Immigration Referendum

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
The absence of statistics for the Coombe Hospital is interesting.

From the above, the other two hospitals are bigger.

However, the statistics show that in 2003, just 442 births in the two largest Dublin maternity hospitals were to non-EU nationals who either booked into the hospital late or arrived without booking at all.

Looks like pattern of:

(a) some women coming from the UK, giving birth and returning.
(b) some women coming from the within Ireland on short notice.
(c) some women coming from elsewhere whether (i) documented immigrants, (ii) refugees, (iii) economic migrants.
(d) longterm immigrants.

The minister seems to be lumping them all together,s o as to infalte the figures. Possible solutions (beofre reaching for a referendum) :

(a) bill them / their health insurance the full cost of an unscheduled delivery (maternity hospitals usually get 6-9 months notice of pregnancy patterns).
(b) send them back to their own health board area or bill that health board.
(c)(i) bill them / their health insurance the full cost of an unscheduled delivery as against a scheduled delivery.
(c)(ii) process the papers as with any other refugee.
(d) process the papers as with any other resident.

Originally posted by sceptre
Either the Sunday Independent or Irish Times is seeking to mislead.

Hmmm, which is generally considered the more reliable? The sensationalist "more scantily clad women than any other paper" SI or the IT?

arcadegame2004

"However, the statistics show that in 2003, just 442 births in the two largest Dublin maternity hospitals were to non-EU nationals who either booked into the hospital late or arrived without booking at all."

Yes but that does not include TOTAL births to femal asylum-seekers. This definition defines "late" as 30 weeks or after. My definition of citizenship tourists are ALL pregnant asylum seekers. Official figures show that 2,000 pregnant asylum-seekers arrived in this State in 2003.

arcadegame2004

Hey! You're only talking about births in DUBLIN!!!! What about the rest of the country? 442 is NOT the total number for the entire state.

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Hey! You're only talking about births in DUBLIN!!!! What about the rest of the country? 442 is NOT the total number for the entire state.

So, tell me what the figure is for the rest of the country, the minister seems to be hiding the number.

arcadegame2004

Firstly, for the proof that the Irish Times is only referring to those coming late in pregnancy:

"However, the statistics show that in 2003, just 442 births in the two largest Dublin maternity hospitals were to non-EU nationals who either booked into the hospital late or arrived without booking at all."

"Late" being the operative word. So it doesn't include either ALL Dublin births to asylum-seekers and definitely not the total for this state overall.

Now for the Sunday Independent quote:

" Last year asylum applications were received from 1,893 pregnant women."

. This is yesterdays Sunday Independent. It is Jim Cusacks column. I suggest you read it.

sceptre

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Yes but that does not include TOTAL births to femal asylum-seekers. This definition defines "late" as 30 weeks or after. My definition of citizenship tourists are ALL pregnant asylum seekers. Official figures show that 2,000 pregnant asylum-seekers arrived in this State in 2003.

No it doesn't and I see you're now waking up to the problem with all the statistics. The larger figure includes /all/ non-nationals who are having children here. It ioncludes bogus asylum seekers, it includes children of diplomats, it includes other non-EUnationals who are legally resident here including asylum seekers and refugees granted leave to stay as well as citizenship tourists. The figure of 2,670 includes all of these. The fuigure of 5,471 ("non-nationals as distinct from "non EU-nationals") also includes any mothers who are Spanish nationals, French nationals or any other EU country that also have a child here. What use are the figures then?

Highlighting again the January 2003 letter quoted in the Sunday Independent article, unless some of the letter is missing it's as easy to read it as highlighting that there are more people living in Dublin who are having babies and asking for resources. Is some of the letter missing? If some of the letter isn't missing then it's hard to read it as a tirade against non-nationals causing problems by having bairns here.

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Hey! You're only talking about births in DUBLIN!!!! What about the rest of the country? 442 is NOT the total number for the entire state.

The process continues. Good.

Leaving aside the probability that most people arriving in late pregnancy are arriving in Dublin, you've partly realised that all figures released so far are pretty damn useless.

Thanks, you've reached the point I hoped you would. Now we can move on, in the absence of any useful figures released by the Minister, realise that all figures released are worse than useless in that they're incomplete and cause people to make rash assumptions based on incomplete and misleading data and we may get to actually discuss the issue.

What you appear to have missed by the way is that the figures in the Sunday Independent actually just include Dublin in that figure of 5,471 for 2003. Do I get to go "Hey! You're only talking about births in DUBLIN!!!! What about the rest of the country?" at you now?:D

And I'll say it again: either the Indo or the Times is seeking to mislead. Everynoe gets to make up their own mind about which is more likely to be guilty.

Move on, you're not going to get anywhere through touting incomplete figures.

arcadegame2004

Quote from Jim Cusacks article in yesterday's Sunday Independent:

" Last year asylum applications were received from 1,893 pregnant women. "

There.

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Quote from Jim Cusacks article in yesterday's Sunday Independent: " Last year asylum applications were received from 1,893 pregnant women. "There.

Wahoo, congratulations, you can repeat your posts. :P How many of these women were granted asylum? How many subsequently left? How many remained? Does this represent every such case in the country, a minority or a majority? Are these people "citizen tourists"? Are they pregnant on arrival or do they make the application later on? How many of these people are from countries that are joining the EU next Saturday? Is this situation actually a material financial burden on the state or is it a purely medical safety matter? Is there a way to deal with the situation other than by referendum?

From here: http://www.cso.ie/principalstats/cennat.html#nationality

Persons, males and females, usually resident and present in the State on Census night classified by nationality 2002

Total Irish 3,584,975
Non Irish 224,261

Persons, males and females, usually resident and present in the State on Census night, classified by place of birth 2002
Birthplace
Ireland (Republic) 3,458,479
Outside Ireland (Republic) 400,016

It looks like Irish people have the habit of being born elsewhere.

PS Jim Cusack is well known for articles "syspathetic" to the authoriites (not doubt to help his sources).

arcadegame2004

Surely even you are not seriously suggesting that Irish people are applying for asylum. This referendum amendment, if passed (which is likely) will still allow citizenship automatically if one of your parents is Irish. On the "how many were granted asylum" issue, the deportation rate was 5% of asylum seekers in 2003, which is pathetic and shows that probably none were deported.

vorbis

i think some people are getting a bit lost with the figures. Should we leave a loophole open even if the figures are small? This referendum has been amazing in the sense that very few people are actually campaigning for a no. Most dissenters are voicing concerns over the timing of it or the amount of people exploiting the loophole. Its quite an odd way to discuss it if you think about it.

de5p0i1er

Originally posted by zedsDeadBaby
What happens to the child if they are born here and deemed not to be an Irish citizen because of this?
What if the parents country also has a law to say that not being born there means you are not a citizen? Or is this even possible?
Are they a non-any-national.
A citezen of the world?

We have enough to worry about in this country without them.

jerenaugrim

The proposed amendment is wrong. Vote No.

capistrano

Originally posted by jerenaugrim
The proposed amendment is wrong. Vote No.

Wow, I'm overcome by the power of your reasoned argument. I'm changing my vote to no :rolleyes:

arcadegame2004

You're right vorbis. The principle of the thing is also important. Althought the numbers are definitely not tiny. I was listenin to Pat Rabbitte today on the Today programmed trying to explain the hypocrisy of Labour writing a letter to Bertie in 1998 on the importance of preventing automatic citizenship for children of asylum-seekers coming here and was quiet honestly less convinced by either him or by Ho Chi Quinn when he got to speak. Labour call for a calm debate when it suits them then when the debate doesn't go there way our come the howls of "racist". I am amused that they think you have to be 32 weeks pregnant when you arrive in Ireland to be a citizenship-tourist. 500 people were deported last year as illegal immigrants, representing 5% of asylum-seekers in 2003. At that rate ANY pregnant asylum-seeker knows the chances of them actually being removed from this country prior to giving birth is zilch. 440 is a incorrect figure, derived by excluding the vast majority of pregnant asylum seekers. 1893 were pregnant on arrival in our state according to Department of Justice figures. Labour magically reduces this number to 440 by saying that you have to be pregnant for 32 weeks or it doesn't count as a way of getting citizenship. This is absurd, especially when you remember the lack of sex-education in the Third World. Many females may not even know how long a pregnancy usually lasts.

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Many females may not even know how long a pregnancy usually lasts.

:rolleyes:

Wrestlemania

I truly hope this bill will be passed as there is truly to many illegal aliens in this country abusing the system. Especially Nigerians, Eastern Europeans and Persons from the far east.

We will in time become the minority in our own country otherwise.

The Good Friday agreement has been abused by the above persons and the founding fathers of this state and the troubles will be all in vain because of the leeching illegal aliens in this country.

Because of this "lovely immigration problem" we have I have lost a close family member so hopefully it will be put in reverse and if possible widespread mass deportation back to there countries of origin...

arcadegame2004

So the Human Rights Commission warn that the proposed amendment may be illegal under International law.

So every other country in Europe must be breaking the law then!

Victor

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
I truly hope this bill will be passed as there is truly to many illegal aliens in this country abusing the system.

Pity this amendment won't do anything about it then.

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
... Eastern Europeans .....

Better chuck them out before Friday so they can re-enter by right on Saturday.

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Persons from the far east.

Pity that we will loose a fortune in language schools.

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
We will in time become the minority in our own country otherwise.

Are you really sure on this? When do you expect it to happen?

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
The Good Friday agreement has been abused by the above persons

You mean availed of? Or do you (personally) exploit the tax system by availing of tax credits?

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
and the founding fathers of this state

Would that include the British ones and the Cuban American-Irish guy who became Taoiseach and President?

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
the troubles

I thought the Troubles were against an "occupying army" not against a people?

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
vain

How so?

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
leeching illegal aliens in this country.

Do you mean the ones who work long hours on minimum wage or less?

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Because of this "lovely immigration problem" we have I have lost a close family member

Sorry for your loss, but how would this referendum have prevented it?

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
it will be put in reverse

Wahooo! Back to the good old days of poverty and emigration. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
if possible widespread mass deportation back to there countries of origin...

Sounds awfully "ethnic cleansing"-like.

Victor

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0427/citizenship.html

Citizenship poll may be unlawful: Commission

27 April 2004 19:35
The Human Rights Commission has said that the proposed amendment to the Constitution on citizenship may be unlawful under international law.

In a preliminary observation the commission said that the referendum, if passed, would create a new category of non-citizen and raised significant issues relating to human rights.

The commission, which was set up under the Good Friday Agreement, also said it was not convinced there was a need to restrict the rights of some people.

It said that the Government had not demonstrated any justification for singling out one category of citizens with 'no substantial connection to Ireland' upon which to impose restrictions as to citizenship entitlements.

Earlier this month, the president of the commission, Maurice Manning, wrote to the Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, expressing concern about aspects of the proposed referendum and the short timeframe available to consider it.

arcadegame2004

quote:

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Originally posted by Wrestlemania
I truly hope this bill will be passed as there is truly to many illegal aliens in this country abusing the system.

---

Pity this amendment won't do anything about it then. (Victor)

---

Oh yes it will. 58% of female asylum-seekers in every year since the GFA passed have been pregnant when they arrived in this country. They are coming here specifically to get citizenship for their children, and - they hope - a more sympathetic hearing from the powers that be on the parents' own asylum-claims.

The current system represents a blank-cheque to anyonw that decides to come and live here. The Irish taxpayer deserves better.

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Oh yes it will. 58% of female asylum-seekers in every year since the GFA passed have been pregnant when they arrived in this country. They are coming here specifically to get citizenship for their children, and - they hope - a more sympathetic hearing from the powers that be on the parents' own asylum-claims. The current system represents a blank-cheque to anyonw that decides to come and live here. The Irish taxpayer deserves better.

I'm sorry you seem mistaken, the amendment doesn't affect anyone in this country before June 11.

arcadegame2004

Well at the very least it will deter many in future years. And the saving to the Irish taxpayer from what would otherwise be the case will be immense.

AngelofFire

The most sickening xenophobic element in this proposed change to the constitution is the fact that people from Norn Iron will be able to come in and avail of certain priveledges whereas people from other countries like the czech republic and romania will not.

Victor

Originally posted by AngelofFire
The most sickening xenophobic element in this proposed change to the constitution is the fact that people from Norn Iron will be able to come in and avail of certain priveledges

Nope. They'll be able to do it from their living rooms.

jerenaugrim

Originally posted by capistrano
Wow, I'm overcome by the power of your reasoned argument. I'm changing my vote to no :rolleyes:

Reasoned argument is irrelevant when it comes to a proposed amendment as unreasonable and patently wrong as this one is.

Glad I convinced you, tho':D

arcadegame2004

"The most sickening xenophobic element in this proposed change to the constitution is the fact that people from Norn Iron will be able to come in and avail of certain priveledges whereas people from other countries like the czech republic and romania will not."
(AngelofFire)

AngelofFire, at least people born in NI of parents born there have a clear connection with this country, unlike 99% of persons from the other countries you mention, among others. We cannot have open-ended criteria for deciding who gets in here. Non-national immigration to the Republic equals over 1% per annum and has already created a context in which 6% are non-Irish, according to the census. With a likely increase in immigration from Eastern Europe after enlargement, this % could rise and unless we crack down on the abuses within the asylum system, I believe a previous posters remark that non-Irish people could outnumber Irish people in the Republic of Ireland is not far-fetched in the slightest. We must be vigilant.jerenaugrim you post typifies the "No" campaign generally in terms of substance of your argument and that is why this amendment will likely be passed.

jerenaugrim

I don't think the referendum will be passed. I think it's extraordinary and obnoxious that the conception of citizenship that was overwhelmingly approved in both parts of Ireland five years ago is now being proposed for amendment. Do the proponents of this amendment think the people of Ireland are so dim that we did not give serious, prolonged thought when we voted, five years ago? Sure, there are abuses of the system, but these can be dealt with without messing around, putting qualifications into the open-hearted conception of citizenship that we have already approved. That last post there reeks of fear- oh no, we're going to be swamped! Well, we aren't, and we need immigration. This proposed amendment will be defeated, I firmly believe that. I, as someone who loves this country and its people, would be very surprised if the amendment was approved.

BuffyBot

Do the proponents of this amendment think the people of Ireland are so dim that we did not give serious, prolonged thought when we voted, five years ago?

I'd imagine quite a lot of people gave it little or no thought, having not been able to see the future and take in to consideration this issues being discussed now before casting their vote.

capistrano

It is my understanding that anyone born in Ireland before the GFA were citizens. However, this was granted by law not by the constitution. We are just returning to the situation where the elected parliament (the oireachtas) can legislate for nationality rights.

People voted for the consitution changes in the GFA to support peace in NI. I would guess that almost noone could forsee the problems of putting locking citizenship rights into the constitution.

arcadegame2004

"I don't think the referendum will be passed. I think it's extraordinary and obnoxious that the conception of citizenship that was overwhelmingly approved in both parts of Ireland five years ago is now being proposed for amendment. Do the proponents of this amendment think the people of Ireland are so dim that we did not give serious, prolonged thought when we voted, five years ago? Sure, there are abuses of the system, but these can be dealt with without messing around, putting qualifications into the open-hearted conception of citizenship that we have already approved. That last post there reeks of fear- oh no, we're going to be swamped! Well, we aren't, and we need immigration. This proposed amendment will be defeated, I firmly believe that. I, as someone who loves this country and its people, would be very surprised if the amendment was approved."

(jerenaugrim)

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Then prepare to be very surprised. This poll is almost exactly the same in result terms as the Millward/Brown poll in the Irish Independent some weeks ago. When we (including me then 18) voted for the GFA we did so on the understanding that it was for the benefit of NI Nationalists. We could not have predicted then that the system would instead be abused by illegal immigrants. I voted Yes back then and will vote Yes to this poll. We are NOT violating the GFA if we pass this. It is Article 9 we are changing NOT Articles 2 and 3. Article 9 will say that you are not automatically entitled to be born into Irish citizenship unless you have a parent born on the island of Ireland. As such, NI Nationalists will retain Irish citizenship, as the GFA intended. The actual word citizenship doesn't even appear in the predent Articles 2 and 3 anyway.

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Victor your reference to the Human Rights Commission's claims that this amendment may be illegal flies in the face of the fact that NO other European country allowa automatic citizenship solely on the basis of being born there. So if we would be breaking International Law by saying that you cant get automatic citizenship via birth here without an Irish parent, then so too must ALL the rest of the EU since that is already their legal positions with respect to births in their countries. I note that the head of the Commission is Maurice Manning, until recently the FG leader in the Seanad. I suspect that he is just playing politics, something his role is not for, He should concentrate on genuine human-rights issues and divorce himself from his former habits. This issue is of great importance. Irish taxpayers are currently forced to pay a black cheque to ANY non-EU national that wants to come here to get pregnant. That is NOT on. The Irish taxpayer will tolerate this no more. Our public-services and road-building program need this money. How many hospitals could you build with the €350 million currently spent on the problem of illegal migrants. They tear up their travel documents before arriving here and that is why so few are deported.