When Stupidity Attacks Part: one of many...

Lafortezza

I was playing in the Fitz on Monday evening, the €110 buy-in freezeout. I could just about afford it, but if I went out early then I'd be having a quiet week before next payday.

Having played in the Monday €110 game before I knew that the standard of poker was pretty damn high. Alot of goods players entered and there was sure to be a few stragglers from the Irish Open weekend. Sure enough there was plenty of English Accents floating about, and about 35 players sat down to play.

What I love about the Monday €110 game is that you start with 4000 in chips. The rounds of blinds last for 20 minutes, and start at 25-50. Four rounds later they are only at the 200-400 mark, which gives you over an hour of play with very small blinds relative to your stack. You can limp in with suited connectors in late position, J10 becomes a tempting hand to play, if you don't hit the flop adequately enough then its cost you a pittance to see the flop and you've no worries about dropping the hand.

Since its a freeze-out that people have paid €110 to enter, an "All-in" becomes a very powerful move. If you're slightly short on chips you don't want to move All-in with a big stack to act behind you, even if you've got AK or a similar good hand preflop. You can steal blinds with impunity in late position or if its folded around to the blinds, either blind can raise and steal. People are willing to accept that you've got a decent holding more often than not, knowing that if you're either caught out or have a monster then somebody is going home early.

Anyway. So I'm trundling along nicely after about half an hour, up to about 6000 chips after hitting high pair on the flop, betting and folding the opposition.
Then I look down to see JJ in my hand in late position. As people call and fold I think what would be a good amount to raise it. I want to fold all the limpers with Ax and Kx so I raise it 600 (blinds were 50-100). I get one caller.
Flop comes x-6-6. The early caller goes all in for about half my stack. I try to decide how strong my two pair is, he could have a six, having called my preflop raise with A6. He could have overcards AK and think I have AQ or A10 or a small pocket pair.
I call. He turns over A6, so my two pair are pretty far behind with 2 cards to come.

I hit a J on the turn for the house. Deep breaths all round.
From there on my stack continues to grow to about 15000, 2nd at my table. We move down to 2 tables and everyone tightens up considerably. People begin to steal blinds by raising big in late position. Everyone wants to make the final table.
I'm sitting pretty but after a few rounds the blinds start to eat into my stack a little. Since I've got a pretty tight table image after showing my good hands a few times, I begin to steal blinds with late raises. The guy to my right is getting frustrated because when he raises in the small blind I come over the top in the big blind and he's forced to throw it away. I show him AJ suited once, but decide not to show him my 82o the next time.

Down to the final table. It starts with 1st place down to 5th place paying out. The table agrees to take €100 off first prize to pay 6th so it works out at
6th: €100 5th: €180 4th: €250 3rd:€400 2nd: €750 1st: €1500
I'm aiming for third as I've a healthy stack.

Then it happens. I had been playing nice and tight all night, stealing when it was right to steal, making the correct moves, folding when I was behind. Then the Dumbness fairy comes along and clouts me on the back of the head with her wand.
In early position, with the blinds beginning to hurt, I look down to see KJ suited. Blinds are 1000-2000. I raise it to 5000, its folded around to the big blind, who thinks and thinks and finally calls...
The flop comes A-K-4. Somehow I know he doesn't have an Ace, but nevertheless he bets out.

I fall in love. My KJ suited becomes the most beautiful pair of cards I've ever seen. There's no way he's got this one. I know he has no Ace, so my Kings and good kicker must be in the lead.
I reraise him. He goes all in. I *just* about have him covered and we turn over our cards.
I flip my KJ, and he turns over K4. I get no help from turn or river and I'm down to 2000chips and I'm automatically all-in on the big blind. I get a 10 and a four, the small blind is the only caller and he shows bullets. I stand and leave collecting my €180 on the way out, never been so unhappy to make a slight profit on the night.

Why couldn't I lay down that KJ?? An overcard on the flop, he bets out, I should have realised I was behind and chucked it. I would have been still in a good position to get 4th or 3rd place. But no, after playing good poker all night, one mistake cost me an appreciable amount of cash. You live and learn I suppose but sometimes you really really want to kick yourself in the nuts...which is trickier than you think.

So if I see you in the Fitz or wherever and I say "Oh wait til you hear what happened to me last monday..." tell me to shut the fuck up. I deserve it.

dod

Certainly an intriguing read lafortezza, but I can honestly say I haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Hyzepher

Luke you seem to suffer from the same problems that I do - and probably many others. Concentration is the key to great poker - those who can concentrate for the entire night don't make mistakes like the one you had.

The one thing that I have learnt is that tournament play is not about winning pots - it's about survival. Now sometimes surviving means winning pots but that's a secondary concern.

Initially when the tournie starts survival isn't a major concern but when you get down to the last table survival should be the primary aim - especially with teh blinds so high. You do what you need to in order to survive each round. You don't play your hand just for the sake of it - it's either fold or prepare to go all-in - cause you will get a raise if someone plays. So you need to ask yourself one question when deciding to play a hand - Am I prepared to go all-in with this hand?

I suspect that the answer would be no to your situation on Monday - remember with a healthy stack in front of you it's not the large stacks that are the worry, it's the small stacks who are more likely to put all their chips in the centre.

btw - I am not suggesting that you become ultra, ultra, ultra-tight (just a tad looser than Pudding) but I am suggesting that each hand needs a lot of serious consideration before your chips go in to back them up

Hyzepher

Hobart

Why were you so sure he had not got an A?

Hyzepher

Originally posted by Hobart
Why were you so sure he had not got an A?

Well its there that the root of his problem started.

I think once the other guy re-raised then the hand was over and LaFortezza should have folded. I find that if the Big Blind calls a raise then they generally have an Ace or maybe a pair. The fact that this guy waiting a little before calling the initial raise would definitely lead me to believe that he had an Ace or pair. Once the Ace fell on the flop i would be out of there.

Hyzepher

Lafortezza

Originally posted by Hobart
Why were you so sure he had not got an A?

I'm not sure... I just knew...had a really strong feeling, and usually at a poker table if I get a strong feeling I go with it. I was pretty convinced he didn't have an Ace, guessed he had a king and thought my Jack kicker should have won it.

When I was thinking it through, I put him on something like K9 suited, I thought that he had me on pocket Q's J's or 10's...

The problem was that my preflop raise wasn't big enough.
He already had his 2000 big blind in, so 3000 more to call my raise of 5000 wasn't a huge step for him although with K4 he took a risk.

Once the flop came down though I should have chucked my hand, firstly because of the Ace, secondly because he bet straight out instead of checking to me.

Another mistake I made was that at the final table this same guy had been needling everyone, stealing blinds constantly, then showing muck cards. I got it into my head that maybe this guy was trying to bully me off the pot, but mostly my mistake was thinking I was ahead with my KJ.

Hobart

I have only ever played 3 serious games. 2 in the fitz and 1 in the merrion. Got to the last table in the merrion, was knocked out first tho. On all 3 occasions I made stupid stupid moves and ended up out, or v short stacked.

However I have "watched" quiet a bit, both on TV and in the clubs, and 1 thing I always notice is that the top players have like a 3rd 4th 5th sense with regards to their opponents cards. Just like you said it's a "feeling". I base my game on probability. In your case above I would have played your KJ suited. No doubt. Post flop I would have checked. I no, I no, that this is asking for trouble and if he raises (representing the A) I don't know what I would have done.

My first game in the Fitz was a "nervous" affair for me. I had read a good bit about poker here and did not feel I had the game for it. I got about 6 unplayable hands, 2 of which consisted of 9/4 o. Every time I folded the 9/4o the flop came with a 9-4-x, with the 9 the top card. What happened? 7th or 8th hand comes into me 9/4. I play. get the flop 9-4-Q. I go all in, so does Dev (I think it was him) he turns over QQ. I get a 4 on the river.

I suppose my point is that the beauty of the game is it's ability to kick the f**k out of you when you least expect it. He beat you with a 4. It happens. I don't think it was a stupid move on your part.

DeVore

Not sure I can fault your play Luke, you put him on King, small and thats what he had. It was fluke that his small was a 4. I probably would have dropped it with an over card and a bet into me but if you felt he didnt have an ace, you were right to call. Jeez... talk about complaining when you won 70 notes... man, shut the fuck up!

Hobart, you were ungodly lucky that night for a while. But playing 9,4o just because its come up a few times before is a fast way to having a smoke outside!

DeV.

Iago

I think Dev's right, it was the right call if you felt you had the best cards. At the end of the day this game is all about confidence, you either have it or you don't.

If you don't you'll find yourself dropping hands you should be playing, limping in when you should be raising big and so on.

You were unlucky to get caught out, and like dev I'd probably of folded as well, but I'd of beat myself up about it for the rest of the night!!

Got to trust your instincts or you might as well stop playing

Hobart

Originally posted by DeVore
Hobart, you were ungodly lucky that night for a while. But playing 9,4o just because its come up a few times before is a fast way to having a smoke outside!

DeV.

I agree, with regard to playing 9,4. However I was SB on that particular hand. You did not raise and I decided to play for cards. As the flop went over I had 2 pair. Ok I went a bit mad with the AI. But he who dares delboy......

In fairness to myself I don't think it was all luck that night. OK, that was the one hand I had a bit of luck on. Then again, it's a lot about luck, when you consider the flop. The skill comes into it post flop, mostly.

But then I played like a complete gobshite after the fo. But you live and learn and I will never, repeat never, make that mistake again.

However,as I said I don't think that lafortezza made a bad call with his KJs, when you factor in the "feeling" . I still don't think it was a mistke.

Hyzepher

Sorry, cant agree win Dev or Iago - and I think you know it too Luke. I would like to know the percentage of times that you put someone on a hand and they actually had it. The guy with the K4 did get very, very lucky and shouldn't have called the raise. But you were risking most of your chips - and your good play up to that point - on a chance that he didn't have an Ace.

So what if you had laid down that hand and it had something like K7 - tough, but you were still alive. Was the risk going to be worth it for one pot? - probably not.

Your own admission that your raise wasn't big enough is the crux here - cant see him playing k4 if you went all-in - this goes back to the system of being prepared to go all-in on any given hand at that point in the tournie. If you are prepared to go all-in on a hand then just do it with the first raise - at least the option of him folding is a greater one.

Hyzepher

Iago

You make a valid point hyzpeher and therein lies what I beleive to be the root of my problem.

I hate laying down hands, really really hate it. I've found that I'm doing it more and more in the Fitz though and for the most part I think I'm making the right decision, but a lot of my decisions are made on the basis of what I have v's what I believe the other person has v's what my gut feeling is about their past play..

If I feel good about a hand I'll play it, but within reason. I think it was a reasonable call, but then he lost the hand so what do I know

Lafortezza

Yeah the whole thing was a few mistakes thrown together.
1) My pre-flop raise was too small to stop the BB limping with pretty much anything.
2) When he raised after the flop I should have chucked, even if my feeling put him on Kx (and I was correct), there must have been a reason he bet so strong.
3) Reraising him after his flop bet. Basically I was saying "I am convinced I am ahead right now", when all the evidence was pointing the other direction.

Still you live and learn.

dropsy

I remember once being told that KJ was a 'taxi driver's hand' because if you played it often enough you'd be calling a taxi to take you home.

Lafortezza, did you give any consideration at all to either folding pre flop (as you were in early position with a hand that doesn't give you much in the way of 'nut's potential and is vulnerable to an overpair or higher kicker if u do make a pair) or just flat calling the blind and playing from the flop?

I know that KJs looks pretty but it's not really that strong a hand and could easily be folded from uder the gun.

Dropsy

Hyzepher

I dontthink his decision to play the KJ is in question, just the way he played it. He was trying to steal the blinds at worst - something yo have to do when your chips are hurting.

Hyzepher

dropsy

Originally posted by Hyzepher
I dontthink his decision to play the KJ is in question, just the way he played it.
Hyzepher

Dunno Hyzepher, IMO folding or flat calling were two viable options with that hand in that position. I wasn't questioning the decision to play the hand as much as asking had Lafortezza considered all the options before making the play. Doesn't sound like he was too short on chips. If stealing the blinds was the objective then I agree, maybe the raise was too low, but in general I would definitely consider limping or folding in the same position - of course, it's easy to say that in a post!

Lafortezza

Originally posted by dropsy
Dunno Hyzepher, IMO folding or flat calling were two viable options with that hand in that position. I wasn't questioning the decision to play the hand as much as asking had Lafortezza considered all the options before making the play. Doesn't sound like he was too short on chips. If stealing the blinds was the objective then I agree, maybe the raise was too low, but in general I would definitely consider limping or folding in the same position - of course, it's easy to say that in a post!

Hard to say. Its not the kind of hand I'd consider flat-calling from early position. I'm either going to raise it or drop it. The table was very aggressive, not many flops were seen, and there was constant raising from late position.

Had I just called from UTG then I would have been raised later, and KJ is not a calling hand when people are raising big. In this particular case my raise was obviously not big enough, as the Big Blind only had to call another 3000 on top of his 2000 blind to see a flop with a risky K4. Everyone else had folded.

Hyzepher

Well imo the correct play was all-in or fold. Flat calling is the last thing you want to do. Flat calling will encourage others to raise - then you need to throw the hand away, or others could represent the flop and again you need to throw the hand away.

By going all-in you put the difficult question on them - of course you run the risk of running into KK or AA but those are the risks when playing out of position.

I would only try and steal blind in one of 3 positions SB, BB or on the button - anything else is suicide.

Hyzepher

DeVore

I think Hyzepher is slightly misunderstanding what I was saying... I would have laid down KJ in that situation. I wouldnt have thought twice about it. Even if I suspect the guy is stone cold bluffing I'd have had to take my hat off to him for the balls to put the chips in there and live to fight another day.

Luke on the other hand felt he had top pair and was ahead. He was wrong but you cant be right all the time... given that he felt he was right he played fine. Yes he was wrong but wrong != stupid and its a marginal enough play....

After the preflop raise I would have suspected that the other guy had an ace or a decent pair, after the all in I'd have been willing to accept that he had played AJ or A10 and let him have it. K4 is a freak of luck but it could as easily have been an ace.

You are probably right that you should have raised bigger before the flop or just put it down. Personally I've no problem flat calling with KJ but then I like to see flops and come out big after them if I hit.... that way I dont lose too much if I dont and its easier to put down hands like that!

DeV.

DeVore

I would only try and steal blind in one of 3 positions SB, BB or on the button - anything else is suicide.

this is wise advice though there is one other position I will occasionally steal from and thats the very first position. Go reasonably big and whatever the flop brings bet out again. Its very risky but you can often get people thinking to themselves "he's got to be serious" and you can not only take the blinds but also a few callers who miss their flops... lunatic risky but it can work too

DeV.

Hyzepher

I think the point here is that Luke wasn't expecting to play the hand to a finish - he wanted everyone to fold - if he didn't then he is guilty of playing the wrong hand. So flat calling here is a deadly sin - believe me.

So the real mistake - and it was a mistake for what he was trying to do - was not going all-in or at least raising it much higher.

Hyzepher

Davey Devil

Have to say I'm passing that K,J everytime in that situation.

Edit: Don't feel so bad, if you can learn from your mistakes and still pick up some money it's not such a bad position to be in.

DapperGent

I wouldn't be folding KJ against a six-man table even in early position, against a ten or eleven man table that's a different story. Lafortezza said he was in early position but not under the gun (I think) that means he had a max of four people to act behind him. Frankly I like his raise a lot, if I or most people had been in the big with K4 it would have been an easy lay down even for only another 3000, I think it's a terrible call from the big blind.

The bad play I think is after the flop, with an Ace on the board it's an a stone cold lay down to a raise. You have to be putting him on Ace-small or two-pair even if he is an all-in happy asshole, he must have two-pair or ace-goodish kicker because he must be putting Lafortezza on an ace himself, maybe ace-ten. You have to be laying that shit down.