Arrgh.. The phone bill will be huge or else no Email.

watty

A few years ago our phone bill nearly tripled. proir to this for 4 years the Internet access had been perfect.

Personal experience, Examination of Phone bill, calling Eircom and our logs on the Attic server revealled that the phone line had deteriated for Modem use.

1) Mail server automatically dials in middle of night to ftech email. If it couldn't connect, then it retried in about 10 seconds time.

2) Every dialup attempt was anwsered. But mostly the remote "modem/server" immediately dropped the line.

3) Line dropping and then multiple attempts to reconnect while browsing.

4) Each time the call is anwsered, EVEN if immediately dropped by remote, you get billed 3 minutes call.

We tried different ISPs, different modems, new numbers etc. Eircom kept offereing HiSpeed ISDN as a solution. They claimed to change line (since they didn't put new wire into house, I don't know what they changed.

They claimed that it wasn't their problem that the ISP server would answer and hangup. (Also Eircom). We have to pay the 3minutes call billing per failled attempt, BECAUSE THE CALL IS ANSWERED!

They only legally obliged to provide voice.

Eventually we ordered the Chorus "Wireless loop" phone. Three days later it was installed and the exact same modem, house wiring, PC, SW, and ISP (Eircom) connected first time everytime and with 49K and ZERO errors every call.

Two years later Chorus is turned off as they lose the Licence!

Comreg contacted by Fax and they ring me.

1) Yes, till end of april no alternative to Eircom for line
2) Even then it will actually be an Eircom Line, wholesale rented.
3) No, Eircom can change a a perfect line to one no use for modem (i.e. Carrier system), without warning and only need to ensure voice working
4) We agree that on provision of actual phone circuit there is no competition and no standard of service for modem and it isn't very nice. Sorry.


After a week of having the Eircom line back:

1) The modem NEVER succeeds on first attempt. A less than 3 minute call for Email check etc is ALWAYS 2 to 6 calls = UP TO 18 minutes charge.

2) Line frequently drops during call. On Email, this means no repeat attempt by server for up to 24hrs. Downloads impossible.

3) Typical connect line speed is up to 41K compared with 14K to 22K two years ago, but multiple attempts and drop out of line make browsing nearly impossible.


I have reported Line to Eircom.

They are charging me EUR 130 for reconnection even though the reason we left Eircom was poor service.

This is not refundable if line doesn't work.

They will charge (they say) 57 Eur odd if tests reveal line is OK for Voice.

The last two years prove I don't need cost of ISDN or Broadband at home, simply an Internet connection that works (call charges per month for Email/browsing were about EUR15 to EUR20 pm, a quarter of Broadband, and ISDN would have those SAME call charges plus 2.5times the line rental).


So where do I go from here?

Pickup all my family email at work and bring it home on laptop and redestribute it?

No boards.ie at evenings & weekends?

No XP updates etc at home?


The number of people with modems that get offered Eircom HiSpeed and/or experience deterioating analog dialup over last few years is high enough to suspect a SCAM! (Which would not be actually illegal!).

Their phone system *DOES* tell them who is using a modem and if it is Data or Fax.


ISDN uses the *SAME* copper wire to exchange and the box on the wall is effectively a 144K modem. ISDN indeed *WILL* cost your 2.5 times Line Rental, with *NO* savings on calls. For a single channel, there is un-noticable increase in performance compared with 56K analog on a "good" phone line. Two channels is twice as fast, but twice the call bill. No time saving on browsing and only 50% to 75% saving on call charges on TWO channels used for large downloads.

There ARE advantages to ISDN, but not for most users.


Broadband etc only makes economic alternative at EUR 20 per month or less and is not available here (Eircom threshold 362 and u need an EIRCOM account number to signup and reduce it. The villlage is unlikly to have that number of Internet users).

MagicBusDriver

Get ISDN. It only an extra 10 euro a month. I assumed you have checked the internal wiring.

watty

Save money: it's cheaper to rent eircom hi-speed than two standard phone lines. A hi-speed line cost 37.50 (inc. VAT) per month and two standard lines cost 45 (inc. VAT) per month.
Surf smart: at evenings and weekends, surf the Internet at only 1.26c (inc. VAT) per minute.*

Cost

Monthly rental: 37.50 (inc. VAT). Connection: 119.99 (inc. VAT).

* Minimum call charge of 6.35c (inc. VAT) after which per second pricing applies to all calls.

I see that because they have raised ordinary Analog Line rental to Astronomic hieghts, (22.5 Eur) it is now "only" 15 Euro more expensive.

Why should I pay ANY extra to have what I used to have from Eircom 3 years ago and Chorus 1 week ago (not Powernet, just an analog phone socket)?

BTW my Chorus line rental was just under 14Euro per month, so even without Internet access or ISDN, I'm now paying an extra 10 Euro a month.

spongebob

Originally posted by watty
The number of people with modems that get offered Eircom HiSpeed and/or experience deterioating analog dialup over last few years is high enough to suspect a SCAM! (Which would not be actually illegal!).

Comreg defined Functional Internet Access at 0k last year (it used to be a whopping 2.4k) in order to facilitate this scam Watty. At least you were entitled to connect up to then, at 0k you are entitled to feck all. Comreg are committed through the excellence of their personnel to deliver you feck all as well, you will no doubt be glad to hear that they are well ahead of target.

They thought that 2.4k or higher "would not be helpful at this time " ....without mentioning who they were helping. I would strongly advise you to check out Irishwan

M

watty

I've have a WiFi dish on my house. Other than Limerick Area "network DOOM" etc and other stuff I'm not interested in the "public" WAN is not at this time a way to get Internet. It is Computer equivalent of CB.

(I'm not disparaging it. For those involved it is a lot of fun and zero ongoing cost).

Almost anyone charging for Internet via WiFi is illegal, unless it is a commercial licenced service (30 such licences handed out last year, but NONE are 2.4Ghz WiFi).

Urban Weigl

watty, selling internet service on 2.4ghz is not illegal. You only need a license to operate in licensed bands, such as 3.5ghz, for which those 30 licenses you are referring to were awarded. You should be able to find someone on the WAN who is willing to share his internet connection, perhaps for a small monthly fee to contribute to its cost.

watty

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
watty, selling internet service on 2.4ghz is not illegal. You only need a license to operate in licensed bands, such as 3.5ghz, for which those 30 licenses you are referring to were awarded. You should be able to find someone on the WAN who is willing to share his internet connection, perhaps for a small monthly fee to contribute to its cost.

No. I'm afriad you are Misinformed. It is a licence condition of the "licence free" WiFi gear that no charge is made for carriage of information or access etc.

It is the same with LEGAL CB (27MHz AM 5W) or LEGAL PMR446 (UHF 446MHz FM 500mW) etc, you can't charge for any provided service.

Only a LICENCED operator may charge for *ANY* kind of cabled or wireless communication or telecom service.

The licence is NOT JUST for the radio spectrum, but indicates usually the kind of service(s) that can or must be offered. (You can lose a licence by NOT offering sufficient quantity of the required services per area! Chorus just did for Wireless Loop Phone System.)

For Amatuer Radio (called "Wireless Experimenters" in Ireland) the restrictions are even tighter:
1) No Encryption (though Wireless LAN at 200Mbps is legally possible).
2) No 3rd party message passing at all, except for Emergency Services.
3) No operation in or near Harbours, Esturies, airports (though "near" is not defined).
4) Frequent identification of station.


Such radio devices also as cordless Barcode scanners, wireless microphone, R/C cars, cordless phones etc arn't actually really licence free. All *LEGAL* in ireland wireless devices you don't need a licence for are actually "pre-licenced" with conditions listed on Comreg's Web Site.

Mobile Phones of course operate under the licence of the Operator/Provider.

Tenshot

Silly thought, but have you tried another modem on the line? Might provide a more reliable connection.

(I also feel bound to point out that ISDN connections have far lower latency than the equivalent 56K connection, which makes overall response time for web surfing etc feel a lot quick, even though the bps rate is only about 25-30% faster.)

bminish

Originally posted by watty
No. I'm afriad you are Misinformed. It is a licence condition of the "licence free" WiFi gear that no charge is made for carriage of information or access etc.

Where??

watty

Originally posted by bminish
Where??

Ring Comreg if you can't find it on their site.

If what they tell you is "nicer" than what I suggest, possibly you have got someone in wrong dept and get it in writing

Technically if you string a wire thorugh hedge for baby intercom and then charge for Childmiding next doors baby you may be breaking at least 3 laws

bminish

Originally posted by watty
Ring Comreg if you can't find it on their site.

If what they tell you is "nicer" than what I suggest, possibly you have got someone in wrong dept and get it in writing

Technically if you string a wire thorugh hedge for baby intercom and then charge for Childmiding next doors baby you may be breaking at least 3 laws

Comreg's web site implies different.

It seems to me that most (All?) community owned wan projects would come under the following exemption 03/90

regards
Brendan

watty

Originally posted by Tenshot
Silly thought, but have you tried another modem on the line? Might provide a more reliable connection.

(I also feel bound to point out that ISDN connections have far lower latency than the equivalent 56K connection, which makes overall response time for web surfing etc feel a lot quick, even though the bps rate is only about 25-30% faster.)

I doubt that is significant.

End to end (user to user without Internet) only 33K max is possible. 56K is only possible into ISP / Server connected to a Digital Exchange as it is a quasi single channel (USA) ISDN mode anyway.

latency on Satellite links is horrid though.

No, I tried lots of modems before (I worked for a Computer /IT company before). The current hardware wouldn't reliably work with more than 9,600 Baud two years ago (22K coonect spped was typical). We had two years of zero error 49K on the Chorus analog socket on their "wirelss loop". Now we are back to Eircom line (which they insist on charging almost 130 Euro to reconnect). The connect speed is 41K often, but unrelaiable and multiple connect attempts (each billed as 3 minute call!) needed.

ISDN does "connect" very fast compared with the 21 seconds possible on analog line. About 2 seconds.

Anyhow I don't NEED more speed, or always on or lower latancy at home. I'd only pay for broadband if it was a similar cost to the Internet online time part of my phone bill (15 to 20 Euro per month). Even 28K would be "fine" if:
1) It always connected first time
2) It stayed connected till I "hang up".
3) Low to zero error rate.

ISDN always has zero errors, so a "noisy" 56K analog connection (typically 40 to 44K bps) can actually be 1/2 speed of 64K, or less. But the latency difference actually browsing is not significant.

Using premises to premises NON-INTERNET direct dialup ISDN with 2 channels and NT/Win2K/Xp/2003 "built in" compression with say Accounts Package, a throughput data rate approaching 200K bps full duplex can be achieved. Costly call though. But for occasional use more secure and cheaper than 2 x ADSL and Virtual Priviate LAN over Internet (Much lower latancy too). A pair analog modems is likely to get 19K to 33K with 22K typical in same application. So definately ISDN is better for that.

Also ISDN can have 12 numbers at reasonable cost and CAPI 2.0 on NT/Win2000/XP etc can then route call to a workstation or application based on any combination of dialled inward number, source number and Voice / Data / Analog Fax or Digital Fax type call. This kind of SoHo flexibily for Data/ Internet / Fax / Answering / Voice call etc on only two channels is what ISDN is brilliant for.

But a waste of money for small volume email / occasional browsing.

Broadband was 5 years ago unavailable, then 200 Euro, then 90 now maybe possible for under 40 depending on area.. So it may get to price point, but never be as available as ISDN.

viking

Hi Watty,

Mail server automatically dials in middle of night to ftech email

No boards.ie at evenings & weekends?

If you are only going to be accessing the net off-peak then why not sign up with UTVip Lite? For a tenner, you wont get charged for your server redialling. Plus cheaper than eircom calls.

I know it won't solve your problems in the long-term but it might be a stop-gap solution in the mean time...

viking

<edit>
Just noticed that UTV's Lite package also lets you dial up during the day, but it is limited to 30 hours per month
</edit>

watty

But if I was going to pay extra I'd be better off with ISDN?

I get my various "paid mode" Internet accounts free. All I need is a phone line that works. I actually get a reduction on local call rate for internet access.

Signing up to UTV ip will still be the same phone line and expensive line rental. I'll still get charged whatever UTV's minimum call charge is every time the remote server answers call and hangs up again.

Yesterday I rang Eircom andf had Loooong discusssion where they claimed line was passing test (impossible to fully test unless there is a special phone socket in subscriber -- I designed a remote test phone outlet for BT in 1986).

Anyway mysteriously the Server picked up Email at 6 am and I was able to connect to Internet in normal time this morning 8.30 without the dreaded "Socket Error" or " Address not found" or "Time Out" errors appearing.

I shall watch carefully and examine my firewall dialler logs at Weekend.

seamus

Originally posted by watty
Signing up to UTV ip will still be the same phone line and expensive line rental. I'll still get charged whatever UTV's minimum call charge is every time the remote server answers call and hangs up again.

Not when you're on flat-rate. In fact, if it's busy when it dials once, it dials a different number the second time so you get through.

bkehoe

For entities providing a service to the general public, Comreg abolished the licence requirement last year under pressure from the EU (and even refunded those who had paid up), and introduced whats called a General Authorisation. This is free, and if your providing services to the public you simply fill it in and send it off to them. Community groups made up of members do not need this as they're classed as a private organisation. Access to all the networks affiliated with Irishwan is free to members, which is also free. Once on the network, you can then join in in contributing towards the cost of an internet connection. Still though, some of the wans are investigating the possibility of getting a general authorisation to future proof things and to aid in obtaining access to licenced bands for point to point links.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by watty
For Amatuer Radio (called "Wireless Experimenters" in Ireland) the restrictions are even tighter:
1) No Encryption (though Wireless LAN at 200Mbps is legally possible).
2) No 3rd party message passing at all, except for Emergency Services.
3) No operation in or near Harbours, Esturies, airports (though "near" is not defined).
4) Frequent identification of station.

Some amatuers in the UK have been given permission to use higher power on the 2.4GHz WiFi band. Here this has been refused - so you might have to go to 5.8GHz to get a longer link (license free but you must register with comreg)

Comreg used to charge £2,500 "administration fee" for the license requirement to share internet. Thankfully now gone.

Would sharing ISDN with a neighbour be an option - ie. is there any way to force each house to use only one of the channels and then split the bill ??
Not really an option unless you can convince the whole estate to chip in for a fraction/primary rate line a pabx (Linux VOIP ?) and a block of DDI numbers - then again with current line rental it's looking more feasible all the time.

http://www.asterisk.org/
http://www.gnophone.com/
List on http://www.digium.com/index.php?menu=software_products
Though you still have to pay comreg for a voice provider license

bminish

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Some amatuers in the UK have been given permission to use higher power on the 2.4GHz WiFi band. Here this has been refused - so you might have to go to 5.8GHz to get a longer link (license free but you must register with comreg)

What we amateurs are allowed do with the part of 2.4 Ghz that overlaps part of the 'Wifi' band is utterly irrelevant since we generally can't handle 3rd party traffic for non amateurs.

In Ireland per Comreg 02/77R3 we are permitted 14 dBw in the segment 2400 to 2540, this is a power of 25w measured at the output of the transmitter, there are no EIRP restrictions.
The primary amateur use of this section of spectrum is the amateur satellite service. In practice the amateur Satellite service and the terrestrial users don't give each other many problems. Satellite operation requires High gain antennas pointed skywards so interference to and from ground based users is minimal.

The amateur service is in Ireland a secondary user of this band, the primary user being Eircom's Rurtel equipment. Secondary users must not cause harmful interference to primary users but ISM users ('WiFi') must not cause inference to any licensed user.

In Ireland the 2300 to 2450 ghz band is not automatically granted to amateurs, we have to apply for it individually but even amateurs such as myself who are close to rurtel systems have had no trouble getting permission

In the UK 2300 to 2450 is automatically granted to all fully licensed amateurs with a maximum power of 26dBw (400w , Again with no EIRP limit ) Power levels this high in conjunction with high gain antennas are only needed for things like Moon bounce communication(using the moon as a passive reflector to enable long distance contacts to take place)

Most amateurs who are interested in using 802.11b do so under the ISM conditions (100mW EIRP etc) since these place no limits on type of traffic carried and with well engineered systems 100mW EIRP is plenty for most terrestrial links.

.Brendan (EI6IZ)

watty

Originally posted by seamus
Not when you're on flat-rate. In fact, if it's busy when it dials once, it dials a different number the second time so you get through.

The point is that I'm *NOT* getting "busy" now, nor 2 years ago. The call is actually answered, then due to line conditions the remote server hangs up. *ANY* phone provider will charge this as whatever their minumum call charge is.

With the *SAME* number on the Chorus phone line, almost always the call connected first time succesfully.

watty

Originally posted by bminish
In Ireland per Comreg 02/77R3 we are permitted 14 dBw in the segment 2400 to 2540, this is a power of 25w measured at the output of the transmitter, there are no EIRP restrictions.

Most amateurs who are interested in using 802.11b do so under the ISM conditions (100mW EIRP etc) since these place no limits on type of traffic carried and with well engineered systems 100mW EIRP is plenty for most terrestrial links.

.Brendan (EI6IZ)

Yes I applied and have had 2.4Ghz permission for up to 25W SSB, FM, AM etc, but only voice or data, NOT video. For reasons best understood by Comreg, no-one has got permission for video even on part of band not used by Video senders. Video senders have channels A, B, C and D. Channel A and B are "inside" the amateur band.

I'm baffled why 25W SSB at *ANY* ERP (say a 24db gain dish) is allowed and 1W FM video isn't allowed.

So for video I can only use commercial licence free "video senders" on the 2.4GHz.

You'd be a lunatic to have unencrypted WiFi access to your PC. Again, the 100mW "licence free" 802.11 wifi allows encryption. Amateur service does *NOT* allow any encryption whatsoever.

The permissions for fast scan video and band above 430Mhz/70cm have to be renewed every year. So I need to renew to continue experiments with FM Video and data (unencrypted) on 1.3Ghz and 10Ghz.

The 5.6Ghz is expensive, an old LNB can be modified to be a 10Ghz band 5mW to 10mW transmitter (big ERP on a 90cm dish) and any LNB can be used for receive.

73s de EI9FEB

oscarBravo

Originally posted by watty
The point is that I'm *NOT* getting "busy" now, nor 2 years ago. The call is actually answered, then due to line conditions the remote server hangs up. *ANY* phone provider will charge this as whatever their minumum call charge is.

Although I understand that this is not strictly speaking your issue, you're just plain wrong on this point. With a "flat-rate" service, calls to the Internet dial-up number are not charged until you've exceeded the allocated time.

Every month, I get an itemised bill from UTV, with all calls to their 1893 number charged at 0.00 - no minimum call charge or setup fee.

The line quality question is a disgrace, but hey - welcome to the e-hub.

watty

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Some amatuers in the UK have been given permission to use higher power on the 2.4GHz WiFi band. Here this has been refused - so you might have to go to 5.8GHz to get a longer link (license free but you must register with comreg)

Comreg used to charge £2,500 "administration fee" for the license requirement to share internet. Thankfully now gone.

Would sharing ISDN with a neighbour be an option - ie. is there any way to force each house to use only one of the channels and then split the bill ??
Not really an option unless you can convince the whole estate to chip in for a fraction/primary rate line a pabx (Linux VOIP ?) and a block of DDI numbers - then again with current line rental it's looking more feasible all the time.

The power is not an issue. I can "hear" plenty of 2.4Ghz WiFi from here.

Sharing ISDN is not practical, nor probabily strictly legal. It is technically possible and simple to bill if the "other guy" is only given an analog port from your own "POTS" adaptor.


You CAN legally share costs of a Wireless LAN and share internet access. But you can't charge a "customer" for it, without a licence. Some "operators" in Limerick have been "charging" for WiFi access, calling it a "donation". Also in Cork.

watty

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Although I understand that this is not strictly speaking your issue, you're just plain wrong on this point. With a "flat-rate" service, calls to the Internet dial-up number are not charged until you've exceeded the allocated time.

Every month, I get an itemised bill from UTV, with all calls to their 1893 number charged at 0.00 - no minimum call charge or setup fee.

The line quality question is a disgrace, but hey - welcome to the e-hub.

But I *ABSOLUTELY WON'T* pay extra for Internet access, which any such flat service requires.

I'm pointing out that *ANY* phone provider where *NO* special internet serivice is paid extra for will charge for these calls.

I pointed out to Eircom that They have the Digital Exchange and the Eircom ISP server, that there is *NO* modem at exchange and they have complete call records logs of both (as I do on my server of call time, status and connect time etc), yet *THEY* benefit financially due to the poor service, and their *OWN* logs show that while a call is "technically" answered, no connection to internet has taken place.

They argued that Eircom the ISP is a *COMPLETELY* separate company with *NO Connection* to Eircom the Phone provider. Also they only had to provide voice and had no obligation for modem access to work at all.

If we were talking a meal/hegine in a resturant here (one "company" cooking and the other "company" as the waiter serving) , the Enviromental Health Officer would laugh as he closed them down.

watty

Just to make it all more complicated I have signed up Esat as phone call provider.

I'm assured by Comreg that "someone" will be offering actual "line rental" as alternative to Eircom soon, maybe start of May. "whoever" it is will of course rent at wholesale rate from Eircom...

bminish

We are getting a long way off thread but all the special permissions I have ever had from comreg including my current permissions for all bands up to 24 ghz have been granted on a 3 year basis

I have never looked for permission to do Amateur TV, I'm too ugly!
.Brendan

watty

Originally posted by bminish
We are getting a long way off thread but all the special permissions I have ever had from comreg including my current permissions for all bands up to 24 ghz have been granted on a 3 year basis

I have never looked for permission to do Amateur TV, I'm too ugly!
.Brendan

Maybe because I'm greedy and have the ATV too.

Mostly I use test cards on PC or home-made MPEG2 stop motion. There isn't anything interesting to point the camcorder at!

oscarBravo

Originally posted by watty
But I *ABSOLUTELY WON'T* pay extra for Internet access, which any such flat service requires.

Depending on how much your Internet access is costing you, you could be cutting off your nose to spite your face - it's not that hard to clock up a tenner on Internet access. That is, of course, your prerogative.

I'm pointing out that *ANY* phone provider where *NO* special internet serivice is paid extra for will charge for these calls.

Fair enough, but that's not what you originally said.

watty

It's what I meant!

But if broadband gets 50% cheaper for entry level or what you get for a 10 Euro "flat rate" package is better, I'll jump one of those ways.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by bminish
I have never looked for permission to do Amateur TV, I'm too ugly!

Didn't stop ya gettin yer mug in a Sunday paper...

Ripwave

Originally posted by watty
The point is that I'm *NOT* getting "busy" now, nor 2 years ago. The call is actually answered, then due to line conditions the remote server hangs up. *ANY* phone provider will charge this as whatever their minumum call charge is.

With the *SAME* number on the Chorus phone line, almost always the call connected first time succesfully.

If you get any of the flat rate packages, then you won't be charged any extra, even if you dial in dozens of times. That's why it's being suggested as at least part of the solution.

(You might also want to configure your modem to connect at a lower speed - this should minimise any "retraining" issues).

jd

It seems somewhat odd that the modem never connects at the first attempt, but will on subsequent redials. The isp's access server don'yt differentiate (or know about) "first" or "second" dial up attempts