Immigration Referendum

silverside

Its not racially motivated. Its aimed at stopping large numbers of people from far-off lands taking advantage of our system. Of course these people are not rich white and well educated because if they were they would rather stay in their own country.

I think political correctness is going too far. There is obviously a potential problem if we are the only country in EU to give automatic citizenship to all born here. If we want to close that off we are accused of being racist. Surely as a country we are entitled to decide who we want living here. If looking after our own first and foremost makes me a racist then OK I'm a racist.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by silverside
If looking after our own first and foremost makes me a racist then OK I'm a racist.

Can you tell me how I will be "protecting our own" if I vote yes in the referendum?
I seriously cannot see any benefit to changing the constitution, what am I missing?

AngelofFire

Originally posted by silverside
. If looking after our own first and foremost makes me a racist then OK I'm a racist.

it actually does make you a racist cos your proposed "looking after your own" and not care about others is a descriminatory against other ethnic groups

silverside

It will mean that fewer people from XXXia will be coming here pregnant taking advantage of our health services on the hope that since their baby will be a citizen they will have some rights that they otherwise wouldn't have. The masters of the Coombe and Rotunda certainly seem to think there is a problem, as well as other reports. OK I dont have facts and figures to hand but there does seem to be a problem there.

silverside

AngelOfFire,
you have to draw the line somewhere. Do you propose we open our borders and let anyone we want live here and give out Irish passports to anyone who fills in an application form? If so, good luck and see how long our society and economy hold up, If not, please tell us where you would draw the line.

AngelofFire

there is no evidence that immigrants come here merely to abuse our system. read my previous posts

Villain

Originally posted by AngelofFire
there is no evidence that immigrants come here merely to abuse our system. read my previous posts

lol, where I live there is a very large number of immigrants, all driving cars living in nice houses etc etc and how many do I see working?

Very fuc king few, I have no problem with immigrants coming here and working and paying tax's like me.

What I do have a problem is with me working and paying tax's to supply them.


Only racist against lazy bastards who won't get a job, IMHO if they are here more than 3 months and haven't got a job they should be thrown out of the country.

capistrano

Originally posted by AngelofFire
both of my parents are english. i was born in this country i love this country i consider myself to be irish. nobody should have the right to cast me from the land where i was born.

Fear not, AngelofFire, as the UK is an EU member you would still be able to get Irish citizenship after being resident for a few years. Even before EU times UK citizens could live in Ireland and become Irish citizens after a period of time.

nobody comes here with the intention of having children so that they can get citizenship those claims are as narrow as the claims that teenage girls get pregnant to get themselves on the housing list. assylum seekers come here to escape persescution and have no idea about articles in the constituiton allowing their children to become citizens.

That's just pure naivete! So you imagine that it's pure coincidnece that 57% of female asylum seekers over 16 arrive in this country pregnant. That asylum seekers in the UK, 8.5 months pregnant, travel to Ireland to have their children just because of our fabulous health service. The masters of the maternity hospitals did say a large number of women arrive without any ante-natal visits at all. You sure have an active imagination, AngelofFire.

We have a responsibility to our European partners. Being an Irish citizen allows you to live and work in any ofthe 25 EU countries. I agree, we should have a proper immigration regime where people can apply to live andwork in Ireland and after a number of years become citizens. Because we don't have such a regime everybody shows up claiming they were persecuted at home. And frankly, there isn't much persecution in Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Nigeria and the other countries where our asylum seekers come from.

It understandable that people from very poor countries should want to come here and make a better live for themselves and their families but it can't be a free for all. We need a system.[/B][/QUOTE]

silverside

OK we could argue about this for a long time but I believe that there are a large number of heavily pregnant women who come to Ireland just before giving birth, because of our current citizenship laws. If you don't believe that that is fair enough, I am not going to go digging out statistics. I think most people agree with me that there is a flaw at the moment and that that will be remedied in this referendum.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by silverside
It will mean that fewer people from XXXia will be coming here pregnant taking advantage of our health services on the hope that since their baby will be a citizen they will have some rights that they otherwise wouldn't have.

At the moment, because of the supreme court ruling last year, they do not have an advantage when applying for residence/asylum if their child is Irish.

The masters of the Coombe and Rotunda certainly seem to think there is a problem, as well as other reports

Those reports seem to be getting used out of context, the people behind the quotes seem to be distancing themselves. Bottom line, there's no clear evidence to support the arguement for the referendum.

I hope when the time comes and there's a referendum that will effect all of us Irish citizens, people won't be so flippant about changing our constitution.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by silverside
I think most people agree with me that there is a flaw at the moment and that that will be remedied in this referendum.

It won't be "remedied" if it's passed.
There's some unspecified law(s) that need to be passed too I believe.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by irish1
lol, where I live there is a very large number of immigrants, all driving cars living in nice houses etc etc and how many do I see working?

Do you have them all under surveillance?
This referendum won't stop people (if they are) abusing the social welfare system or working illegally.
I see the government's target audience is getting the message from this campaign.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by capistrano
Fear not, AngelofFire, as the UK is an EU member you would still be able to get Irish citizenship after being resident for a few years. Even before EU times UK citizens could live in Ireland and become Irish citizens after a period of time.

thats not good enough i was born here and i feel as irish as seamus o maolcathaigh who has red hair and freckles and many other people born of foreign parents feel the same way. why should we be less entitled to citizenship

capistrano

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
It won't be "remedied" if it's passed.
There's some unspecified law(s) that need to be passed too I believe.

The law is not "unspecified", as you say, it's actually been published.

It just say that one of your parents should have been legally resident in Ireland for 3 years (or 3 out of 5 or something like that) to the child born in Ireland to be entitled to Irish citizenship.

Try to keep up.

Villain

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Do you have them all under surveillance?
This referendum won't stop people (if they are) abusing the social welfare system or working illegally.
I see the government's target audience is getting the message from this campaign.

lol,

Don't try and patronise me, it's a small area so trust me I know.

It won't stop them currently doing it but it might stop a few more coming over and doing the same.

Oh and as I already said

What I do have a problem is with me working and paying tax's to supply them.

Only racist against lazy bastards who won't get a job, IMHO if they are here more than 3 months and haven't got a job they should be thrown out of the country.

capistrano

Originally posted by AngelofFire
thats not good enough i was born here and i feel as irish as seamus o maolcathaigh who has red hair and freckles and many other people born of foreign parents feel the same way. why should we be less entitled to citizenship

But I just said that you will still be entitled to Irish citizenship.

Let me put it another way, say you and the missus went off on holidays to Switzerland, Saudi Arabia, Japan, whereever, and while you were there had a sprog. Do you think said sprog should automatically be entitled to Swiss, Saudi, Japanese, or whatever, citizenship? Well, whatever you think, they wouldn't have a prayer.

Villain

Originally posted by AngelofFire
thats not good enough i was born here and i feel as irish as seamus o maolcathaigh who has red hair and freckles and many other people born of foreign parents feel the same way. why should we be less entitled to citizenship

Not if your parents come here from far away for the sole purpose of making you an Irish Citizen

If they wish to re-locate here and join the community and contribute to the Economy not drain it then fair enough.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by irish1
It won't stop them currently doing it but it might stop a few more coming over and doing the same.

Wasn't trying to patronise, just messing
I don't think it would stop them tbh, wouldn't tackling whatever failings in the social welfare system or whatever that's letting them get away with it not be a better idea?

Chaz

A simple cure. Put a minimum stay period. If the child is born 10 months AFTER the mother has arrive in the country - then give citizenship - not before.
This means that the mother conceived in Ireland. On top of that - other restrictions could be placed to offset the 'get rich quick types' that are screwing the system.

Ive personally been in Ireland for nearly 18 months - my wife 12 months. I pay tax, have a PPS number. I would only see it natural to have my next child, and for him to be Irish. The issue at hand is - what happens when my Visa is perhaps not approved for another period etc etc?

Villain

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Wasn't trying to patronise, just messing
I don't think it would stop them tbh, wouldn't tackling whatever failings in the social welfare system or whatever that's letting them get away with it not be a better idea?

Well thats a different argument, one that needs to be examined do in a big way, but once they arrive the government feels obliged to assist them.

Just one little story:

A friend of mine had a child about 2 years ago, she's living with her sister in a small flat, she's been on the council's house waiting list since the child was born she still hasn't got one, a family of immigrants arrived in town about a year ago, they were in a flat for a while then got a council house.

Now my friend had worked full-time for about 3 years before she got pregant and now works part-time, none of that immigrant family work!!:mad: :mad:

capistrano

Originally posted by Chaz
Ive personally been in Ireland for nearly 18 months - my wife 12 months. I pay tax, have a PPS number. I would only see it natural to have my next child, and for him to be Irish. The issue at hand is - what happens when my Visa is perhaps not approved for another period etc etc?

Firstly, welcome to Ireland. If I understand the proposal, then if you're three years legally in the country then your children will be entitled to Irish citizenship. Indeed I think Ireland should offer folks like yourself permanent residency. We need more workers. We just have to put a proper system in place so that people can apply from their home countires.

capistrano

Originally posted by irish1
Well thats a different argument, one that needs to be examined do in a big way, but once they arrive the government feels obliged to assist them.

Well, it would be cruel just to let them beg on the streets. The state would say that your friend (or was it sister) already had somewhere to stay whereas the immigrant family did not.

Whatever we do, we still have to treat people with human dignity.

Villain

Originally posted by capistrano
Well, it would be cruel just to let them beg on the streets. The state would say that your friend (or was it sister) already had somewhere to stay whereas the immigrant family did not.

Whatever we do, we still have to treat people with human dignity.

Oh agreed, but there was nothing wrong with their flat so why should they get a council house before her??

Anyway thats off topic, I think people should have to be resident here for a few years before their newborn is given Citzenship.

capistrano

Originally posted by irish1
I think people should have to be resident here for a few years before their newborn is given Citzenship.

So do I.

Anyway, I'm surprised that the majority sentiment on this is for the change. Normally in political threads on boards most people take up a very pinko-lefty position, which would be against the change.

Glad to see, for once, I'm part of the moral majority!

Villain

Originally posted by capistrano
So do I.

Anyway, I'm surprised that the majority sentiment on this is for the change. Normally in political threads on boards most people take up a very pinko-lefty position, which would be against the change.

Glad to see, for once, I'm part of the moral majority!

Yea, I'd even be considered a lefty because of my support for SF, but I think this makes sense, I can see how people can argue against it but I think a Yes vote is the right one in this case and I can see it passing very easily

ferdi

the people who say that the people who are going to vote 'yes' in this Referendum are racist are idiots.

capistrano

Originally posted by ferdi
the people who say that the people who are going to vote 'yes' in this Referendum are racist are idiots.

There is nothing more certain than that the Irish people will vote yes, and I'm guessing by a 2-1 margin. Does that make us all "racists and idiots"?

I take it you're not a racist, but I wouldn't be too sure about the idiot part.

ferdi

you are a fool.

this is what i was saying:


Mr X: "how will you be voting in this Referendum, Mr Y ?"

Mr Y: "i will be voting yes."

Mr X: "voting yes?! - you are a racist"


conclusion - Mr X is an idiot.

capistrano

Oops. I misread your statement. I read "... racists and idiots" not "... racists are idiots". Unfortunatley that one little word gave the sentance a whole new meaning. Sorry.

MadsL

I just have to vent on this.

I have been here 7 years and almost want to naturalise just so that I can vote in this referendum. Despite the years of tax and being a legal resident, I cannot have my say as to the future of a country that is now home to me.

I came to this country when my gf of the time was pregnant (she is Irish), we had a child and eventually split up fairly amicable and I continued to see my child when I was not working - usual story. I Thank whatever powers there are that I am an EU citizen...but were I from anywhere else;

1. I would need to renew my work permit every year in order to remain here with my child. I was made redundant not so long ago, and would have probably been told that I should look for work in another country.
2. I would not have the freedom to change job (work permits are tied to the employer).
3. I could be deported if the Gvt changed policy.
4. I would have NO automatic right of entry to the country, even if it were just to see my kid.
All in all I probably now would have no way to see my kid - were I not an Eu passport holder.

Now I'm shortly getting married to an American, let me tell you her story.

She was nearly deported after also being made redundant. Despite having shown proof of assets to tide her over for the next ten years in the country, possessing private health care, having paid more tax than the average salary in the last tax year, and shown proof that she had been offered a well-paid job with a work-permit, she was told "We are no longer offering work-permits" and "We can deport you if you like" when we asked what the process was for appeal. There is no process as it turns out. We got this resolved with a call to an immigration lawyer, who called Garda Immigration. Others, without access to lawyers are told "Write to the minister" - There is no appeals process.

How do we feel after this? Pretty disgusted...
Our countries, UK and America, offered work to Irish emigrees for generations. That is not to say that they were saints about it, I accept that times were hard and the Irish suffered violence, racism and exploitation. But the Irish fought they way to a better life. Just like every one of these people you now spit on with this 'immigration problem' - your great-grandparents and their parents would be so proud of the way you all have such a welcome for those trying to make a better life for themselves.
Those of you who so glibly want to kick out the people who have travelled to the very edge of europe and want to contribute to society, raise their kids here, and most of all just have a chance. Your emigree ancestors would be so proud.

I challenge you to take a trip to the Garda Immigration office and talk to anyone you meet there and ask them to tell you their or their families story. I'll bet it will not be too different to the tale your cousins in America will tell about how they ended up in Boston, MA.

This country need immigrants, you cannot compete on the global stage with a tiny population, build Ireland into a modern nation, be brave and take the chance that immigrants may help your to future economic security - at the moment this country is being failed, losing out to Bangalore, the only dotcom advantage that we ever had was that we were CHEAP! We need cheap labour, we need people sweeping our streets, cleaning toilets - all the stuff YOU don't want to do. I pray for indian corner shops - because at least then I might get some service, and diversity in the food I can buy. I pray for Lituanian waitresses who might just have some manners when I am eating out, instead of the snotty Dalkey girl just paying for her Ibiza holiday.

There's a famous monologue in 25th hour where Ed Norton rants against the whole ethnicity of New York, f^ck you etc read it here
At the end of which having heaped scorn on every immigrant in New York, he realises that his problems are of his own making.

I sit here in a country with f^ckd up infrastructure, economy, tax system, corruption, legal system, roads, insurance, etc etc jeez the list goes on. Who will I blame? Ah, yes - immigrants.

If this referendum goes through, hang your heads in shame. You will have spit upon yourselves, denied your history and allowed your politicians to once again deflect blame to those least able to speak up for themselves. Shame. Shame. Shame on you.