Wenger..Will contain spoilers

markomac316

After 8 years at Arsenal Arsene Wenger has won 5 things, is this good enough?.

Two seasons in a row he's lost his teams momentium going into the final stages and now Arsenal could end up with only one or no trophies at all this season. Yes hes created a great fluent, at times unbelievable to watch side but the side dont have a mental spirit in a match. Once they drop a goal the whole team drops and doesnt want to know, and this is a reflection in the players he buys.

Im not an Arsenal fan, i dont support any team in the premier league so im totally neutral, but i think Arsenal really need a change. A great team that wins nothing isnt great, a team that finishes second nobody remembers, Arsenal is filled with empty promises. They have no heart {apart from Cole and possibly Sol Campbell}.

Wenger does nothing but moan when things go wrong, he never criticises anything, I wouldnt want him at my team. Does anyone else but me think Wenger should go he's proved his worth 8 years and 2 league titles, that really isnt good enough for a manager that he is meant to be.

mr_angry

Considering where Arsenal were when he took over... yes, I think he's done more than enough. There are plenty of teams with the same financial clout as Arsenal, and who draw a similar amount of fans every week who would love to be as successful as Arsenal (Villa, for example). To say they aren't a successful club would be unfair.

Pepe LeFrits

First of all, should Arsenal hold off Chelsea to win the title, it will still be a successful season. Disappointing to have gone out to their rivals in the Cup and CL, but by the time the premiership ends in 2 months time the disappointment will have faded and they'll remember how good it is to win the premiership (for only the third time since Wenger arrived). IF.

I don't think Wenger is the problem. He has made some dodgy decisions recently but the players are to blame (particularily the leading players). Wenger leaving now would be disastrous for Arsenal. For a few reasons:

- It would most likely herald a mass exodus of the players.
- Arsenal aren't at a stage yet where success has become self sustaining like it is for Man Utd. Wenger will be needed until then at least.
- Attracting new players would become much more difficult.

2 League doubles is far more than I could have hoped before Wenger came along. He is still building, and Arsenal's youth system now looks genuinely strong... Again, Wenger is important to its ongoing growth and development. He is a large part of the reason a lot of young players want to play for Arsenal now.

markomac316

I said he's done well but I think he's brought Arsenal as far as he can, only twice has he brought them beyond the group stages of the C-L.

If he doesnt go id be happy enough because they'd probably be after M.O.N just like everyone else in England.

Pepe LeFrits

In fairness, in recent times, who has done well in Europe? Fergie's CL record is hardly legendary either.

markomac316

Sorry only saw that other guys post...

A great youth system where nobody gets on? I've heard about this Spannish wiz-kid but I'd rather see home grown talent people who will play with their hearts on their sleeves.

Thats how great teams were formed. Look at Man Utd.

Fergies record is pretty good, this is the first time Man Utd havent reached the 1/4's in a good lot of years.

Pepe LeFrits

Where nobody gets on? eh?

Yeah well there's a problem with getting great homegrown talent, this is England we're talking about here...

vorbis

what markomac316 crap by markomac316. Where have the likes of Liverpool been the past 8 seasons? The team is progressing well enough. As mentioned a league title is still a successful season. tbh I think markomac316 is trolling. Arsenal are in contention every year and playing good football. What happened tonight seems mainly a result of fatigue. Next season a la Chelsea, they should grind out a succession of 1-0 and 2-1 wins rather than expend too much enery playing attractive football.

JippoKelly

Getting rid of Arsene Wenger would be madness! He's only won 5 things in 8 years! Most football clubs haven't won major 5 trophies in their whole existence, never mind in 8 years.

You also have to bear in mind, that although Arsenal may not have won the league that often in Wenger's time (Twice still isn't by any means bad! 2 more than Mr. Houllier who has spents considerably more i'd imagine!), that is as much down to the strength of Ferguson and United as opposed to poor management by Wenger.

Wenger turned boring, boring Arsenal into a breath-takingly talented team that is arguably one of the best in Europe, and one that consistently challenges for honours domestically.

The Arsenal board shoudn't sack him, far from it - they should build a statue to worship him at Ashburton Grove!

Jivin Turkey

This has been Wengers best season (probably) to say he is past it is crap, so what they have lost 2 games in a row, who would have predicted arsenal to go so far in the summer? After they signed 1 major player, a goal keeper. Arsenal have never had a huge budget, but yet their future is well secure wit hall the youth coming through.

JippoKelly

I'm not doubting for a second that there are good players coming from the Gunners' youth system, but as I'm not an Arsenal fan I'm not familiar with any of them. Which players are you talking about? Bentley & Stack? Are you including young foreign players like Clichy, Aliadiere and Fabregas(sp?) as part of the youth system?

Jivin Turkey

I would definately include the likes of Clichy et al as part of the youth system, they were bought for nothing and nurtued and matured by Arsenal to be the players they are today.

SanFranMan

quote vorbis
what markomac316 crap by markomac316.

Steady on, its a fair question. Every other top club gets asked the same question if their manager fails in the CL every year, why not Wenger? He's had a nice long honeymoon.
Personally, I think it would be madness to get rid of him, because he is among the best in Europe right now. It'd be more trouble than its worth, even if the likes of Capello were attracted to the job, the changeover is never likely to be smooth.

I think he's learning and improving all the time. True, he really needs a few whacks with the reality stick to stop him whinging when his team / tactics co*k up (is this a French thing? Im thinking Houllier as I type....).
Fair enough question, but I think he's doing the job as far as competing in England is concerned, and I'd give him another couple of years cracking at the CL before considering other options. At least give him a chance to rebuild if he wants to offload some of the serial chokers in the team.

Pepe LeFrits

The whole youth system/signed young players thing is a bit hazy. Simpler just to say they've got some very promising young players.

There are the two keepers, Stack & Taylor. Clichy is one of this season's signings who has made a big impact. Senderos (central defender) is another bargain signing tipped for great things, he's been injured all season which apparently is the reason we haven't seen him. Hoyte is a CB/RB who is also highly rated, he featured in the carling cup and is doing well in the reserves. Left winger/forward Ryan Smith also played in the carling cup, he's highly rated but only 16 so unlikely he'll be seen for some time. Better known are the forwards David Bentley (introduced to Boro in the league with a nice goal) and Aliadiere, who despite his poor return from injury against United, looks to be a very promising talent (according to football transfers he is a youth system product, i'm not quite sure what that means frankly).

The biggest talent in the reserves is Francesc Fabregas, he signed from Barcelona at the beginning of the year when he was 15, football-transfers says he cost £2.5m but that seems excessive for what i presume is compensation. Apparently Barcelona were very unhappy to see him go, saying he was the best talent their youth system ever produced. He's a creative centre midfielder, he's already Arsenal's youngest ever scorer, and he got the golden boot with 6 goals and player of the tournament award at the U-17 world cup. He's currently tearing up the reserves and looks like it won't be long before he features in the XI. Brief clip i picked up from a youth game - http://www.kaids.com/stuff/cesc.mpeg

Another one i heard about recently and will be following with interest is an Irish kid called Anthony Stokes. Don't know much about him, i've read a few match reports of him playing and scoring with various Ireland youth teams, as well as scoring 4 goals in 2 days with the Arsenal reserves and U-17s, playing well with the likes of Wiltord and Kanu. He scored 4 goals in a youth cup game this season (included a clip of one of his goals), and was apparently headhunted by Man Utd. Who knows if he'll ever make the grade, but it shows Wenger & Arsenal's concern for building for the future. http://www.kaids.com/stuff/stokes.mpeg

// edit - seems Stokes has scored 19 goals in 25+4 (don't ask) games in the reserves/youths.

jank

getting rid of wenger!
now im after hearing everything, ok sometimes he lacks a bit of killer instinct with regards finishing off teams and campaigns but to be fair what did fergie win in his first 8 years!
or even GH.

2 league titles 3 fa cups aint bad (suppose charity shields dont count)
and a new 60,000 all seater stadium on its way
he took arsenal from a mid table team that played boring 1-0 football and transfered them into a great football looking team, and one of the best in europe,
european success will come in the next few years, im sure of that.

i expect a good few young arsenal players to make their mark next season or you may see more of them now that the league is priority.

doozerjack

Onto the old "Fergie in the first eight years" stuff again...... you already started a thread on that, why dont you check out the responses.
Here's a new fact to chew on - Wenger hasnt got past the Q/F of the CL in 6 attempts (and even has trouble getting THAT far). "Fergie" won it at the sixth attempt.

Fair enough though, any calls for Wenger's sacking hold no water. He is the second best manager in the PL history, and might turn it around in Europe if he wakes up to a few fundamental flaws in his and his "not-great" team's character.

jank

Originally posted by doozerjack

Onto the old " stuff again...... you already started a thread on that, why dont you check out the responses

as far as i recall i didnt start a thread on that i was only stating a FACT
can you deny that fact

Here's a new fact to chew on - Wenger hasnt got past the Q/F of the CL in 6 attempts (and even has trouble getting THAT far). "Fergie" won it at the sixth attempt

what fergie won the CL in 1992!? news to me

Fair enough though, any calls for Wenger's sacking hold no water. He is the second best manager in the PL history, and might turn it around in Europe if he wakes up to a few fundamental flaws in his and his "not-great" team's characte

what i said above although i may dispute the "second" later!
only used the "Fergie in the first eight years" to make a point thats all

SanFranMan

Actually, I did read somewhere that this was Wenger's sixth attempt at the Champions League, by way of comparison to Ferguson winning it at his sixth attempt, the first being '94. I dont know how accurate it is, but it sounds about right.

I think he'll have to bring in a little more British spirit this summer if he's going to improve their chances though. They could still win it, given the right run of games, but they do lack something when the pressure is on, and for that reason they probably would have slipped up this time anyway against Monaco / Milan / whoever. He should be given a budget, another contract for Bergkamp, a pfo letter for Kanu, and a couple of years to continue progress, particularly if this youth team really is producing some up-and-coming talent.

I know it'd be controversial, and unlikely, but Beckham is probably the best buy they could make, to add a bit of balls, and meet the quality standards set.

Big Nelly

They should sack someone alright


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Jens "Mophead" Lehmann

Taylor or Stack are 10 times better keeper than him! I said a few weeks ago he wud cost Arsenal the Chelsea game and I was proved right.....both legs he made stupid mistakes

markomac316

Every season Wenger fails at the final hurdle. He cant keep the players motoviated and to quote Martin O'Neill wouldnt you rather be playing more games at the end of the season than none at all.

Every team Wenger has had falls at the end of the season, if they go on to win the league fair enough but im just saying he needs to get better at getting the players going. I dont like his style at all.

mike65

Jesus H, I've read some silly notions on this board before (most of the time actually!) but this takes the biscuit.

Arsenal are about to win thier 3rd, 3RD! league title under Wenger and this is underachieving?

I'm no Gooner so I'm not sure about the clubs history but had any other Arsenal manager won so many trophies in the same period of time? Wengers only failure and this is relative, is the CL. I would'nt bet any money on them not going further next season.

Mike.

Pepe LeFrits

Originally posted by mike65
I'm no Gooner so I'm not sure about the clubs history but had any other Arsenal manager won so many trophies in the same period of time?

Depends on the importance assigned to the trophies i suppose

Arsenal won the league 5 times out of 6 in the 30s but over two different managers, Herbert Chapman first, and then George Allison. Chapman won 3 leagues and 1 FA cup in 9 years, Allison 2 leagues and 1 FA cup in 13. I guess Chapman is still the most successful league titles wise, but that may not last long.

George Graham won 2 leagues, 1 FA cup, 2 league cups and the Cup Winners Cup in 9 years, so technically he is the most successful ever Arsenal manager!

sleepwalker

five trophies in 8 years is a fantastic achievment


all of this talk about needing more British players is rubbish. This stereotype of all foreign players somehow playing with less passion is ridiculous. The Arsenal team this season has shown enormous passion in the league and it is why they are unbeaten. Without their mental strength they wouldnt have gotten points from all those games were they fell behind or were simply not playing well. Fatigue and a lack of strength in depth is what has cost us dearly in the last 2 games. this season we have played in 4 competitons and out of 50 games we have only lost 6, two of which we fielded pretty much our reserves/youth team in the carling cup games against boro. Teams that play without passion do not achieve results like that.
Arsenal can still go and remain unbeaten and lift that Premiership trophy in May and if that happens how the hell could anyone really criticize Wenger ?

Dr Bolouswki

Yeah Wengers pure crap - only constant challenger to Man Uniteds dominance of the UK scene, bringing through fantastic players on a comparitively limited budget, introducing some of the most stylish fluid football that has been seen in many years... yeah, the guys a total failure. That's why Real Madrid, another team of losers are trying to sign him...

The thread starters sig gives us a fair idea of how seriously his ideas on sport should be taken. Wrestling. Yeah.:rolleyes:

However, I think the point about arsenal running out of steam is valid. I blame one person for this. David Dein. With one of the most coveted managers in the world, a team that boasts (arguably) the most sought after spine in Campbell, Viera and Henry and with Ashburton Grove garunteeing them a much higher revenue through future ticket sales, why has he not given Wenger more money to give the squad more depth?

Arsenal are tired. Simple as that. They have a very compact squad and although they seem to manage to avoid long term injuries, the players simply get tired towards the end of a season.

And as for the idea that Arsenal should or do or are even dreaming of replacing Wenger with 'M.O.N.' keep dreaming buddy. Martin shines in that little northern league, and is a great tactician and man manager as his UEFA cup runs show, but it remains to be seen if he can manage world class talent - I'd love to see O'Neill back in the PL with a strong team and plenty of money, but the idea that he will replace Wenger is laughable.

Stick to wrestling Markomac. Maybe you sound plausible when you talk about that 'sport'.

gandalf

LOL I love it when the bitter United fans start threads off about Arsenal

Sack Wenger are you kidding I remember before him, Bruce Rioch !!!!! The only good thing he ever did was sign Bergkamp (and that was more than likely David Deins doing). How long did it take for Fergie to win anything at United, my god you lot have short memories !!!!

Th last few days have been disappointing for us Arsenal fans but if you remember Arsenal nearly didn't make it past the League stage of the Champions League after that any further progress was a bonus and I'm glad its Chelsea that knocked us out because it means that twat Kenyons life is made difficult if he goes through with firing Ranieri now.

The FA cup yes it is devestating to go out to your nearest rivals but it is interesting looking at the change in attitudes by all the United fans & team to the FA cup this season. So its no longer a 2nd rate competition any more eh LOL.

The League isn't over but todays win has steadied the ship a bit. If I were a United fan I would be more worried. Ferguson has only one or two seasons left in the tank and I cannot see who would replace him at united, if he leaves I can see the whole team going into a decline for a while (don't worry they won't do a Leeds United, well they may do in my dreams !!!).

Gandalf.

jank

sure didnt roy keane call the FA cup a load of ****e in his book!!
how quickly fickle utd fans change their tune

yes arsenal sometimes fail to shine in crucial parts of the season but you have to look at the whole situation here

they played the next 2 best teams in england within 3 days and lost twice, with a bit of luck and maybe more graft they could have beaten them but it was not to be, you cant win them all.
arsenal have managed and even passed utd in the last few years on a fraction of the budget!

arsenal will be there or there abouts under wenger (he has about 5 years left at arsenal while fergie could count the days to his retirement imo) and im sure european success will come under him.

in a recent issue of a utd supporters mag, it said how wenger was the best man in britian to take over utd(obviously that wont happen)!

but he does command an awfull amount of respect in the world of managers
real madrid have been after him for years!

The Muppet

Yet again a perfectly legitimate thread about arsenal turns into a United bashing one .
I have not seen any threads where united fans have said The FA cup is any more than their third choice competition, a link to support thiis point would be nice.

Yet again we see ill informed comments about Arsenals spending Power. Arsenal have spent just as much on their squad as United an Liverpool in fact as I pointed out in another thread here the complete United starting 11 that knocked arsenal out of the FA Cup cost less than the Reyes to Arsenal Deal .


Now on the topic of getting rid of Wenger, the notion is a ludicrous as those who have said United should get rid of Fergie, wenger has done agreat job at Arsenal turning one of the most boring team to watch into one of the most exciting. He is a good manager and if he were to go I,m sure Viera Henry and Pires wouldn,t be too far behind which would leave Artsena in a very poor state.

sleepwalker

Yet again we see ill informed comments about Arsenals spending Power. Arsenal have spent just as much on their squad as United an Liverpool in fact as I pointed out in another thread here the complete United starting 11 that knocked arsenal out of the FA Cup cost less than the Reyes to Arsenal Deal.

in fairness though that leaves alot of signings out such as kleberson, djemba-djemba, howard bellion and saha who all contribute as squad players which is a fair point considering your comparing it to reyes who at the moment is very much a squad player

so really I think everyone knows that United have greater spending power than Arsenal they just dont usually use it very recklessly like they have this season

honestly though as an arsenal fan I don't really care because I dont think United have ever really bought themselves to success

markomac316

To call me a united fan is ridicilious mate. I dont support any Premier League team im a Celtic fan through and through no time for other teams, I was just making a point that Wenger cannot keep his team going. Wenger hasnt had a limited budget, Edu cost near 7million, Wiltord cost 11m, Henry almost as much, Reyes 20m, Silvinho costs a couple of mil, Vieira, Pires, Campbell is still costing Arsenal a couple of mil, as is Kanu so I wouldnt say Arsenal dont have the money.

As for M.O.N not being a great manager, the guy took a medicore team floating around in the nationwide to a decent premier league team, when he left they went down hill back into the nationwide league. He took Celtic to the UEFA cup final, beating some good English teams on the way, he made Chris Sutton back into the player he was, so to say the guy couldnt cut it with the big guns is lies. If he had the budget of Man Utd, Arsenal or Chelsea he would have Celtic still in the champions league.

elbow316

I nominate this one for worst thread ever

However, I think the point about arsenal running out of steam is valid. I blame one person for this. David Dein. With one of the most coveted managers in the world, a team that boasts (arguably) the most sought after spine in Campbell, Viera and Henry and with Ashburton Grove garunteeing them a much higher revenue through future ticket sales, why has he not given Wenger more money to give the squad more depth?

In all honesty, the gradual development of Arsenal from a club that was starting to lose touch into the one which today, can compete with everyone in Europe on the pitch and is developing facilities to match anything around, is down to two main people, Arsene Wenger and David Dein.

It was completely down to Dein that Wenger was Arsenal manager in the first place and they have a very close working relationship, which is probably one of the main reasons why Wenger has turned down Madrid twice.

It's lead to Wenger having a ridiculous amount of input with our state-of-the-art training facilities, even down to the colour of the furniture - apparently its to do with moods etc . You can bet Arsene will have a massive say in every aspect of the new Stadium as well.

Btw, Dein isn't actually Arsenal chairmain, thats Peter Hill-wood.

The idea of showing Wenger the door is just insane.
The man's an absolute genius, bringing in players who are very raw and turning them into superstars. He's also shown his skills in building a fantastic team spirit. He has rebuilt a back four which looked like an almost impossible task with Dixon, winterburn, Adams and Bould all returing in a short space of time.

As well as trophies, he's been very, very close to others while all the time we play with a style that only a handful of teams in europe can match. We are in a sitiuation now where we are possibly only a couple of players (And not necessarily key players) short of being one of the dominant European sides.

So you could say I have a lot of respect for the man

Big Ears

Originally posted by kaids
The whole youth system/signed young players thing is a bit hazy. Simpler just to say they've got some very promising young players.
.
The biggest talent in the reserves is Francesc Fa..
Another one i heard about recently and will be following with interest is an Irish kid called Anthony Stokes. Don't know much about him, i've read a few match reports of him playing and scoring with various Ireland youth teams, as well as scoring 4 goals in 2 days with the Arsenal reserves and U-17s, playing well with the likes of Wiltord and Kanu. He scored 4 goals in a youth cup game this season (included a clip of one of his goals), and was apparently headhunted by Man Utd. Who knows if he'll ever make the grade, but it shows Wenger & Arsenal's concern for building for the future. http://www.kaids.com/stuff/stokes.mpeg

// edit - seems Stokes has scored 19 goals in 25+4 (don't ask) games in the reserves/youths.

He was brillant in the Kennedy cup about 2/3 years ago . Won the tournament with Dublin district . I made the north tipp team the year after and all the lads that were on it the year before as well said he was unreal . He's definetly something special .( not olimpics )

The Muppet

Originally posted by sleepwalker
in fairness though that leaves alot of signings out such as kleberson, djemba-djemba, howard bellion and saha who all contribute as squad players which is a fair point considering your comparing it to reyes who at the moment is very much a squad player

so really I think everyone knows that United have greater spending power than Arsenal they just dont usually use it very recklessly like they have this season

honestly though as an arsenal fan I don't really care because I dont think United have ever really bought themselves to success

Fair comment Sleepwalker and TBH I was only using those stats as a counter to the argument that United bought their success which as you agree they have not. Its nice to have a rational contribution to an Arsenal/United Thread for a change, I hope its contagious.

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by The Muppet
Fair comment Sleepwalker and TBH I was only using those stats as a counter to the argument that United bought their success which as you agree they have not. Its nice to have a rational contribution to an Arsenal/United Thread for a change, I hope its contagious.

I dont think anyone said that United bought their success, and post a link up if im wrong, they just said United had greater spending power than Arsenal, which is true but you claimed was not. How many players have arsenal bought over 10M in their history? Henry, Wiltord, Reyes? Anyone else? Now what about United, Ronaldo, Saha, RvN, Ferdinand, Veron, a bit of a difference there.

mr_angry

Don't forget about the money Wenger has made from selling players on again. The £23m got from the sale of Anelka pretty much covers Henry and Wiltord's fees.

smemon

wenger is one of the best managers in the world. he's moulded arsenal into a top european side and made superstars out of nobodys.

as much as i hate arsenal's arrogance and big-headedness, their a fantastic footballing side. until they win the champions league and get some form of consistency in it reaching the later stages, they'll never be classed as a great side.

for all their wonderfull flair and tricks and intregate 1-2's and sharp, crisp passes, they let media attention go to their heads and get caught up in all the hype surrounding big games. if they'd keep their feet on the ground, stop lapping up all the media attention when they win and keep their heads down win lose or draw, maybe they'd go a little bit further and gain more fans along the way.

Jivin Turkey

If Arsenal went through the league unbeaten, I would consider them a great side. The team will be more successful in Europe in the future.