Separation of Church and state?

Our man in Havana

I am aware that there was a consitutional ammendant in 1973 to separate church and state. Some 30 years down the road I feel there has been very little separation of the church from state affairs.

Take these points:

1. There is a prayer said every day in the Dail. If we are a secular state then god has no place in the running of the state's affairs. If I was a TD I would object to the saying of prayers parliament.

2. Our national broadcaster RTE still carries the angleous which is a catholic call for prayer. Another example of the church's invovemnt in state affairs.

3. The church's function of registering marraiges which is not their job. This is probably where they inferfere the most. I think it's time to strip them of this function and allow the state to be the only body that can register marraiges. Make it compulsory for a civil marraige before any church functions are carried out.

4. Their involvement in education. I would summise that 99% of schools in this country are run by the church. I don't think that the church should own schools and impose their ethos on us. I am currently looking for a secular school and can't find one. Is it not time for the state to establish and run secular schools?


I am looking forward to an interesting debate.

007

MeatProduct

I am in complete agreement with you Mr. Bond.

The angelous has always bothered me, it has no place on public television, especially before the news, like there is some sort of link beteen the news and the church?

I am a very strong supporter of educational reform. What we have now is terribly one-sided. Children should be introduced to the major religions, be made aware that there are many minor religions and also informed that there is no scientific proof for any of these religions.

This country needs to wake up. I recently found a christian booklet in my post box. The crap that was contained in that document, aimed at children, apalled me. Can anyone imagine if I posted a lot of booklets discussing the merrits of satanism and aimed it at children? It's a very dangerous game.

Good topic.

Nick

JohnK

I fully agree with all the above.

Kappar

I am aware that there was a consitutional ammendant in 1973 to separate church and state. Some 30 years down the road I feel there has been very little separation of the church from state affairs.

The amendment was not a disestablishment amendment all it did was remove the "Special Position of the Catholic Church" This does not mean secularisation.


I am not a proponent of anti-disestablishmentarinism ((sp?) Never thought I would use that word) I don't want to go down a road however of say the state not being able to give money to charity because it is affiliated with one religion or another or having to do other things that in the long run are worse for society.

1. There is a prayer said every day in the Dail. If we are a secular state then god has no place in the running of the state's affairs. If I was a TD I would object to the saying of prayers parliament.

I see this when I watch the Dáil Beo on TG4 and I was surprised that this happened. I would object to this as well if I was in the Dáil. However, I am a Catholic and would only being objecting on principle not that I don;t want to say it.

The church's function of registering marraiges which is not their job. This is probably where they inferfere the most. I think it's time to strip them of this function and allow the state to be the only body that can register marraiges. Make it compulsory for a civil marraige before any church functions are carried out.

One can have a Civil marriage exclusively, As far as I am aware Any religion can register a marriage thus the state is not sponsoring any religion and with a civil ceremony the state is not sponsoring religion at all.

Their involvement in education. I would summise that 99% of schools in this country are run by the church. I don't think that the church should own schools and impose their ethos on us. I am currently looking for a secular school and can't find one. Is it not time for the state to establish and run secular schools?

The church own most of the land the schools are on it would cost the state huge amounts of money to secularise schools. I would be in favour of secularisation in schools but it cannot be achieved all that easily

Also the day that is in it (Good Friday) the state has enshrined Catholic Dogma in its laws namely not buying alcohol on this day it discrimination and a removal of civil liberties to not have religion forced upon oneself.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
3. The church's function of registering marraiges which is not their job. This is probably where they inferfere the most. I think it's time to strip them of this function and allow the state to be the only body that can register marraiges. Make it compulsory for a civil marraige before any church functions are carried out.

This is a misunderstanding. A civil marriage takes place as a part of a church wedding. It's every individual's choice whether to get married in a registry office, or in one of the religious institutions (not exclusively the Catholic Church) authorised by the state to perform the function of marriage.

4. Their involvement in education. I would summise that 99% of schools in this country are run by the church. I don't think that the church should own schools and impose their ethos on us. I am currently looking for a secular school and can't find one. Is it not time for the state to establish and run secular schools?

Who's going to pay for that?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

MeatProduct

Originally posted by daveirl
Also I'd love to see independent schools but that just isn't practical at all. The Church funded so many of the schools it's just not possible to buy them all back.

That is the sad truth of it. It's not practical. They have a monopoly on the souls of children as it were.

Nick

Our man in Havana

One can have a Civil marriage exclusively, As far as I am aware Any religion can register a marriage thus the state is not sponsoring any religion and with a civil ceremony the state is not sponsoring religion at all.

No, this is not the case. Muslim marraiges cannot be registered as Moron marraiges are not recongised by the state.

Boston

You really believe teh church has the same control over the state it had 30 years ago? 30 years ago a bill couldn't be passed in the dial without the church's backing. 30 years ago if you pissed off the church you life was over. 30 years ago cannon laws was put ahead of the law of the land.

Trebor

religion should be a choice and not be forced upon people.

if people want to chose not to drink today then they shouldn't go to the pub. they should not be all closed by law!

the entire contry shuts down for this weekend and the Dail get yet another holiday.
It's no wonder nothing happens in this country for years. it takes them so long to catch up after each holiday.

yankinlk

Originally posted by Kappar
The church own most of the land the schools are on it would cost the state huge amounts of money to secularise schools. I would be in favour of secularisation in schools but it cannot be achieved all that easily

Hold on a second! Why do we hear then that the government needs to spend more money on schools? Why are they blamed for not rebuilding/fixing the run down buildings? Why not the church? Does the church only own the land and the government own the buildings?

(Why not let the church give back the land in exchange for the government not ruling huge cash payments against all the child abuse by preists?)

Sleepy

Why not let the church give back the land in exchange for the government not ruling huge cash payments against all the child abuse by preists?)

This is my biggest grudge against the Catholic church. They preach that you should help others and yet control enough wealth to put an end to famine, disease and poverty many times over. Absolute perfect example of hypocrisy. Ever wonder why the gospel of St. Thomas wasn't accepted by the church?

"The Kingdom of God is within you (and all about you), not in buildings of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift a stone and you will find me."

IMHO, all the church's assets in this country should be seized by the state as reparitions for their almost systematic abuse of children put into their care and concealment of perverts.

Trebor

Originally posted by Sleepy
IMHO, all the church's assets in this country should be seized by the state as reparitions for their almost systematic abuse of children put into their care and concealment of perverts. [/B]

I concur

MeatProduct

Originally posted by Sleepy
IMHO, all the church's assets in this country should be seized by the state as reparitions for their almost systematic abuse of children put into their care and concealment of perverts.

I'm in total agreement.

Nick

chill

Originally posted by Sleepy
IMHO, all the church's assets in this country should be seized by the state as reparitions for their almost systematic abuse of children put into their care and concealment of perverts. [/B]

Here here !!!!

vorbis

have some of ye lost the plot? They're not all perverts. The vast majority have made an immeasurable contribution to education in this country. Most church run schools are now fairly secular.

I went to a christian brothers school and religion class was focused mainly on history of the major religions. The fact is most of ye are carrying a chip on your shoulders about the church. We live in an information age, its not like students will only hear views from teachers. Indocintration simply doesn't occur in church schools nowadays.

The registering of marriages by the Catholic Church??? This is a ludricous complaint. Its mainly for convenience since the wedding is BEING held in the church. To withdraw this right would be religous persecution imo.

Also who is the Angelus affecting? A one minute programme for the majority religion in this country? Oh the oppression! If you feel offended by it switch to BBC news for that minute. The prayer in the Dail is a bit strange and is probably not needed.

Our man in Havana

Most church run schools are now fairly secular.

I would disagree. Prayers, need I say more. Morning prayers, Grace etc.....

The registering of marriages by the Catholic Church??? This is a ludricous complaint. Its mainly for convenience since the wedding is BEING held in the church. To withdraw this right would be religous persecution imo.

Take France as an example where marriages may not be registered by ANY church, a civil wedding is compulsory. That's what I mean for here. No discrimation at all.

Also who is the Angelus affecting? A one minute programme for the majority religion in this country? Oh the oppression! If you feel offended by it switch to BBC news for that minute.

Why should the national broadcaster be promoting one religion. Why should I be forced to change channel to avoid it? Time to scrap it I say!

Memnoch

you forgot to mention the real issues where the government's policies seem heavily reliant on religious doctirne..

eg abortions
rights of homosexuals
etc etc

Turkey

There is a lot of very strange thinking going on here.
I am not what I would call religious, but like most people my wife and I wanted to get married in a church, I got to tell you that both of us found the day fairly stressful.
but because it is suddenly cool to knock religion, some of you want the majority,yes the majority of couples to go thru' another marraige, no doubt for another fee, as well. FFS!
I do not see what the problem is with prayers in school, apart from them, probally being a waste of time, no doubt you can think of more productive ways of wasting time.
As for in the Dail, there I do belive it is a total waste of time, because the chances of reminding those c**ts that their obligations are to others apart from themselves are about the same as me walking on the moon.:D
Someone mentioned 'moron' marraiges, I hope that was a mistake and not a deliberate raciest comment.
I must admit I find the RC churches interference in the running of the real world very annoying, so I treat their effulent outpourings in the same way as I treat a lot of extrem left and right wing garbage. It's best ignored.
That magazine/newspaper that sometimes flutters down from heaven I find most benifical, usually when lighting the fire.:D
The reality is that the RC church now has little influence on us in this country, [I assume that this is the religion that most whinge about,] including in school, only a few days ago my sons religion teacher thought it would be a good idea for the class to go to that peice of mel gibson sh**e, I objected, my son did not go, 40 years ago I might not have had that choice.
Anyway to try and address the original post:
1] The prayer in the Dail is probally tradition, [I must check]don't sweat it , it would be a lot worse if done on bended knee facing Mecca, then we would have something to worry about, most of them 166 chancers probally only mumble incorerently anyway, having long forgotten any of the words.
2] I have often objected to this 1 single minute of religious observance on the box, then I grew up. I then decided it would be better to object to some of the real cr*p that RTE dish up, which lasts a lot longer, late late show, faircity, ect, ect.
3] All the major churches in this country register marraiges, it is just not an issue, it just saves the victims, the bride and groom, a lot of hassle.
4] The 99% involvment strikes me as being off somewhat, I see very little involvment of the church in the education of my sons,they were much more involved, or seemed to be, 30-40 years ago.
To be honest, I think it is better to have an agency outside of the government involved in running schools, could you imagin someone like bush having total control of what was being thought to our kids?

TomF

I love this kind of initiating question and the subsequent responses because it all helps me sort the various kinds of nuts who post on the board into their proper categories (padded-cells?).

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond

1. There is a prayer said every day in the Dail. If we are a secular state then god has no place in the running of the state's affairs. If I was a TD I would object to the saying of prayers parliament.

I don't see a problem with the prayers, they mean nothing to agnostics or atheists who are T.D's.
The fact that the vast majority of elected T.D's are christians, should mean, that the public has no problem with them saying their prayers...
( They may have lots of problems with everything else that they do )

Our national broadcaster RTE still carries the angleous which is a catholic call for prayer. Another example of the church's invovemnt in state affairs.

Thats actually been secularised to an extent, in that it's now more of a time for reflection ( on the TV at least ) than a call to prayer.
Contrast the situation with that of NI or GB where the national anthem asks GOD to save the head of one particular church and where you cannot become either head of state or Prime minister ( as far as I'm aware ) if you are catholic.

The church's function of registering marraiges which is not their job. This is probably where they inferfere the most. I think it's time to strip them of this function and allow the state to be the only body that can register marraiges. Make it compulsory for a civil marraige before any church functions are carried out.

Thats the way it is in France, and I'd agree with you.

Their involvement in education. I would summise that 99% of schools in this country are run by the church. I don't think that the church should own schools and impose their ethos on us. I am currently looking for a secular school and can't find one. Is it not time for the state to establish and run secular schools?

Are protestant schools, not secular enough?
Can your kids not abstain from the religous teaching in them if you want? Theres at least one in most towns.

gandalf

Originally posted by TomF
I love this kind of initiating question and the subsequent responses because it all helps me sort the various kinds of nuts who post on the board into their proper categories (padded-cells?).

Just like I love these kind of posts Tom. It lets me know who I should be watching for the next ban. If you have an opinion on this topic post it but please don't post another response like this again or I will take action

Gandalf.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Originally posted by daveirl
Incorrect. There is a huge problem with the parliament of a country endorsing one religion over another. Would you still think it would be OK if we had Muslim or Jewish T.Ds. Would they be allowed a prayer also, or would they just have to ignore it like the agnostics or atheists. The vast majority of TDs are men, but there would be uproar if they collectively discriminated against the women TDs in such a way.

Well the prayers that they say aren't exclusively catholic are they?
The don't say the Rosary for instance do they?
Given that the Vast majority of the country believe in the same Christian God in some shape or other, irrespective of whether they are Church go-ers or not, then the TD's are only reflecting the make-up of the country.
According to the census for instance, only 200,000 approx of the Four odd million population of the Republic stated that they were not Christian
Regarding Tony Blair, afaik, he's a methodist, but the rest is correct, he goes to Mass etc and Cherie and the family are practising catholics.
But if Blair turned, there would be a constitutional crisis, probably with paisley heading to the law courts

Sparks

Originally posted by Earthman
Well the prayers that they say aren't exclusively catholic are they?

No, but they are exclusively christian.

Given that the Vast majority of the country believe in the same Christian God in some shape or other,

Stop there. According to the census, the second-largest religious group in the country is not christian, it's the non-religious. Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists and so on.
And by quite a margin.
And that's not counting non-practising catholics.
The Association of Irish Humanists has an article on this...

PHB

If i'm catholic and I want to send my kids to religous schools whats wrong with that?

There are both private and public religous schools so its not unfair to rich people.

If you can't find a secular school I suggest you look at hell of a lot harder, I don't know how you can't find one.

Theres are 4 schools in my locality, two private religous, two secular public.

ANyway in a public school you can choose to opt out of religion class.

---

Also non-religous is the biggest group yes.

but if you add up all the other groups that believe in a christian god, you'd once again have a majority

Sparks

Originally posted by PHB
If i'm catholic and I want to send my kids to religous schools whats wrong with that?

Nothing.
But if I'm a humanist and want to send my kids to a secular school, and the only ones within a two hour drive are run by the Christian Brothers or the Jesuits or the Holy Faith Convent or whatever, then there is a problem.

If you can't find a secular school I suggest you look at hell of a lot harder, I don't know how you can't find one.

Probably because you're privileged in that you live near some. The majority of people don't have that option.

Also non-religous is the biggest group yes.
but if you add up all the other groups that believe in a christian god, you'd once again have a majority

I would dearly love to see you doing that. I'm sure it'd go down well in Belfast
Fact is, they are disparate groups who agree on little even on a fundamental religious level. (Hell, they can't even agree on who was in the family of their principal Messiah!)
Adding them together, especially when considering a religious matter, is invalid.

ferdi

NOFX
Title: The Seperation Of Church and Skate
Album: The War on Errorism


Lost in a sea of combat boots
Flush the bouncers with wasted youth
When did punk rock become so safe?
When did the scene become a joke?
The kids who used to live for beer and speed
Now want their fries and coke
Cursing and birds are not allowed
In fact, let's keep noise levels down

Must separate the church and skate

Why don't we put pads on the kids?
Helmets, head gear and mouth pieces
Then we could pad the boards and walls
Put cameras inside bathroom stalls
We make sure only nice bands play
Make every show a Matinee
Teach kids to be all they can be
and we could sing My Country Tis' of Thee
Sweet land of liberty

When did punk rock become so safe?
I know it wasn't Duane or Fletcher
Who put up the barricades
Like a stake in the heart
Somehow we got driven apart

I want conflict, I want dissent
I want the scene to represent
Our hatred for authority
Our fight against complacency
Stop singing songs about girls and love
You killed the owl, you freed the dove
Confrontation and politics
Replaced with harmonies and shticks
When did punk rock become so tame?
These ****ing bands all sound the same
We want our fights, we want our thugs
We want our burns, we want our drugs
Where is the violent apathy?
These ****ing records are rated G

When did punk rock become so safe?

Originally posted by Sparks
No, but they are exclusively christian.


Stop there. According to the census, the second-largest religious group in the country is not christian, it's the non-religious. Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists and so on.
And by quite a margin.

I simply counted up, the numbers declaring themselves for any of the christian religions and subtracted the rest.
The rest came to about 200,000.
I have no way of knowing how many non practising catholics, still believe in God, except that anecdotally there are many.
So thats where I am getting, my assumption that the prayers said in the Dáil reflect the beliefs of the vast majority of the country.
Incidently I was in the most popular take-away in town last night and do you know what nine out of ten orders were?
Fresh cod and chips regardless of age...I thought that was kind of sweet as it's a Roman Catholic edict for Good Friday isn't it?

Originally posted by Sparks

But if I'm a humanist and want to send my kids to a secular school, and the only ones within a two hour drive are run by the Christian Brothers or the Jesuits or the Holy Faith Convent or whatever, then there is a problem.

You would have similar problems Sparks , if you were a moslem, theres about 20,000 in the country isn't there?
Mostly concentrated in Dublin, So I suppose they can go to Roebuck, but what of a family in Baltinglass or summat?
Logistics don't cater well for minorities.

Trebor

the point of the state is to do what is in the best interest of the people.
not to follow outdated church policies, what ever church that may be.

by having one religion running the majority of the schools in this country the state is basically saying that if your not a catholic you don't get an educatioin, unless you can afford a private education. IIRC to get into a catholic school you have to be baptised. this means then that people are getting their children baptised so as to be able to get into the local schools. thus giving the church inflated numbers of followers.