Immigration Referendum

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I suspect that he is just playing politics,

And the minister isn't?

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Irish taxpayers are currently forced to pay a black cheque to ANY non-EU national that wants to come here to get pregnant

I think you know this isn't true.

capistrano

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Irish taxpayers are currently forced to pay a black cheque to ANY non-EU national that wants to come here to get pregnant.

"Black cheque" - Freudian slip?

dathi1

I think you know this isn't true.

I think we all know its very true.... who pays for non working so called "asylum seeker" Health care, Housing (accommodation ), Bin collection, Taxi fares where transport is not "readily available Driving licence tuition and so on and so on????The Eastern Health Board....WE DO!! The refugee council of Ireland and the rest of those quangos certainly don't.

Victor

I think if you note that he says they get the cheque first, so 'they' can come here, which isn't true.

arcadegame2004

I meant to say "blank cheque".

arcadegame2004

If an Irish person/couple that can't afford their own home applies to get on the local-authority housing-list, they end up having to wait for possibly years and even then they must pay rent to the council. But if your an asylum-seeker you are put at the front of the queue and don't even have to pay any rent. We, the taxpayers of Ireland, pay it for them!!!! They have more rights than us in many areas.

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
If an Irish person/couple that can't afford their own home applies to get on the local-authority housing-list,

These people are typically entitled to Rent Allowance and have *some* accommodation.

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
But if your an asylum-seeker

These people tend to have *no* accommodation and it is only families that are moved to the head of the list with other, Irish, families.

dathi1

These people tend to have *no* accommodation and it is only families that are moved to the head of the list with other, Irish, families.

Can you give me instances where so called "asylum seekers" have *no* accommodation?

Victor

Originally posted by dathi1
Can you give me instances where so called "asylum seekers" have *no* accommodation?

I'm not sure on this, but maybe the ones that have just come off a plane or boat? [/sarcasm]

MrPudding

If they were not given local authority houses you would be complaining more. When they arrive they, quite naturally, have nowhere to stay. So they will typically be put up temporary accommodation. This can be very expensive, we can be talking B&Bs here. It makes sound economic sense to put these people into local authority housing as soon as possible as it is so much cheaper. I appreciate that is annoying for the local looking for the houses but it makes a lot of sense.

Oh and by the way, I am from the North (and I don’t mean Swords) and my GF is from France. Our second child was born in the Coombe 15 months ago. I am sorry to say but we have contributed to the non-national birth statistics.

MrP

arcadegame2004

MrPudding, if this amendment is passed (Article 9) then you will still have rights to Irish citizenship. As your child has one parent born on this island, he/she also gets Irish citizenship. This amendment removes automatic rights of Irish citizenship from future children born in Ireland that have NO parent born on this island. So you didn't contribute to the statistics. And anyway, France is richer than Ireland so there's no comparison with the pull-factor that Ireland represents to poor countries' populations.

jerenaugrim

Originally posted by capistrano
"Black cheque" - Freudian slip?

I think so

Re- Asylum seekers- the process is very rigourous. I work with a refugee, so I know all about it. The point I would make is that he, having been given asylum here, is extremely grateful to Ireland, and therefore we have gained a good citizen. As for bogus asylum seekers (and I've worked with a few of them too), their general attitude is, easy come, easy go. Chancers who get deported will just try somewhere else.

MrPudding

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
So you didn't contribute to the statistics.

Regardless of what I may or may not be, my GF is a non-national. Therefore our child was born to a non-national, therefore makes up part of the stastistics. You see this is the risk with this kind of thing.

I work in IT I know loads of foreign people and loads of people having kids. They are non-nationals. These births are being used to scare people into voting for this nasty law. Do not say this is not the case. People here are quoting that stats and the stats are bull****.

MrP

arcadegame2004

MrPudding, having ONE Irish parent will still be sufficient to get Irish citizenship. What this referendum is about stopping is the automatic awarding of citizenship for children born here with NO Irish parent. If we do not change our citizenship laws then the system will continue being abused by non-EU nationals who are coming here specifically to get a baby here in order to secure citizenship for their babies and hopefully themselves by emotional blackmail of the State. Your GF is French and is therefore an EU citizen. As such she is entitled to residency here so how materially does this affect you or her?

arcadegame2004

"this nasty law." (Mr.Pudding).

Then the rest of Europe also has a "nasty law" because we are simply bringing our citizenship-laws into line with theirs.

Cork

We are simply bringing our citizenship-laws into line with other countries in the EU.

Abuses of citizen tourists will stop.

This is long over due.

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
MrPudding, having ONE Irish parent will still be sufficient to get Irish citizenship. What this referendum is about stopping is the automatic awarding of citizenship for children born here with NO Irish parent. If we do not change our citizenship laws then the system will continue being abused by non-EU nationals who are coming here specifically to get a baby here in order to secure citizenship for their babies and hopefully themselves by emotional blackmail of the State. Your GF is French and is therefore an EU citizen. As such she is entitled to residency here so how materially does this affect you or her?

So your figure of 2000 is probably utterly bogus - how many of those babies cna claim *one* Irish parent?

Villain

FYI

From Breaking news.ie

The Referendum Commission has been allocated €4m, ahead of the forthcoming Citizenship vote.

The Commission is charged with explaining the subject matter to those eligible to vote, as simply and effectively as possible.

As well as promoting public awareness, it will encourage the electorate to vote in the poll.

The Commission is currently preparing a detailed information booklet on the referendum proposals, which will be distributed nationwide.

arcadegame2004

"So your figure of 2000 is probably utterly bogus - how many of those babies cna claim *one* Irish parent?"(Victor)

None probably, because that 2000 figure relates to the number of female asylum-seekers who were already pregnant when arriving here. I derive the 2000 figure from the Department of Justice figures that 1,893 pregnant women claimed asylum in the Republic of Ireland in 2003, plus those who have babies in NI before travelling south to claim Irish citizenship for their children.

Victor, if I were you I'd read today's Irish Examiner in which there is an article showing that the Nigerian President Olusegun Obasanjo told Bertie Ahern that Ireland's births for citizenship rule was widely known of worldwide and was being abused, and asks why Bertie hasn't changed them.

MrPudding

Arcadegame2004, you seem to be missing my point. I am not in the least bit worried about the nationality of my children. One was born here and one in the north and both have the choice of 3 nationalities. I was simply pointing out that his birth would have contributed to the non-national birth statistics. In this respect my nationality is irrelevent it iss that of the mother.

The statistics that were used to justify this vote were not the numbers of non-nationals born in ireland, cos that would be zero. It was the number of children born to non-national parents. My son mother is French, a non national, therefore he was born to a non-national parent.

Why do children born in the North have to travel south to claim citizenship?

MrP

arcadegame2004

This link http://www.justice.ie/802569B20047F...eb/wpMJDE5WZMEU proves that 1,893 pregnant women claimed asylum in the Republic of Ireland in 2003. ASYLUM-SEEKERS. The number of non-national births here in 2003 was around 4500. So you see? I am distinguishing between the two. The link also proves that in 2003, 57% of female asylum-seekers arriving here were pregnant on arrival. Go to the part of the page headed "Figures for Pregnant Female Asylum Seekers" to see this proof.

The figures for pregnant asylum-seekers alone justify this referendum. We are bringing our law into line with the rest of Europe.

MrPudding

My point was and has been all along that one of the excuses given by the minister for justice was the pleading of the masters of the maternity hospitals. What I was saying was the figure used here included kids like my son who was born to a non-national but should not be used as an excuse for a referendum.

Regardless of the figures, I still find it hard to have a problem with women wanting to have children here. Put yourself in their shoes what would you do?

As a matter of interest, is there any evidence that having a child who is an Irish citizen has prevented any deportations since last years ruling? Why do we have to come into line with the rest of Europe? What are they doing so much better that we have to follow? I like the idea that any child born here is Irish. To be honest I wouldn’t really care if it did mean the parents could stay.

Given that this is my opinion I doubt very much that we will be able to agree. And to be honest that makes me quite happy.

capistrano

Originally posted by MrPudding
To be honest I wouldn’t really care if it did mean the parents could stay.

Just to be a bit mad and bring that scenario to an extreme. What if say 100,000 or even more, non-EU nationals started coming to Ireland every year to have a baby becasue they knew that it would mean the while family could stay. I know it's a bit wild, but would you still not care?

Rev Hellfire

Originally posted by capistrano
Just to be a bit mad and bring that scenario to an extreme. What if say 100,000 or even more, non-EU nationals started coming to Ireland every year to have a baby becasue they knew that it would mean the while family could stay. I know it's a bit wild, but would you still not care?

Wow I like it, maybe when they all come over here, I'll sneek over to their land while they're all here and claim it for myself, Revlanduna it shall be the jewel in africas crown, and I'll have a strict non-asylum seekers policy.

arcadegame2004

"As a matter of interest, is there any evidence that having a child who is an Irish citizen has prevented any deportations since last years ruling?" (MrPudding)

Well the 5% deportation rate gives a good indication methinks.

Victor

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
This link http://www.justice.ie/802569B20047F...eb/wpMJDE5WZMEU

Linky brokey. PS How many stayed?

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
The number of non-national births here in 2003 was around 4500.

source?

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Well the 5% deportation rate gives a good indication methinks.

The referendum will do nothing about this.

arcadegame2004

"quote:

---

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Well the 5% deportation rate gives a good indication methinks.

---

The referendum will do nothing about this. (Victor) "

---

The point I am making is that the current rate of deportation is so slow that pregnant illegal-immigrants, even in early pregnancy, stand virtually no chance of being deported from Ireland. As such, I disagree with the "No" campaign's view that only pregnant asylum-seekers at least 32 weeks pregnant are citizenship tourists. It is this aritficial 32 week barrier that leads them to calaculate that only 440 citizenship tourists came to Ireland last year. By the way, the link does work keep trying I read it earlier today it definitely states that 1,893 pregnant women claimed asylum last year in this state.

arcadegame2004

Victor the link I gave for some reason works on page 2 or 3 of this thread. Go back there and click on it and it will work. I too am finding that it only comes up when I click on it from the post of page 2 or 3 of this thread, where a different poster gave this link.

arcadegame2004

Victor, I have just checked. You can read it if you go to http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=152567&perpage=10&pagenumber=2

READ ai_ing's post and then click on the link he gives. It is the same as my link, except for some reason it only works when I go to his link for it. When the linked page comes up, scroll down the page till you get to ""Figures for Pregnant Female Asylum Seekers" and you will see proof of 1,893 pregnant women claiming asylum here in 2003.

BuffyBot

The referendum will do nothing about this.

Do not think it would discourage the people from coming here?

I doubt many of the people coming here pregnant know that it doesn't automatically give them the right to stay in Ireland.