Immigration Referendum

AngelofFire

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
".

Angelfire says :"if they government cared about society they would have addressed the issue of rediculously expensive housing, rat infested schools and a deplorable health service a long time ago".

Angelfire, while I am not usually an avid defender of our government, I point out that part of the problem in our Health-Service is the strain citizenship-tourists are placing on it. Thus, the Government's actions on immigration may eventually free up resources in the Health-Service that can then be more productively apportioned.

]

if you believe that you probably believe their claim that cutting funds from education will gaurantee future economic progress.

the problems with the health system stem from corruption in the various departments of health. there is too much management and not enough investment in the service itself. this is nothing to do with refugees or assylum seekers or children born of foreign parents. its a problem that predates the irish multicultural society.

capistrano

We've wanderd way off mressgae.

Without mentioning immigration or asylum, which are different issues, can anybody give me one good reason why every child who happens to be born in Irenad should have an automatic right to Irish citizenship.

Villain

Originally posted by AngelofFire
the problems with the health system stem from corruption in the various departments of health. there is too much management and not enough investment in the service itself. this is nothing to do with refugees or assylum seekers or children born of foreign parents. its a problem that predates the irish multicultural society.

Just to point out AngelofFire I think you'l find it's the opposite, too much investment and too little good management.

Also while I totally accept that the health systems's problems go long beyond the strain being put on it by refugees or assylum seekers, I think it is a problem in Maternity hospitals I think I read in this thread that around 25% of births in Dublin's maternity hospitals were to refugees or assylum seekers. If the problem is not addressed I think it will become a more serious issue in the future.

Villain

Originally posted by capistrano
Without mentioning immigration or asylum, which are different issues, can anybody give me one good reason why every child who happens to be born in Irenad should have an automatic right to Irish citizenship.

Nope can't think of one, sorry:D

AngelofFire

Originally posted by capistrano
We've wanderd way off mressgae.

Without mentioning immigration or asylum, which are different issues, can anybody give me one good reason why every child who happens to be born in Irenad should have an automatic right to Irish citizenship.

its simple i was born here i love this country my parents are foreign but thats not an issue imo. i feel as irish as anyone else.

i mean if being born here doesnt give you the right to citzenship in this land. what sort of criteria would you have to meet.

do you have to have red in freckles.

do you have to speak irish fluently.

do you have to dance at the cross roads.

do your ancestors have to be the celts, not the normans, or the vikings

oh wait the dannans were here before the celts, we should perhaps kick the celts out.

where do we draw the line. what makes the people of foreign parents less irish than those whose parents were born here.

Villain

Originally posted by AngelofFire
where do we draw the line. what makes the people of foreign parents less irish than those whose parents were born here.

I think your parents should have to have lived here or up north for at least a couple of years before your a citizen.

I'd like to point out this is the case in a lot of other EU countrys, Ireland is simply coming into line with others

capistrano

Originally posted by AngelofFire
its simple i was born here i love this country my parents are foreign but thats not an issue imo. i feel as irish as anyone else.

i mean if being born here doesnt give you the right to citzenship in this land. what sort of criteria would you have to meet.

So thay's you "one good reason" - because you were born here. It's a bit circular isn't it.

If you're parents were here for three years when you were born you'd get citizenship at birth. Otherwise, having been a legal resident yourself for three years, you'd get zitizenship at age three. So what's your problem, under the new rules you'd still be a citizen?

Trebor

Originally posted by irish1
Also while I totally accept that the health systems's problems go long beyond the strain being put on it by refugees or assylum seekers, I think it is a problem in Maternity hospitals I think I read in this thread that around 25% of births in Dublin's maternity hospitals were to refugees or assylum seekers. If the problem is not addressed I think it will become a more serious issue in the future.

SIGH! again with this!!! 25% of births were to NON-NATIONALS not refugees or assylum seekers. which means to anyone who was not irish the report did not say how many were refugees or assylum seekers. they could all be legal immigrants with jobs!

Villain

Originally posted by Trebor
SIGH! again with this!!! 25% of births were to NON-NATIONALS not refugees or assylum seekers. which means to anyone who was not irish the report did not say how many were refugees or assylum seekers. they could all be legal immigrants with jobs!

Sorry I didn't say it was gospel I said "I THINK I read in this FORUM".

Apologies if not my post was not factually accurate, but I didn't claim it to be:D

capistrano

Originally posted by Trebor
SIGH! again with this!!! 25% of births were to NON-NATIONALS not refugees or assylum seekers.

SIGH! Most of them are probably French and Germans coming here for our fabulous health care system!

There are 1,000,000 Irish people in Dublin. How many non-nationals are there? Ten, twenty thousand. Maybe more. But 25% of births are to non-nationals. So non-nationals are much much more likely to give birth. And again I'd don't think it's the French and Germans. That leaves asylum seekers or those with work permits. But immigration tells us that 57% of all female asylum seekers are pregnant on arrival, so that seems to indicate that it's the asylum seekers make up the bulk of the non-national births. And why wouldn't they, the child automatically gets Irish (and EU) citizenship - a handy commodity!

Victor

Originally posted by Trebor
SIGH! again with this!!! 25% of births were to NON-NATIONALS not refugees or assylum seekers. which means to anyone who was not irish the report did not say how many were refugees or assylum seekers. they could all be legal immigrants with jobs!

Or even foreign maternity nurses and doctos who are helping to solve hospital problems here.

Originally posted by capistrano
can anybody give me one good reason why every child who happens to be born in Irenad should have an automatic right to Irish citizenship.

Because (a) birth is a common decider of nationality, (b) it says so in the Constitution and the Belfast Agreement (c) is is the status quo.

Can you give a good reason (on the philosophical level, not the "it's costing us money" level) to change it?

Trebor

i was trying to get across the point that people are automatically assuming that all the non-nationals giving birth are refugees.

capistrano: what about the chinese? american? uk? Arab? they are all counted as non-national. I am not saying that it's not happening but i don't think it's at the level that people are being led to believe.

Victor: why should geographical location entitle someone to citizenship? surly you must take part in the society of the country you are born in to be entitled to be called it's citizen? or at least you parents should have taken part in it.

heaven forbid we change the status quo

capistrano

Originally posted by Victor
Can you give a good reason (on the philosophical level, not the "it's costing us money" level) to change it?

Being born here is essentially an accident of place and time; no basis for confering citizenship. Citizenship should go to those who have a estrablished link to the state.

Victor

Originally posted by Trebor
surly you must take part in the society of the country you are born in to be entitled to be called it's citizen?

How is a baby supposed to take (an active) part in society?

Should we strip say the emigrant, the unemployed, the elderly, children, the homeless, the ill, the alcoholic, the non-voter, etc. of their citzenship because they don't take (enough of a) part in our society?

Villain

Originally posted by Victor
Can you give a good reason (on the philosophical level, not the "it's costing us money" level) to change it?

Because people are moving here to simply avail of this situation, the childs parents should have contributed to the country for some time, or then if not the child should have to be resident here for some time before he/she gets citizenship.

Trebor

Originally posted by Victor
How is a baby suppose to take (an active) part in society?

Should we strip say the emigrant, the unemployed, the elderly, children, the homeless, the ill, the alcoholic, the non-voter, etc. of their citzenship because they don't take (enough of a) part in our society.

you conveniently left out my second sentence which said that their parents could provide toward society.

emigrants once contributed before they left.
the unemployed have not always been unemployed.
the elderly have contributed for decades
children have their parents contributing
the homeless, once they are house can begin to contribute
the ill contribute when the become well
the alcoholic still pays for his alcoholic and thus has a source of income
voting is not the only way to contribute in society

Villain

Originally posted by Trebor
you conveniently left out my second sentence which said that their parents could provide toward society.

emigrants once contributed before they left.
the unemployed have not always been unemployed.
the elderly have contributed for decades
children have their parents contributing
the homeless, once they are house can begin to contribute
the ill contribute when the become well
the alcoholic still pays for his alcoholic and thus has a source of income
voting is not the only way to contribute in society

excellent points!

Victor

Originally posted by irish1
Because people are moving here to simply avail of this situation,

Sorry, go back and read the question - I said philosophical level.

People invest in property, just to avail of the tax breaks. People get married just to avail of the rights marriage gives. Should these be banned?

Originally posted by irish1
the childs parents should have contributed to the country for some time, or then if not the child should have to be resident here for some time before he/she gets citizenship.

Why?

Villain

Originally posted by Victor
Sorry, go back and read the question - I said philosophical level.

philosophy:A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity

Sorry I think you need to clarify that question Victor.

Originally posted by Victor
People invest in property, just to avail of the tax breaks. People get married just to avail of the rights marriage gives. Should these be banned?

If they are been abused to gain people rights I think so, Whats the problem with asking people to be resident for a number of years before giving them citizenship?

Trebor

Originally posted by Victor
Why?

why not? why should being born in a certain location entitle someone to citizenship? you ask for a philosophical reason why it should be changed can you give one as to why it should not?

AngelofFire

Originally posted by irish1
I think your parents should have to have lived here or up north for at least a couple of years before your a citizen.

I'd like to point out this is the case in a lot of other EU countrys, Ireland is simply coming into line with others

so what you are trying to tell me irish1 is that you dont consider me to be irish but you just dont have to guts to say so. please say so i would find it easier to take you at face value.

dglancy

Yesterday, I rang the Canadian High Commission in London and said that I and my girlfriend wished to travel to Toronto to have a baby.

They told me that I couldn't do that. Racist bastards!

Villain

Originally posted by AngelofFire
so what you are trying to tell me irish1 is that you dont consider me to be irish but you just dont have to guts to say so. please say so i would find it easier to take you at face value.

How long have you lived here??

AngelofFire

all my life. as i said i was born here

Villain

Originally posted by AngelofFire
all my life. as i said i was born here

Well then your entitled you be an Irish Citizen.

Trebor

Originally posted by AngelofFire
all my life. as i said i was born here

then i would cosider you to be an irish citizen. what about the kid that is born here and then the parents are not irish and they move to france and the kid grows up there, would you considered that child french or irish?

corley

Originally posted by capistrano
Almost all your points are complete hogwash, but I am using my pda so i cant be arsed repudiating it right now.

So at 20:45 my points are "complete hogwash", and you can't respond because you're using your PDA, yet at 22:37 you managed to (using your PDA - or some other system) construct a (on boards.ie) 9-line response to someone else's post. Either you can respond to the (in my opinion - and it, obviously, is just my opinion)
valid arguments that I am raising ot not. Please do not hide behind technology when it suits you.


At this point I would also like to cite another quote of yours:

>Being born here is essentially an accident of place and time; no basis for confering >citizenship. Citizenship should go to those who have a estrablished link to the >state.

As I mentioned on this thread earlier I have an American friend who has never set foot in this country but has been able to obtain Irish citizenship (through the grand-parent rule) and is quite happy about that because she wanted to work in Paris. I personally feel that someone who has been born here has a much stronger case for attaing Irish citiszenship than someone who is relying on an accident of ancestral heritage.

Trebor

Originally posted by corley

As I mentioned on this thread earlier I have an American friend who has never set foot in this country but has been able to obtain Irish citizenship (through the grand-parent rule) and is quite happy about that because she wanted to work in Paris. I personally feel that someone who has been born here has a much stronger case for attaing Irish citiszenship than someone who is relying on an accident of ancestral heritage.

all that shows is that the grandparent rule needs to be revised.

why do they have a much stronger case if they are born here? they could leave straight away as the court has said that the birth of a child in ireland does not infer residency to the non-national parents.

Victor

One wonders how many of the 1,600 come from accession states?

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/2988158?view=Eircomnet

One quarter of deportees came from EU accession states
From:ireland.com
Saturday, 10th April, 2004

Almost a quarter of non-nationals deported from the Republic in the last 12 months were from EU accession states and will be free to return here from May 1st when the EU is enlarged.

It has also emerged that the Government has deported four Iraqis in the last year, despite the security situation in that country.

A spokesman for the Minister for Justice, Mr McDowell, said the decision as to who can remain here is not made by the Minister. Instead, it is made by the Refugee Applications Commissioner's Office, with appeals heard by the Refugee Appeals Tribunal, which is completely independent of the Minister and the Department.

New deportation figures released by the Minister reveal 230 Romanian nationals were deported between April 1st, 2003, and March 31st, 2004. Romanians were the most represented nationality in the overall figures.

In total, 661 non-nationals were deported, with 158 deported to accession states.

The vast majority of cases arose following failed asylum applications. However, a smaller number were deported after having committed a crime while in Ireland.

Some 57 citizens of the Czech Republic were deported, the second-biggest group after the Romanians. They will all be free to return here from May 1st. Citizens from seven of the 10 EU accession states were deported in the 12 months to March 31st.

As well as the Czechs, the accession-state citizens deported included 40 Polish nationals, 25 Lithuanians, 19 Latvians, eight Estonians, five Hungarians and four Slovakians.

Since last September, a "safe list" of countries was drawn up by the Department of Justice, which included all EU and accession states.

It is understood that, since that date, a much smaller number of accession-state citizens have been deported.

A spokesman for Mr McDowell said the Irish authorities had an international and domestic legal obligation to process all asylum claims, regardless of the nationality of asylum-seeker.

He added that when an application was rejected in respect of an accession-state citizen, the authorities here deported those people because it had to be seen to apply the law fairly, regardless of nationality.

Citizens from a total of 40 countries were deported. They were sent back after being served with deportation orders signed by the Minister. Some went voluntarily and by arrangement, while others were forced deportees.

The new figures are released at a time when the rate of forced deportations being carried out by the Garda has greatly accelerated.

Three specially chartered planes have been used in the last two months to deport nearly 180 Moldovans, Nigerians and Romanians.

A 30-strong team of gardaí and medical staff travelled on each of the three planes, with a forward party travelling ahead to organise the necessary repatriation paperwork at each destination.

All of those deported had failed to avail of the opportunity to return voluntarily to their country of origin. Some had even assumed false identities in an attempt to remain on.

However, they were detained following Garda raids all over the State, and some were held in prison for up to a week before being deported.

While the Garda National Immigration Bureau is responsible for executing deportation orders once they have been signed by the Minister, the Garda have no control over who is deported.

Garda sources say the mass-deportation of large groups of non-nationals is the cheapest and least labour-intensive option available.

In the past, when gardaí have accompanied individuals on commercial flights, some deportees have created disturbances on the flight in an attempt to force the plane to turn around.

Phil_321

As I mentioned on this thread earlier I have an American friend who has never set foot in this country but has been able to obtain Irish citizenship (through the grand-parent rule) and is quite happy about that because she wanted to work in Paris. I personally feel that someone who has been born here has a much stronger case for attaing Irish citiszenship than someone who is relying on an accident of ancestral heritage.

Did anyone read the Sunday Times article yesterday about the Chinese woman who was advised by her lawyer to give birth to her child in Ireland so as to gain citizenship for the child. Even though she had no intention of ever living here. The article also pointed out that this child's children and grandchildren will be entitled to Irish citizenship! So this leads to the situation you described above. Except that it's not an accident, it's deliberate.
So the problem isn't just with asylum seekers, it's with non-EU citizens coming to Ireland to give birth and then having the right to stay anywhere in Europe because there child is an Irish citizen.

This citizenship policy was a part of the Good Friday agreement, so Nationalists from Northern Ireland could have Irish citizenship.

And can someone please tell me why should we have a different policy on this issue than the other members of the EU?