Immigration Referendum

Villain

MADSL don't misquote me I never posted

"45-50% Shock horror"

I'm not evern going to bother answering your last question, you should be able to discuss an issue without it getting personal.

MadsL

Have you BEEN to Romania, Irish1? I'd f^cking leave if I were pregnant. Why are you so admiring of your blessed ancestors around the world (that everyone loves of course :rolleyes: ) and so down on these people trying for a better life. Sh!t, the country is hardly so over populated there is nowhere for them to go!

MadsL

My point was that it was 57% that was stated as a definate percentage with no source

45-50% gets inflated to 57% which 'sounds better'

Villain

Originally posted by MadsL
My point was that it was 57% that was stated as a definate percentage with no source

45-50% gets inflated to 57% which 'sounds better'

Show me where I said 57%, I never speculated a %, I provided a link.

You misquoted me

corley

Originally posted by MadsL
Tell you what Irish1 - would you deport me if I were not an EU citizen. I have a kid I would never see again. Would you in all conscience deport me?

irish1, you still haven't answered Madsl's main question. My whole point is that we're dealing with people here, not groups that we can just attach a label to.

MadsL

I was challenging Phil. You got in the way backing him up with the link that proved he pulled the 57% out of his arse.

Villain

Originally posted by corley
irish1, you still haven't answered Madsl's main question. My whole point is that we're dealing with people here, not groups that we can just attach a label to.

I did

I'm not even going to bother answering your last question, you should be able to discuss an issue without it getting personal.

Thats all I'm going to say in relation to his question

Villain

Originally posted by MadsL
I was challenging Phil. You got in the way backing him up with the link that proved he pulled the 57% out of his arse.

I never said I backed him up, if I was backing him up would I have posted a link to show his figures were WRONG??

MadsL

So what's your answer to the 'problem' Irish1. Big fence. Irish Army at every border crossing?

Villain

Originally posted by MadsL
So what's your answer to the 'problem' Irish1. Big fence. Irish Army at every border crossing?

You dramatising the issue, your taken the argument too personally, I have nothing against you personally, I hope you stay in Ireland and continue to work and see your child.

I'm not going to be drawn in an emotional personal argument.

corley

Originally posted by irish1
I did

Thats all I'm going to say in relation to his question

While I fully accept that you can hold whatever views you wish to hold, I personally feel that it's a bit rich for someone who is quite happily sitting in a Western European democracy (with residency status) to tell someone else that it's a "personal issue" if they are not going to have access to their own children.

In reality international capital can flow from one side of the world to the other in the blink of an eye but people (who I would (maybe naively) feel are much more important than money, and don't get me going on family relations) are restricted by laws and attitudes that would more correctly relate to a 19th century society.

Villain

Originally posted by corley
While I fully accept that you can hold whatever views you wish to hold, I personally feel that it's a bit rich for someone who is quite happily sitting in a Western European democracy (with residency status) to tell someone else that it's a "personal issue" if they are not going to have access to their own children.

I meant I wasn't going to discuss 1 particular case, especially his.

Read my last post, I have nothing against madsl

MadsL

Strange, a few posts ago you were telling me to get a cheap flight back to the UK.

That felt pretty emotional to me.

It was pretty emotional when my fiance was almost deported.

It is pretty emotional that I have no say in a referendum that affects the future of a country that I might actually consider becoming a citizen of.

It is pretty emotional when close personal friends of mine could be deported because of the change in attitude towards non-nationals in this country.

Screw you and your 'nothing personal'.

Everytime you come out with your classy houses paid for by my relatives bullsh!t, you insult me and every other hard-working immigrant in this country. Every time you label us, you insult us. Grow up and get some sense.

corley

Originally posted by irish1
I meant I wasn't going to discuss 1 particular case, especially his.

Read my last post, I have nothing against madsl

But do you not get it? Government policy (including this referendum) acutally fundamedtally affects life on this little island of ours for so many people. You can't say "I'm not going to get involved in individual cases" because individual cases are affected by government policy.

Villain

Originally posted by MadsL
Strange, a few posts ago you were telling me to get a cheap flight back to the UK.

What I said was "If this country is so bad why don'y you go somewhere else, maybe back to the UK."

Apologies if I offended you

Villain

Originally posted by corley
But do you not get it? Government policy (including this referendum) acutally fundamedtally affects life on this little island of ours for so many people. You can't say "I'm not going to get involved in individual cases" because individual cases are affected by government policy.

Of course I get that, but I'm not going to make this discussion personal.

Now sorry if you don't like that but thats my choice

MadsL

Look Irish1, there are millions and millions of immigrants around the world. One day, you might want to see something of the world and become one yourself.

Think how you would like to be treated, then treat immigrants here with the respect you would like. Simple.

I have a friend who makes it a point of honour to shake the hand of anyone he comes across from a different country and thank them for coming here.

MadsL

and so to bed...

corley

Originally posted by irish1
Of course I get that, but I'm not going to make this discussion personal.

Now sorry if you don't like that but thats my choice

I fully appreciate (and respect) the fact that that's your choice. However, it's exactly that attitude of "Oh, these are policy decisions and we're not going to discuss the impact of these policies" that gives bureaucracies a bad name. It also leads to policies such as the one that prohibits asylum-seekers from working that you disagreed with in an earlier post. In summary, policies (particularly government policies) affect people. You can't divorce policies from their impact on people. Either policies are right or wrong - there's no middle ground where you say that you don't want to deal with a particular policy's impact on individuals.

Meh

Originally posted by MadsL
Have you BEEN to Romania, Irish1? I'd f^cking leave if I were pregnant. Why are you so admiring of your blessed ancestors around the world (that everyone loves of course :rolleyes: ) and so down on these people trying for a better life.

I have every sympathy for them, I'm in favour of immigration, and I agree with you that our current immigration system is horribly broken. But encouraging pregnant women to risk their health and their children's health is the wrong way to go about fixing it. Do you think those pregnant asylum-seekers like giving birth in a strange foreign country away from their families? Do you think they like taking long plane/ferry trips to Dublin in their ninth month of pregnancy?

Wouldn't it be much better if we decided immigration issues based on education, skills and character etc. rather than an accident of birth? I reckon both you and your fiance would most definitely be allowed stay if we used those criteria instead...

MadsL

Thanks Meh,

I just want to point out that over the last 12 years almost 80,000 Irish have emigrated to the US.

I reckon there's room now for a few folk coming in!Source

corley

Originally posted by corley
I fully appreciate (and respect) the fact that that's your choice. However, it's exactly that attitude of "Oh, these are policy decisions and we're not going to discuss the impact of these policies" that gives bureaucracies a bad name. It also leads to policies such as the one that prohibits asylum-seekers from working that you disagreed with in an earlier post. In summary, policies (particularly government policies) affect people. You can't divorce policies from their impact on people. Either policies are right or wrong - there's no middle ground where you say that you don't want to deal with a particular policy's impact on individuals.

I guess Irish1 has gone to bed (as I am just about to) as we've heard nothing from him/her in 30 mins. SoI'm off to sleep myself - but in summary I have yet to see a logical reason expressed here for continuing the Irish government's policy of having a non-realistic immigration policy. In the absence of such a policy I will be voting "No" in this referendum.

flogen

I couldnt be arsed reading through the 6 pages, so firstly this isnt a response to anyones comments in perticular, and it is almost certainly a repetition of something someone has already said:

I will vote yes because there is a loophole in our constitution that needs to be fixed. It is not right for someone to come into the country, have a baby and instantly claim citizenship (or have the child claim citizenship). Nowhere else in the EU has it, so why do we? The amendment will simply mean that to be an irish citizen you must have 1 irish parent, or a parent that has been here 3 years (and so has contributed to the country, thus IMO deserving recognition for that). This will not effect people with grandparents who are irish and all that, that issue will be the same as before (whatever the case in it may be).
There is abuses to the asylum system here, like there is everywhere, its a fact of life, but we must do what we can to block all abuses and ensure that the genuine cases are dealt with as such. the more crap and abuse that comes into the system the longer it takes to help those truely in need.
And this is not a racist bill. it would be if it said anyone of african origan or aisan origan couldnt etc etc. but it stands for everyone, white, black, whatever. It is mearly protecting our country from abuse. All genuine asylum cases will not be effected and these people have no reason to worry about it, as if they arent planning on claiming citizenship due to a child born here, then the law stays the same.

I am struggling to see how this will effect genuine cases.. if its a family looking for asylum and the wife happens to be pregenent on arrival, and has her baby here, whats the problem? they can still apply for asylum, its not as if the immigrants will be thrown out of the country instantly... its only going to effect people that are using their soon to be born child as a means for citizenship.. and thats it

Flogen

arcadegame2004

MadsL, you are wrong to imply that UK citizens living here face any risk of deportation after the passing of this referendum proposal. UK citizens are also EU citizens. The only countries in the EU-25 as of May that will be restricted from coming to the West will be the Eastern Applicant states and that has NOTHING to do with this referendum proposal but rather to the EU Enlargement Accession Treaty under which Western EU states may impose restrictions on Eastern immigration for 7 years while Eastern states may impose restrictions on Westerners buying up land for a while. There is no need for restrictions on UK-nationals coming here as you are still a little richer than us and as your unemployment-rate is actually lower than ours. So cut out that red-herring please.

On your point about your American fiancee being deported I am very sympathetic. But that has nothing to do with this referendum. America is NOT part of the EU remember. Current EU members are unaffected by Minister McDowell's proposals. Ireland is simply trying to restore the status-quo-anti before 1998. If these proposals are "racist" then surely you are saying that Ireland itself was racist prior to 1998. I strongly disagree with that.

Angelfire, your parents are not going to be deported don't be so dozy as to think that!

arcadegame2004

May I correct a minority on this forum who seem to believe that the Supreme Court Judgement from some time ago is the solution and renders a referendum unnecessary.

The numbers still coming to this country including in late stages of pregnancy remain substantial. Even if there is no longer a guarantee of automatic citizenship for the immigrant parents of children born in Ireland, there is still a strong "emotional balckmail" affect whereby "bleeding-heart" judges may (and often do) obstruct the deportation of illegal immigrants who time their arrival in Ireland to ensure they give birth here. The Supreme Court did not say that the immigrant parents of asylum-seekers (from such tyrannies as democratic Romania and Bulgaria lol) MUST be deported. Rather they said there was no longer an automatic right to citizenship from these parents. However, the automatic citizenship right for the children of illegals remains, thereby encouraging left-wing judges to constantly obstruct the actual deportation of the parents aswell, on "bleeding heart" i.e. emotional blackmail grounds.

Someone here asked me do I have any evidence of this emotional-blackmail affect. What more evidence do we need than out of around 8,800 asylum-applications last year, only a number barely in the low hundreds was deported. This is pathetic. I have a cousin who used to work in interview the asylum-claimants. She says that the vast majority make up reasons for claiming asylum. Over 50% of asylum-seekers don't even attend the interview process that is supposed to come after the asylum-claim is made, whererby they justify their prospective right to Irish citizenship. Why is this? Clearly it is because they feel that having thge child here is enough to make it near impossible to get their deportations through the Courts.

Our Health Service is at breaking-point with the doubling of Health spending proving ineffective. The asylum-seeking women cannot claim to be fleeing persecution by the time they reach the Republic of Ireland since 80% of them arrive here via Northern Ireland. The Dublin Convention of 1981 is extremely clear. An asylum-seeker must claim asylum in the FIRST EU country they enter. As such, almost non of the asylum-seekers coming here are genuine.

dglancy

Just scanned the previous pages and my observations are,

There are thousands of ethnic groups in the world but only a few hundred countries. Multi-ethnic cultures ARE the norm.

Irish citizenship is a European issue, not just something for this country to consider. Citizenship should mean something more than just a passport - look at the official secrets act.

It's bollox to suggest that our health service would be grand if it weren't for immigrants - they are going to spend the billions either way.

You should be able to discuss citizenship (which by its very nature implies grouping people together into different slots) without it being branded a racist discussion.

I bet most people don't have a clue what the various citizenship rules are (myself included).

Anybody who feels that Irish citizenship rules are tough/racist should have a go at applying for citizenship of Australia/Canada/US. Do it for a laugh and see how far you get. The vast majority of you will be rejected.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
...there is still a strong "emotional balckmail" affect whereby "bleeding-heart" judges may (and often do) obstruct the deportation of illegal immigrants who time their arrival in Ireland to ensure they give birth here.

Can you give a specific example of when this happened? I'd like to read up on it.

Meh

Originally posted by dglancy
JAnybody who feels that Irish citizenship rules are tough/racist should have a go at applying for citizenship of Australia/Canada/US. Do it for a laugh and see how far you get. The vast majority of you will be rejected.

There are two separate issues here. Our citizenship rules are much easier than in other countries, that's true. But our immigration rules are much harder. It's harder to get a work permit; once you do get a work permit you're tied to a particular employer; if that employer lays you off you're liable to be deported immediately. (See how simple, straightforward and fair the Canadian system is -- you can even take the test online.)

Given this, it's hardly surprising that some people are using our too-easy citizenship rules to get around our too-hard immigration rules. The solution, of course, is to fix both -- stop passing citizenship out based on something as arbitrary as geographical location of birth, and make the rules for legal immigrants easier.

capistrano

Immigration, asylum and citizenship and three separate issues.

We need this referendum to fix a loophole in out citizenship rules.

Right now immigrants can only get work permits tied to a particular employer. We need a proper immigration system, like Canada, Australia, etc.

When both of these issues are sorted out, then the asylum system will be left for cases of genuine asylum requests. Right now every economic migrant is claiming asylum, which is absolutely ludicrous, not to say bogus.

ai ing

Madsl
Heres the link to back up that figure of 57% . I posted it before on the first page of this thread so it doesnt look like you bothered to read it.
http://www.justice.ie/802569B20047F907/vWeb/wpMJDE5WZMEU
quotes:

As regards the number of asylum applicants who arrive in the State while pregnant, the data available from the Office of the Refugee Applications Commissioner show that over the past year, the number of asylum seekers pregnant at the time of application was almost 60% of the number of female asylum seekers aged 16 years and over.
The rate of pregnancy is largely unchanged, averaging 57% of women aged over 16 years for the 6-month period. This compares with averages of 58% in the period March-December 2002 and 61% in January-June 2003.
However, recent trends have indicated that the scale of the problem is even greater outside of the asylum seeker framework, with very large numbers of non-EEA nationals now coming to Ireland to give birth. The Minister has been informed of the growing concern among health care professionals about the rate of non-nationals coming to Ireland to give birth and the strains which this is placing on services. Data supplied by the Masters of the three Dublin Maternity Hospitals show that those hospitals alone have had 2,816 births to non-nationals in the first six months of last year.
The feature of Irish citizenship law which grants an entitlement to citizenship to all persons born on the island of Ireland is unique in the European Union, and unusual world-wide. Most other countries have laws whereby citizenship is acquired by descent from an existing citizen, with place of birth either wholly or largely irrelevant. This makes Ireland an attractive target destination for persons wishing to establish residence in the EU and with no other basis, or a less certain basis, for doing so elsewhere. All other Member States of the EU either provide citizenship to the child of a citizen or permanent resident only or else provide citizenship to a child born on its territory only after a period of residence in the state concerned and / or after attaining a certain age.
It should also be noted that a number of other states have amended their law to exclude the possibility of the children of illegal immigrants obtaining citizenship by birth on the territory of the state (UK 1981, Australia 1986).
SO madsl it hasnt been that long since your own country brought in this exact same law.