Immigration Referendum

MadsL

BTW you need another option in the poll.

Prevented from voting, because paying taxes, legal resident status, and Irish child are not enough grounds to allow me a voice in the future of the nation.

corley

Originally posted by irish1

Only racist against lazy bastards who won't get a job, IMHO if they are here more than 3 months and haven't got a job they should be thrown out of the country. [/B]

This quote merely displays how government policies are reinforcing negative attitudes towards people who have come here for asylum.

People who are waiting for their asylum claim to be assessed (which could take years) cannot work because of government regulations. While some asylum-seekers are relatively uneducated others were doctors, lawyers etc. in their home countries. In any event, no matter what their background and education these people would prefer to work here (and contribute to their local communities, pay tax etc.) rather than operate under the direct provision system that the Irish Government has set up.

However, the Irish Government (I feel) does not want these people to work here because if they do they will start integrating into their local communities. If you think back over the last few years most of the times that local communities have organised against the deportation of a family has been because the children of the family concerned have established themselves within the community (largely because they have gone the school). The government is too scared to let asylum-seekers work because they know that they then will integrate into their local communities and it will be too difficult to deport them. This in parallel with the Government's failure to set up any kind of rational policy on immigration has reinforced the kind of anti-immigrant (I don't like to use the word "racist" as it's been bandied around too much and is too emotive) feeling that is inherent anyway in an island that is isolated off the west coast of Europe.

Villain

Originally posted by MadsL
I just have to vent on this.

Those of you who so glibly want to kick out the people who have travelled to the very edge of europe and want to contribute to society, raise their kids here, and most of all just have a chance. Your emigree ancestors would be so proud.

My Ancestors didn't pay huge tax's and work every hour to provide immigrants in this country with classy houses, cars, phones etc.

Don't talk about my ancestors in that patronising frame of mind, they worked hard to keep this country alive

Originally posted by MadsL

This country need immigrants, you cannot compete on the global stage with a tiny population, build Ireland into a modern nation, be brave and take the chance that immigrants may help your to future economic security - at the moment this country is being failed, losing out to Bangalore, the only dotcom advantage that we ever had was that we were CHEAP! We need cheap labour, we need people sweeping our streets, cleaning toilets - all the stuff YOU don't want to do. I pray for indian corner shops - because at least then I might get some service, and diversity in the food I can buy. I pray for Lituanian waitresses who might just have some manners when I am eating out, instead of the snotty Dalkey girl just paying for her Ibiza holiday.


I sit here in a country with f^ckd up infrastructure, economy, tax system, corruption, legal system, roads, insurance, etc etc jeez the list goes on. Who will I blame? Ah, yes - immigrants.

If this country is so bad why don'y you go somewhere else, maybe back to the UK.

Originally posted by MadsL

If this referendum goes through, hang your heads in shame. You will have spit upon yourselves, denied your history and allowed your politicians to once again deflect blame to those least able to speak up for themselves. Shame. Shame. Shame on you.

Shame on your country that is doing very little different in the measures the Irish are taken.

Irish people travelled abroad when work was not here, but by god did they work, and if they didn't they ended up on the street. You talk about Ireland as if it's the only country that takes such measures, have a look at your country and every other country in Europe before you go on a rant about Ireland.


Open your eyes man and get off that high horse, oh and by the way there's very cheap flights back to the UK these days

androphobic

Originally posted by irish1

If this country is so bad why don'y you go somewhere else, maybe back to the UK.

The issue and posts so far aside, that comment is completely childish. How did we ever get a reputation as being "friendly"? Sometimes there is such hatred and animosity in Ireland, it's such a shame.

(Edit: By the way I'm Irish but living abroad at present.. just in case, you know, my comment isn't valid if I'm not Irish.)

corley

Originally posted by irish1
[
Irish people travelled abroad when work was not here, but by god did they work, and if they didn't they ended up on the street. You talk about Ireland as if it's the only country that takes such measures, have a look at your country and every other country in Europe before you go on a rant about Ireland.


Open your eyes man and get off that high horse, oh and by the way there's very cheap flights back to the UK these days [/B]

In my previous post I said that I hesitated to use the word "racist" but I really feel that some of the things being said here are sailing very close to the wind.

Did you see "The Des Bishop Experience" on Network 2? That programme showed how large sections of the services industry in Ireland are being held together by immigrants (predominantly, but by no means entirely Chinese).

Did you read my previous post where I explained that asylum-seekers in Ireland ARE NOT ALLOWED to work because of Irish Government regulations?

It's true that Irish people have in the past worked abroad and they contributed. The countries to which they went, (typically, but not always) the US and the UK ,are multi-cultural and have gained a lot from that experience. Europe, and Ireland, needs immigration because (to be quite frank) a lot of the people who live here now have lost the will to work. Don't just take my word for it. Even a "right-wing" magazine like The Economist has been arguing in favour of increasing the number of immigrants who come into Europe.

Villain

Originally posted by androphobic
The issue and posts so far aside, that comment is completely childish. How did we ever get a reputation as being "friendly"? Sometimes there is such hatred and animosity in Ireland, it's such a shame.

Sorry??

You can't take the issues and post aside, the post was in reference to comments the poster had made:rolleyes:

I have no hatred for genuine people who want to live and become part of our community.

Don't jump in, in the middle of a discussion with silly posts that try and depict one line in a post as an attitude.

I'm very freindly and get on very well with all members of soeity.

That poster has failed to see Ireland actually has one of the most relaxed attitudes towards immigrants.

So either join the discussion or butt out.

Villain

Originally posted by corley
In my previous post I said that I hesitated to use the word "racist" but I really feel that some of the things being said here are sailing very close to the wind.

Did you see "The Des Bishop Experience" on Network 2? That programme showed how large sections of the services industry in Ireland are being held together by immigrants (predominantly, but by no means entirely Chinese).

Did you read my previous post where I explained that asylum-seekers in Ireland ARE NOT ALLOWED to work because of Irish Government regulations?

It's true that Irish people have in the past worked abroad and they contributed. The countries to which they went, (typically, but not always) the US and the UK ,are multi-cultural and have gained a lot from that experience. Europe, and Ireland, needs immigration because (to be quite frank) a lot of the people who live here now have lost the will to work. Don't just take my word for it. Even a "right-wing" magazine like The Economist has been arguing in favour of increasing the number of immigrants who come into Europe.

Are you calling me a racist??

I know there is some very hardworking immigrants here, I have worked with some, 2 latvian women, they were very pleasant and very hardworking, but there is a hell of a lot immigrants who are sponging off this state and not giving anything in return.

I take your point about immigrants not being able to work for a certain period but there cases have to be accessed, mind you they should be accessed a lot quicker

corley

Originally posted by irish1
Sorry??

I have no hatred for genuine people who want to live and become part of our community.

...

So either join the discussion or butt out.

Irish1,

At this stage I have made a number of posts which address issues that you have raised (so I think I am driving the discussion) yet you have not responded to any of the points that I have made.

I wish to restate my main point again, asylum seekers who come here are unable to fully join the communities in which they live because the government does not allow them to work.

I would appreciate it if you could at least address the issues that I have raised before you criticise other people for not joining the discussion

MadsL

My Ancestors didn't pay huge tax's and work every hour to provide immigrants in this country with classy houses, cars, phones etc.

I pay tax, work hard, spend money here. I buy things. I have never claimed dole, even when I was entitled to it.

No-one is providing me with a house, car, phone etc...did I miss something? Where can I sign up for that. Show me where?

If this country is so bad why don'y you go somewhere else, maybe back to the UK.

God, you are a cliche aren't you. Read my post again you moron.

Shame on your country that is doing very little different in the measures the Irish are taken.

I agree. I don't like it either. But we are discussing THIS country. And the UK is a diverse country that has taken in many immigrants, including millions of Irish.

Irish people travelled abroad when work was not here, but by god did they work, and if they didn't they ended up on the street. You talk about Ireland as if it's the only country that takes such measures, have a look at your country and every other country in Europe before you go on a rant about Ireland.

Germany for instance which has accepted over 100,000 asylum seekers? And millions of immigrants.

Why don't we invite all the emigrants back - all 70 MILLION of ye. That would be an immigrant 'problem'.

High horse? All the better to see further than you. I see your future and if you cannot live without your monoculture, you are doomed. Try travelling the world a little - grow up a lot - and you might have some sense of what can be gained by a society that welcomes diversity - look at New York, or London. Are you so frightened of seeing someone different to you.

androphobic

I have been following the discussion, which I think is pre-requisite enough to posting, no?

If not, I do apologise for my post. Profusely.

Villain

Corley the post you replied to was direct at someone else.

I repsonded to your post with:

Originally posted by irish1
Are you calling me a racist??

I know there is some very hardworking immigrants here, I have worked with some, 2 latvian women, they were very pleasant and very hardworking, but there is a hell of a lot immigrants who are sponging off this state and not giving anything in return.

I take your point about immigrants not being able to work for a certain period but there cases have to be accessed, mind you they should be accessed a lot quicker

corley

Originally posted by irish1
Are you calling me a racist??

I know there is some very hardworking immigrants here, I have worked with some, 2 latvian women, they were very pleasant and very hardworking, but there is a hell of a lot immigrants who are sponging off this state and not giving anything in return.

I take your point about immigrants not being able to work for a certain period but there cases have to be accessed, mind you they should be accessed a lot quicker

Firstly, I'd like to apologise for saying that you were not responding to my posts - you obviously responded to my last post while I was posting my last message.

However I have to take issue with what you say about there being "a lot immigrants who are sponging off this state and not giving anything in return" - are there not a lot of Irish people who it could be argued are doing the same thing?

I'm not saying that you are racist - I think that term has been thrown around too much recently and is unhelpful. However, I think we need to realise that we are dealing with people here and that each case needs to be dealt with on an individual basis rather than using blanket terms about immigrants (who are a really diverse group and include asylum-seekers, recognised refugees, migrants from other EU countries and spouses/partners of Irish citizens). It is too simplistic to treat all these people as if they are part of a homogenous group.

By the way even the fact that you say "I take your point about immigrants not being able to work for a certain period" indicates your confusion about immigration in Ireland. I was referring to the fact that asylum-seekers cannot work until their refugee status has been determined. There are many other classes of immigrants to whom this rule does not apply, who do not get state support and who are able to (and do) work.

SunShine

I would like to vote for irish1 to be the next president of Ireland - Where do I send my brown envelope ?

MadsL

To his 'ancestors' - they are skint after paying for Charlie H's shirts, and Bertie's chit-chats...

Villain

Originally posted by MadsL
Read my post again you moron.

I won't rise to your personal insults, but I will discuss the topic if you wish.

I'm not saying ALL immigrants are getting these benefits for nothing but there is a large number.

You said:

I pray for Lituanian waitresses who might just have some manners when I am eating out, instead of the snotty Dalkey girl just paying for her Ibiza holiday.

I sit here in a country with f^ckd up infrastructure, economy, tax system, corruption, legal system, roads, insurance, etc etc jeez the list goes on. Who will I blame? Ah, yes - immigrants

So I said :"If this country is so bad why don'y you go somewhere else, maybe back to the UK."

Which I think is pretty valid. But I don't like been called a Moron!

I agree. I don't like it either. But we are discussing THIS country. And the UK is a diverse country that has taken in many immigrants, including millions of Irish.

Ok sorry for raising for you own countrys measures

Why don't we invite all the emigrants back - all 70 MILLION of ye. That would be an immigrant 'problem'.

High horse? All the better to see further than you. I see your future and if you cannot live without your monoculture, you are doomed. Try travelling the world a little - grow up a lot - and you might have some sense of what can be gained by a society that welcomes diversity - look at New York, or London. Are you so frightened of seeing someone different to you.

Oh so 1 country from all of Europe, Ireland offers immigrants a lot more than most countrys.

Oh and that 70 million are loved througout the world, I wonder is because a lot of them sponged of the country's they went to, or maybe because they worked so hard.

MadsL

[URL=http://www.google.ie/search?q=cache:Ug9gm9EXobQJ:www.examiner.ie/pport/web/opinion/Full_Story/did-sgk5DauCnemWksgTbBP-2fa91M.asp+irish+immigration+myths&hl=en&ie=UTF-8]check this article on Irish immigration[/URL]

Phil_321

Originally posted by MadsL

How do we feel after this? Pretty disgusted...
Our countries, UK and America, offered work to Irish emigrees for generations.

Populations (approx):
Ireland: 4 million
U.S.A. : 280million
U.K. : 58 million

It's not like the Irish immigrants were going to have a major impact on these countrys' finances. Especially since the Irish went abroad to work, rather than go on the dole in Ireland. Or even further back when there was no dole, it wasn't costing these countries anything.
America was built on immigrants from all over the world.

Oh btw,
Populations (approx):
Nigeria: 100 million
Romania: 22million

This country need immigrants, you cannot compete on the global stage with a tiny population, build Ireland into a modern nation, be brave and take the chance that immigrants may help your to future economic security - at the moment this country is

We are competing on the global stage. I don't see how taking in a load of immigrants who are going to drain 350 million a year from the state is going to ensure our economic security.

I sit here in a country with f^ckd up infrastructure, economy, tax system, corruption, legal system, roads, insurance, etc etc jeez the list goes on. Who will I blame? Ah, yes - immigrants.

That's an overreaction. No one here said the immigrants are the cause of these problems.

If this referendum goes through, hang your heads in shame. You will have spit upon yourselves, denied your history and allowed your politicians to once again deflect blame to those least able to speak up for themselves. Shame. Shame. Shame on you.

We're the only country in the EU who currently gives automatic citizenship to people born in the country.
It is not racist to have a sensible policy on this issue that brings us into line with the rest of the EU.

Villain

Originally posted by corley
Firstly, I'd like to apologise for saying that you were not responding to my posts - you obviously responded to my last post while I was posting my last message.

No problem

Originally posted by corley

However I have to take issue with what you say about there being "a lot immigrants who are sponging off this state and not giving anything in return" - are there not a lot of Irish people who it could be argued are doing the same thing?

Very true indeed, and they should be adressed, however I would like to point out that the numbers on the dole are very very low in the last fews.

Originally posted by corley

I'm not saying that you are racist - I think that term has been thrown around too much recently and is unhelpful. However, I think we need to realise that we are dealing with people here and that each case needs to be dealt with on an individual basis rather than using blanket terms about immigrants (who are a really diverse group and include asylum-seekers, recognised refugees, migrants from other EU countries and spouses/partners of Irish citizens). It is too simplistic to treat all these people as if they are part of a homogenous group.

By the way even the fact that you say "I take your point about immigrants not being able to work for a certain period" indicates your confusion about immigration in Ireland. I was referring to the fact that asylum-seekers cannot work until their refugee status has been determined. There are many other classes of immigrants to whom this rule does not apply, who do not get state support and who are able to (and do) work.

Your correct there are a lot of different groups, the problem is far from simplistic, I have no problem with any of the groups if there willing to pay there way.

Meh

Originally posted by irish1
My Ancestors didn't pay huge tax's and work every hour to provide immigrants in this country with classy houses, cars, phones etc.

And neither do you. In fact, despite what you read in the Evening Herald, nobody in this country pays tax to provide immigrants (whether they're on work permits or asylum-seekers) with posh houses, cars or phones. If they have any of those things, they paid for them out of their own pockets.

Immigrants with work permits get no support whatsoever from the government (because, by definition, they have jobs). Asylum-seekers aren't allowed work, so they get the vast sum of €19.50 a week from the government. If you can pay for a classy house, a car and a mobile phone out of €19.50 a week, I for one would like to know your secret.

Phil_321

And can one of the "No" people please tell us why something like 57% of female asylum-seekers over the age of 16 are pregnant on arrival in this country.

Go on, answer that one.

corley

Originally posted by irish1
No problem


Very true indeed, and they should be adressed, however I would like to point out that the numbers on the dole are very very low in the last fews.


Your correct there are a lot of different groups, the problem is far from simplistic, I have no problem with any of the groups if there willing to pay there way.

i'm not just referring to the dole - Mary Harney took a swipe at unmarried mothers prior to the last election. It seems that any group who are marginalised and disorganised are the first ones to suffer when we talk about "contributing" to the Irish economy. Meanwhile Ireland has the lowest corporation taxes in the EU (and therefore requires the least amount of tax from companies) but no-one comments on that.

With regard to your second point what evidence is there that immigrants are not willing to pay their (actually you seem to have a problem understanding the difference between the word "their" and "there" but that's a discussion for another day) way? It's actually quite simple - asylum seekers are not allowed to work so they can't pay "their" way. Other immigrants are here on work visas and will be thrown out of the country quickly (even though they have paid taxes) if they are no longer working.

Villain

Originally posted by corley
i'm not just referring to the dole - Mary Harney took a swipe at unmarried mothers prior to the last election. It seems that any group who are marginalised and disorganised are the first ones to suffer when we talk about "contributing" to the Irish economy. Meanwhile Ireland has the lowest corporation taxes in the EU (and therefore requires the least amount of tax from companies) but no-one comments on that.

Actually I think you'l find that was raised on a thread in this forum recently, 20% CGT is a joke.

Originally posted by corley

With regard to your second point what evidence is there that immigrants are not willing to pay their (actually you seem to have a problem understanding the difference between the word "their" and "there" but that's a discussion for another day) way? It's actually quite simple - asylum seekers are not allowed to work so they can't pay "their" way. Other immigrants are here on work visas and will be thrown out of the country quickly (even though they have paid taxes) if they are no longer working.

English never was my best subject!.

Anyway, I do realise that asylum seekers can't work which I think is a joke, I mean if they want excile they should be allowed to pay their way to get it.

Getting late so I'm probably starting to repeat myself

corley

Originally posted by irish1
Actually I think you'l find that was raised on a thread in this forum recently, 20% CGT is a joke.


English never was my best subject!.

Anyway, I do realise that asylum seekers can't work which I think is a joke, I mean if they want excile they should be allowed to pay their way to get it.

Getting late so so I'm so I'm starting to repeat myself

Well, irish1, I think we're starting to agree with each other (but please correct me if I'm being too presumptuous!!).

The reality is that most people in Ireland don't understand our immigration and asylum policies. In my experience once you've explained to people the reality of life in Ireland as a "non-national" (and I hate using that word) they then have sympathy for all of the people who have come to this country (for various reasons) over the last few years.

Unfortunately the Government is going to play on the fact that most Irish people are ignorant of the realities that these people face.

MadsL

Right so - put up the barracades!

A population of 4million just isn't going to cut it in the next economic phase. we are already losing out to other countries, Bangalore IT being a classic example where Ireland is becoming less competitive.

We need a growth in the economy - where is that going to come from, A static population will simply drive up the wage/cost cycle, at the same time Ireleand gets less and less competitive. Why do you think two of the strongest economic powers - America and Germany have policies that are very favourable to immigration. Cheap labour makes you competitive and also stimulates domestic demand for goods and services - which creates jobs. Germany's economic struggle was caused by reunification - not immigration.

One of the greatest myths about immigration is that immmigration costs mnative workers jobs. Not true, 400 million or 4 million makes no difference.

What is your evidence that 350 million is drained from the state? What about the extra goods and services consumed by immigrants. The taxes paid by them? ****, my fiance paid enough tax last year! I would not call her a burden on state resources.

---

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I sit here in a country with f^ckd up infrastructure, economy, tax system, corruption, legal system, roads, insurance, etc etc jeez the list goes on. Who will I blame? Ah, yes - immigrants.

---

That's an overreaction. No one here said the immigrants are the cause of these problems.

Do I need to spell it out YOUR GOVERNMENT IS SAYING THIS!!!!

FF are deliberately using this ref to deflect from all the other issues we should be talking about.


Don't get me wrong - I don't favour a free for all policy. I would love to see a system that allows for quotas and scoring like the US and Austrailian systems (oh, and by the way my fiance was recruited in Eastern Europe when there was an IT shortage in this country! Kinda ironic dontcha think?)

The problem is that the gvt wouldn't know a policy if it bit them in the ass and I KNOW there is a f^cked up Civil Service behind the mess down at Garda Immigration.

This ref will not solve ANY of these problems.

MadsL

Originally posted by Phil_321
And can one of the "No" people please tell us why something like 57% of female asylum-seekers over the age of 16 are pregnant on arrival in this country.

Go on, answer that one.

I will, if you can actually give me a source for that little titbit of nonsense...

Villain

Originally posted by MadsL
I will, if you can actually give me a source for that little titbit of nonsense...

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2002/09/22/story328094.asp

A spokesman for the department said: "The Office of the Refugee Application Commissioner does not collect statistics on the pregnancy of asylum seekers. However, when applicants present for the first time at that office, it is obvious that many are heavily pregnant.

"As their condition could have implications for availability for interview, enquiries are made in that regard and many indicate their expected delivery date. As a result, the office is in a position to say that 45 to 50 per cent of female asylum seekers are obviously pregnant at the time of application.

MadsL

So you just rounded up the 'spokespersons' opinion of around 45-50% to a nice precise sounding 57%. I'm suprised you didn't say 57.1%

I think it is shocking that this 0.00225% of the population behave this way. Jeez all this fuss about 9,000 families since 1998.

Villain

"As their condition could have implications for availability for interview, enquiries are made in that regard and many indicate their expected delivery date. As a result, the office is in a position to say that 45 to 50 per cent of female asylum seekers are obviously pregnant at the time of application

MadsL

Originally posted by irish1
45-50% Shock horror

So f^cking what? Most people tend to think about a better life for their kids when they get pregnant.

Tell you what Irish1 - would you deport me if I were not an EU citizen. I have a kid I would never see again. Would you in all conscience deport me?

Villain

Originally posted by MadsL
I think it is shocking that this 0.00225% of the population behave this way. Jeez all this fuss about 9,000 families since 1998.

Oh right so now that I provided a link which states that that 45%-50% are pregnant you fob it of with that post:rolleyes: