ago it dawned on me how much wrestling has changed since 1990. My question to you is this:

Is wrestling too much these days. As good as some of the matches are, the vast majority of wrestlers are stiff and/or dangerous. Matches are no longer worked, they just seem to be high spots with no story. As much as WWE focuses on the more tenical aspect of professional wresrtling, many indies just centre around violence and spot matches. ROH claims to be pure wrestling, all I have seen is strong style matches or spots. Where is all the wrestling gone?

Now! I am content with wrestling now days. And this isnt some anger filled post. I was wondering if anyone else feels that wrestling is more entertainment then it needs to be. Let me put it this way, would you rather see HHH dressed as Kane pretending to have sex with a dead girl, or would you rather see a 5 star classic?

Hanza

jongore

ECW changed the face of wrestling and WWE copied many of their inovations. This led to a fast paced, extreme type of wrestling, it excited the crowd but it also led to numerous wrestlers getting injured.

WWE have being trying to get back to the older style as it soon figured out that the amount in injuries they were getting wasn't sustainable.

Wretlers have been instructed to 'slow down and work their holds', WWE have done away with the hardcore title, almost completly cut out piledrivers and other dangerous moves and have limited the amount of chair shots guys take in a bid to reduce the amount of injuries.

If the story is told right and the ring work is good then they can get away with this, but it seriously limits what the cruiserweights can do in the way of extreme top rope moves.

I don't think the attitude era ruined wrestling, it was exciting and fast paced but it wasn't sustainable. They should keep these dangerous matches for PPVS and high profile events and concentrate on getting back to good storylines.

oneofakind32

Wrestlers have been using pile drivers since the days of jerry the king lawler down in memphis, maybe even before, im not sure. A chair shot to the head if delivered and taken properly is relitivly harmless (in the short run). Wrestlers dont have to injure themselvs to put on a good hardcore match. Look at spike dudley hes gotten his ass kicked week in week out for the past 10 years in ECW and WWE. Hes recieved numerous chair shoots and has been put through countless tables. Yet the injury he listed as his most painfull on WWE.com was a run of the mill alabama slam. The move wasnt botched. Its the kind of move we see every week and take for granted. If he was power bombed over the top rope though a table it would have gotten a huge pop and would have hurt him less. Hardcore wrestling dosent injure people, inexperience and burt fource dose.

jongore

The piledriver if done correctly is fine but if a mistake is made it's one of the most dangerous moves going, the same goes for chair shots.

When done right the hits take in a HC match are relativly harmless but when things go wrong the chance of injury increases.

Skud

it doesn't matter who you are in wwe only vince's arse bandits get to do the extreme moves (al snow and undertaker as two examples, snow for doing ToughEnough)

jongore

I can't rember the last time I saw Al wrestle, let alone do an extreme move.

Undertaker and Kane are big enough to do a piledriver without injuring anyone (Notice how far Lindas head was from the stage when Kane piledrove her?)

I actualy enjoy the hardcore stuff and would love it if the shackles where removed from the cruiserweights but I can understand the thinking behind limiting moves that are percieved as dangerous by the company.

Nolimits

I understand why they have to tone down the product, use more psychology in the ring and so forth, but it doesnt mean i like it.

I think wrestling should have something for everyone that includes spotfests, hardcore, like someone eles said though you just gotta use is wisely, on the PPVs and so forth.

I really think cruisers should be allowed to do their thing though, with out being able to do the highflying moves and complicated spots there are nothing more than smaller versions of the bigger guys. They need something to make them stand out.

Hanza

There is nothing wrong with spots in matches. Rey Mysterio has the cruiser weight down to a T. He works the match, and delivers spots where they are needed.

Look at ROH and CZW. They have some excellent talent, but Ive seen people hit the ground from a frog splash or leg drop and sell the move totally OTT, and then get up from a double underhook driver like nothng happened.

The ROH scramble matches are fun, but look at Sick Nick Mondo and Jody Fleish... retired at the ages of 23 and 26. Thats bullsh1t! Wrestlers need to start thinking what wrestling really means.

Bret Hart said it best; Its very pretty ballet wrestling...

Hanza

Skud

al used do the emerald fusion, where someone drops you vertically on you neck, how is that not dangerous?

Exit

Anytime I've seen any of the indy promotions, it's basically just all spots and very little psychology. So to answer your question, yeah I believe maybe it has ruined wrestling in that almost every new guy coming into the industry thinks that spots are what makes a good wrestler and very few actually learn the psychology aspect.

jongore

Originally posted by Skud
al used do the emerald fusion, where someone drops you vertically on you neck, how is that not dangerous?

I think the phrase 'used to' is what is important here, Hurricane was recently lambasted by management for doing the vertebreaker. The point I was making is that most of the dangerous moves, esp those that can damage the neck have either been banned or reduced hugely.

Look at the amount of neck injuries there has been in the last few years, Angle, Austin, Benoit, Edge, Rhyno, Lita... and the list goes on. These injuries are no joke and even when surgery can repair the problem it's at least a 9 month layoff.

With this in mind can you blame WWE for reducing the risks to their talent?

Hanza

What jongore is saying is totally true...

WWE have specifically asked for sertin moves to be cortailed or executed in a different manner. Power bombs are mainly used by cruiser weights at the mo, with the exception of Batistas Demon Bomb, which is less painful due the fact its a sit down power bomb.

Let me explain. A power bomb from a standing position is dangerous due to the fact that the opponent is being spun on his axis and then caught of the executers pelvis, flipping them, making them land mainly on their inner trapisius muscle and neck. However, a sit down powerbomb (Tiger driver/tiger bomb) simply does not allow the victim to be spun past their own axis a second time, hence landing on their back perfectly so they can brake fall correctly.



WWE have cut back moves, the tiger and dragon suplex have been almost outlawed. The only move thats not allowed under any surcimstance is the Ganzo bomb. Which is:

Pick your opponent up for a power bomb, let their body fall so you have them almost in a hanging boston crab. Then fall to your knees. Instant broken neck(just add water)

Hanza

markomac316

Grrr i made a really long post but my internet screwed up and i lost it so a short version of it is...

Lita broke her neck filming for some t.v program nothing to do with WWE(F).

Secondly ECW made wrestling great, it give the chance for me anyway to stop getting laughed at, all be it for a year, for my liking of wrestling. It allowed people to appreciate something that ive enjoyed and loved my whole life pretty much. WWE brought it in people enjoyed it it was a good time, its something you can tell your kids in twenty years time when your watching the latest ep of Raw or Smackdown. How the wrestling industry changed. I love my tech matches, obviously with Bret Hart being my favourite wrestler of all time and Id enjoy every technical {scientific} match up I watched, but Id love to watch a triple stacked burning table, cage, hell in a cell match just to say I saw it. People want to see the impossible, the impossible is wrestling, if a wrestler is prepared to take the risks then id say let them, they no they are chancing fate. They are paid well enough to do it and they have a freedom of choice weither or not to do it.

Also I dare say the attitude era and ECW, did not bring around career ending injuries, I dare say they were around for many years, especially during the days key-fabe days when your wife could have shot your opponent because they thought it was real. Id take the neck injuries anyday of the week.

Exit

Originally posted by markomac316
Also I dare say the attitude era and ECW, did not bring around career ending injuries, I dare say they were around for many years, especially during the days key-fabe days when your wife could have shot your opponent because they thought it was real. Id take the neck injuries anyday of the week.

That doesn't make sense. In what way did wrestlers get injured more because of kayfabe?

markomac316

There was more of a chance of them getting murdered thats what i meant, so Im just saying Id rather have a neck injury over being murdered any day of the week.

Exit

I've only ever heard of two wrestlers being murdered ever, and neither of them were due to kayfabe as far as I know. I get what you're saying, but there is still more of a risk in wrestling today compared to back then.

Hanza

Agreed!

I dont know how you can atribute kayfabe to a career ending injury.

Tommy Dreamer and Steve Corino, both important figures in ECW agreed that ECW did more harm then good. Another point to be argued is that the fans demanding too much is a major problem. Bret Hart talks about how he controlled the fans. Thats the way it should be, not like in CZW especially, where the crowd has better psycoligy then the wrestlers. The Philly crowds can control the matchs just by chaning....

WTF?

Hanza

Wacker

I'm sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I'm new to this forum and I wanted to make a few points on this thread.

In my opinion, the biggest factors affecting injuries are the sort of ring used and the work scedule.

On his DVD, Mick Foley mentions that he liked to take lots of moves on the (cold! hard!) concrete as it didn't hurt much more than moves done in the ring, and nobody could claim that he had an easy landing, like they would when he took bumbs in the ring.
Although ECW had a far more hard-hitting style than the WWE, using far more pile-drivers and the like, this is counter-balanced by the fact that they used a softer, springier (is that a word?) ring. Hence, there were less injuries than you would expect considering the style.
Although that ring did make a lot of noise, which was annoying.

With regards to the travel schedule, it is well known that the main thing the body needs in order to recover from punishment is time and rest. WWE workers see very little of these. One of the many reasons why indy workers can take brutal bumbs and thus have spot-fest matches is that they will have a while to recover. With WWE guys working three of four days a week, this is simply not an option.
So, while the German suplex is not the most devestrating move ever, taking them day-in-day-out will eventually get you an appointment will Dr. Youngblood.

Not much you can do about that, unless the WWE is willing to cancel all house shows, which isn't very likely. Maybe they could use an ECW style soft ring for non-televised events.

raven136

i also have never been on this forum and i have a few points to make.
I always loved wrestling but to bhonest the iron man match you all talk about is simply boring,its full of arm bars and single leg take downs and i watched it again last night just to refresh the brain.
That to me is olympic style wrestling and ill watch the olympics for that not the wwe/ecw.I became a fanatical ECW fan during its heyday and to say that wrestlers did not control the match during those days then watch Raven v Dreamer.

Yes there are high spots which make it more exciting but its abit better than watching hhh do another running knee or chop to slow down his match,and if you think high spot wrestlers can pull off the technical stuff watch teddy hart do jumping arm bar take down.
jake the snake is another"old skool"guy and says no one can do a DDT like him....someone should show him dreamer doing his,it's pure perfection to see.

I love both forms of wreslting but i just think that sometimes technical wrestling can become boring.....except when done by angle,benoit etc and i believe there is a place for both in modern professional wrestling.
Without ECW there would not be as much coverage and support for wrestling these days as it was they who encouraged that attitude era that brought the wwe to the masses again in the form of stone cold