Teachers-Strike

Spunog UIE

Hey,
I presume that the teachers strike affects you or at least that your intrested in it for looking in here.
A friend of mine setup a discussion board to talk about it.
Think its worth a look.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/stopthestrikes

Thats all,
Gideon

Shinji

Bleh, Yahoo groups are impossible to have a decent discussion on

Why not suggest to your friend that Boards.ie would serve as a good forum for this? I'm sure that if the interest was there the Admins would set up a seperate board, akin to the CTYI and Belvedere boards...

Stephen

Yeah, this is an important issue. I may not be the best of students, but I have to do my leaving cert this year, just like thousands of others. I do want to get into college etcetera etcetera. While its nice to get a few days off because of the teachers' dispute, if this interferes with the actual exams/grading of the exams in any way, there'll be hell to pay. The teachers' public support is dwindling as it is, and if they push it any further I think they'll start to get outright hostility from the public.

Get some skillz, as Shinji would say...

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- Munch

Shinji

Shinji wouldn't say it in this instance. I have a lot of time for the ASTI strikers, they've been treated like utter sh|t by the media, the government, parents and students alike for years, and are now demanding that they be paid in line with the job they do and the qualifications they have.

Yes, it's a bit nasty for the kids doing their Leaving this year, but maybe this is what it takes for people to start appreciating what an utterly essential, amazingly important service teachers provide to society. In the long run this strike is VITALLY important, because right now the majority of people going into teaching are totally wrong for the job. The payscale for teachers is so slow, and capped so low, that it's not economic for most people with a decent degree to go into it as a career; as a result many young people who would like to teach, don't, and many who are unsuitable for the job, do, because they can't get a decent job elsewhere and the teaching profession is crying out for new people.

A simple if frivolous example; look at Who Wants To Be A Millionaire. There are regularly young teachers, in their twenties, on WWTBAM, and frankly, they are among the worst contestants on the show. Their general knowledge is appalling beyond belief, they don't have any genuine interest even in the subjects that they teach, and in general they really aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer - compare this to older teachers, in their 40s or 50s, who (in general) really know their stuff and have an interest in their chosen subjects as well as in education and knowledge in general.

When a teacher stands in front of a class, the futures of 25-30 young people are entrusted to him/her; quite literally the future of an entire generation. If the only people who are attracted into teaching are the scrapings of the barrel at university, then frankly, we as a society will be up sh|t creek without a paddle - or a canoe, for that matter - in 30 to 40 years. That's a much, much more worrying prospect than some minor disruption to the exams this year.

dardoz

RUBBISH

Look at it this way. When those teachers decided that they wanted to be teachers they knew what their salary would be, I mean , bloody hell, they get 3 months holidays a year. They knew what they were getting into the same as any1 does. So, Im sorry, it bolox. They should get back to their jobs like everyone else.

Asuka

dardoz, either youre missing the big picture or youre just plain stupid.

First of all, when the teachers decided they wanted to be teachers, it was a respectable career. The country wasnt doing that great and they were earning a steady salary. 10 years later, and theyre still earning the same salary... thats got to be wrong!
Our economy is heavily based on having a decent education system. Now, this may not have occured to you, but the teachers are slightly important in this education system. Apparently it hasnt occured to the government...
Getting back to the point on 'choice of career', i suppose you didnt notice that teachers arent in fact that numerous any more? No one in their right mind would train as a teacher now, whether they wanted to or not. Its not a feasible job prospect, and we are in fact running out of teachers.
3 months holidays? Most teachers under the age of 30 have to supplement their salaries during their holidays, either with part time jobs or by supervising or correcting the exams.
Just a couple of points, if you need more convincing tell me and ill post the whole lot tomorrow.

STRIKE, I tell ye, STRIKE FOR ALL YOURE WORTH!

As(5th year)ka

Paladin

Asuka, cut out the ignorance. Dardoz is entitled to his opinion without being insulted.

Personally, I think teachers deserve more money certainly, but at the same time I think they should be benchmarked. I dont think striking for the leaving cert exams is right.

They shot themselves in the foot when they refused to negotiate with the INTO and University professers. They basically refuse benchmarking which I believe should be vehemently enforced.
If they are hard working teachers then they have nothing to fear.

Already college proffessers will have benchmarking. What makes the ASTI so special that they cant be benchmarked?

They want more money without doing even the slightest thing extra for it. They get job security, short hours and long holidays. It IS a cushy job, but it does deserve better pay, which would make it more attractive as a career. But benchmarking is not going to make life tough for teachers, it simply would mean they have to do their job.

And shinji, in 30 or 40 years time, who's taxes will be paying teachers salaries? Yep. Todays students. There is no need to use them as pawns. The teachers are entitled to more money, almost everybody agrees that, but people also think they should be benchmarked, even the labour courts ffs! They are being unreasonable refusing benchmarking or ANY extra work.

As for your young teachers Vs old teachers argument, that is obviously just an opinion of yours, completely impossible to substantiate, and from my experience is completely untrue.

I do agree however, that a high standard of teachers is very important, and it is a big reason in the need to have a higher wage for teaching.

[This message has been edited by Paladin (edited 12-03-2001).]

neuro-praxis

Having experience of two schools, I disagree that teachers have a cushy job, and although it has its benefits, undoubtedly, it is a tough and demanding career. It is also difficult to get into teaching courses, and once in, it is dificult to succeed. I know two capable people who worked their butts off in college (one for primary and one for secondary) and they were both failed because their teaching practise was deemed inadequate - an area that they must deal with alone.

I also disagree that the teachers of the current new generation have job security - one of my teachers has been in the school over three years and she is still a temp. She is earning less than I will be earning in the summer in the civil service (which requires no qualifications whatever).

At my old school, we all adored our teachers - they were the greatest most enthusiastic bunch of women I ever met, and it was mostly because of them that I liked school there so much. Now, in my current school, there is less of a student-teacher bond thing going on, but these teachers are superb and have managed to bring my grades up a lot.

Admttedly, my teachers are *not* striking, although it may be demanded of them eventually. However, if orals and practicals are postponed, and the papers are corrected by college graduates, this *will* affect me personally. It's quite worrying.

However, I fully support the teachers in their strike - for far too long now their profession has been considered of less worth by the general public, it seems, than other professions. I think this is highly unsatisfactory. I mean, I have had bad teachers down the years, but mostly, my experiences have been wholly positive. I have a great fondness for a lot of my teachers, past and present. I realise that this is not the situation in all schools, though.

You could not pay me enough to be a teacher. They are treated so badly.

I don't want my own leaving certificate to be jeapordised, this is an important time for me right now - but I still think they deserve a raise and more respect.

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Give me back my towel. I'll sue.

Mills

I think they deserve their extra money and should keep striking until they get some. Let's not forget the primary school teachers either, they're equally basly paid.

Missing schoolwork doesn't bother me at all, not when all the other schools are missing it too, doesn't put me at any disadvantage

Paladin

So how satisified would any leaving cert student be if teachers decided to strike the exams, and they were delayed and ******ed up and you ended up doing them the start of july to mid july and your summer is fuked?

A lot of students need all the time they can get to work in the summer to earn money for college.

Obviously peoples opinions of teachers would vary a huge amount depending on their school and their own personality. Some people have teachers they love. Others dont.

I still think its incredibly unreasonable of them to not accept benchmarking, a simple and perfectly fair scheme to regulate pay.

My dad lectures 3rd level. He believes his hours and holidays are cushy, especially after spending years in industry, which collapsed beneath his feet due to a financial backer nicking da money and doing a runner (such are the dangers of industry).

2nd level has more stress, because tbh they have to put up with incredible annoying little sh|ts (in my all boys school anyway).

Strikes - opinion divided as to their justification. I personally am unsure as to whether they are unjustified or justified. On the fence there atm.

But what about specifically striking for the leaving cert exams?
It has to be galling for parents of leaving cert students, not to mention students themselves, to have 6 years of work jeopardized by actions outside of their control.

neuro-praxis

I am in this position. I have my summer planned...finish exams, leave here and go to dublin, work in civil service (job already lined up -woo-hoo! no searching!), earn cash for college, go to Europe for a couple of weeks. If exams are changed around a bit, my life will have to be adjusted.

I could have all this messed up. But, *some* leaving cert year has to deal with it. It might as well be mine. Things will sort themselves out. Nothing is detrimental. No point in being angry about it. The government are under alot of pressure to do something...so I hope that they do the smart thing and realise how important our teachers are.

Shinji

Seen the state of the British education system recently? The vast, vast majority of the teachers are totally substandard, it's reckoned that a lot of them could not pass the exams they're trying to teach students the subjects for. The really good ones move into private-sector education where the pay is more sane, the dross stays in the public sector... and anyone with a degree can earn more at general jobs than a public-sector teacher, for half the stress.

Ireland is very, very rapidly approaching the same point. Education is cruelly underfunded, and teachers are scarce on the ground. Don't kid yourselves that there are plenty of teachers out there at the moment; I've seen the rates of reply to teaching job advertisements, and many PERMANENT positions in teaching will only attract one or possibly two candidates.

The ASTI know as well as anyone else that benchmarking will not give them the kind of payrise needed to bring them in line with people of the same experience and qualifications working outside of the profession.

Lump

Well, The only problem I have with them getting the pay rise is that it isn't preformance related, I.E. A crap teacher still gets paid the same as a Deadly teacher.


Its like paying some one who turns out 1 Webpage a year the same as some one who turns out 200 Webpages a year (I exaggerate but you know what I mean) Any way, I think that the handling of the whole affair is crappy by the government, the parents council and the ASTI. For example the teachers in the union didn't get to vote on the recomendation of the labour court. It was the head 180 boyo's in the union. You mighn't think it important, but alot of teachers may have chosen to accept it, in light of the amount of public abuse they will start to get if things don't resolve themselves soon.

Any way thats how I feel.


John

P.S. My mother is a Secondary Teacher.

[This message has been edited by Lump (edited 12-03-2001).]

Trojan

Agreed with that last man there, the ASTI guys aren't 100% in line with what the teachers are thinking on the ground.

To complicate an already complex issue, there are a lot of internal politics within and between unions themselves, the Dept Ed. etc. Consider, the top ASTI people regularly join the Dept Ed over the years, so they *should* have a some idea of whats going on (I am not implying that they do!).

The quote on the radio this morning was just funny, the parents council rep saying that "teachers would earn much more respect if they taught exam classes"! What was that about last year?

One other thing I objected to, the teachers have some days that media, etc are calling strike days. It is not a strike when you withhold a service you are not paid to do. So suddenly the Dept discovers it can't keep the schools open without those free services? In any other industry...

Oh yeah, and the auld lad is one, of course...

Al.

[This message has been edited by Trojan (edited 13-03-2001).]

TacT

It's in the government's interest to see that a career in Teaching is well paid or there will be a lot less of them..............and they will only get more sub standard teachers.....UNLESS...............The government makes it a profitable and economical option for people to take

Shiminay

Thing is...

Teachers take a lot of abuse. Both in the class from little bastids like us (and we were!) and in the pay packet from the government. My aunt was a home ec. teacher in Longford (Ballymahon to be exact) and she took retirement last year and she's really enjoying herself. But, I remember meeting her any time during the school year and she'd be stressed and wound up pretty tight. It's not right to be in that sort of a state because of your job.

Anyway, they should definitly get paid more, but they should be examined themselves every 3 - 5 years. Some teachers I had (from primary through to college) were brilliant, but just couldn't teach! They should all get their pay increases after they have internal examinations to their levels of ability (and willingness) to teach.

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All the best,

Dav
@B^)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Prepare yourself - The Beefy King stirs from his slumber...</font>

[honey i] violated [the kids]

Asuka

Ok, maybe that was vaguely ignorant of me, but i dont agree with dardozs view at all. I sincerely think that he doesnt understand the situation.
Hmmm. Striking isnt ideal, but there isnt exactly many other options open to teachers... personally i think the worst thing possible for the ASTI is the former president, Bernadine O Sullivan. She is the most militant of them all by far, and according to herself, wants an all-out strike because 'the benchmarking agreement is a con job the government is doing on us all'. So a friend of hers, from Northern Ireland, believes.
To summarise, she is heavily influencing the ASTI on the basis of hearsay from a friend who is not only not a member of the union, but isnt even from the same country.

Nuff said.

A

Elias

Teachers work very few hours a week, I'd imagine a lot of them would be doing well at around 24 hours a week. They get four months holidays a year. They make a song and dance about class preperation and correcting homework, and winge about how stressful there job is. Class prperation is complete crap, on the teachers part it dosn't happen, and they correct homework during class hours. There are Junior Doctors and Engineers working 100 hours a week, under imense pressure. We get two weeks holidays a year, and get paid more cause we work more. Stressful? If you can't handly teaching kids then you're not able for the job, so leave. It happens in other professions all the time, people find it too stressful and they leave, or jump out windows(which is something I wouldn't mind seeing some of you doing). There is no shortage of students seeking grinds out there. Plenty of money to be made. I'm not saying Teachers aren't professionals, but if they want to be paid like other professionals they've got to work like other professionals. And you're really ****ing up other peoples futures, get back to work ye rotten animals.

richindub2

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Elias:
Teachers work very few hours a week, I'd imagine a lot of them would be doing well at around 24 hours a week.
</font>

Just wondering what you base this on? I come from a household where both my parents are teachers and I could assure you both of them do more than that.

Most second level school teachers would spend at least 30 hours in school imo. Then if you add on corrections of papers regularly(ie. a class of 30 people, all doing honours papers, all writing about 6 pages for a test. This test has to be read and re read to make sure that the marks are just perfect or there is a lot of hassle, which means you'd be talking about a nights work at least for a teacher per class). Think of how many days a year they would have to do that? Plus they also have to prepare class work....

Also, your point about professionals, how many professionals would have to face a class of 30 people who all don't want to be where they are and actively throw/shout at their teachers? Many teachers have to put up with that (as I know from expierence )

I'm doing my JC (not half as important as the LC, but still) this year, and even though it might be disrupted I'm still all for the teachers getting some money (allthough I am probally somewhat biased with two teachers living in my house )

Just my thoughts on the subject


[This message has been edited by richindub2 (edited 13-03-2001).]

Lump

Solution to the problem....


The government devises a way to sac all the teachers in the country, and not get sued for it. Then they offer the job's back at a slightly increased wage. See how many teachers will refuse to take the job then.

John

DrunkLeprachaun

I definetly think teachers should get a raise. They are getting a ****ty deal from the goverment and the media. They are earning on average 30% less than the people they went to college with which I think is a site unfair. If we want to retain the quality of teachers we currently have, I belive they should get a pay hike.

ThunderingMike

I'm in 5th year. Most of my teachers do not deserve a pay rise. I am very serious. They are burned out. However, if 30% is what it takes for them to not completely **** up their end of the bargain (I'm not saying I have'nt) then so be it.

If it has come to the point where ignant kerry buckos like myself are getting ****ed off with the teachers, something is very wrong.

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ThunderingMike Thus conscience does make cowards of us all, And thus the native hue of resolution is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought, And enterprises of great pitch and moment, With this regard their current turns away, And lose the name of action... Nows that's a sig.

Elias

Fair enough richindub, perhaps your parents do give tests in school and then bring home copies and correct them themselves. But in my experience I have found that the vast majority of teachers correct home work in class, and with the exception of Summer exames, they also corrected exames in class by making us correct each others copies. As for the hours, I have two friends that are both teachers, and they said they'd being doing well if they spent that amount of time actually teaching. My sister is also preparing for her leaving, and I think that this on going strike is a disgrace which will have far reaching consequnces for the students whose's right to an education is being undermined. Right I gotta go now.

Illkillya

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by neuro-praxis:
However, if orals and practicals are postponed, and the papers are corrected by college graduates, this *will* affect me personally. It's quite worrying.</font>

This is the attitude I don't understand... surely you are at an ADVANTAGE because of the teachers strike? Your teachers aren't striking - so u don't have to worry about not getting your course covered and stuff. Having experience of 1000 schools (roughly) disruption is good if you're organised and on the ball. I'm not saying that you're freaking out neuro - but i know a load of girls who are, and most of them are the ones who will be affected the least because they don't even rely on the teachers since they get the whole course done themselves by doing a load of study.

The way I see it there are 4 different categories of Leaving cert students:
1. Those who have good teachers who are not striking
2. Those who have bad teachers who are not striking
3. Those who have good teachers who are striking
4. Those who have bad teachers who are striking

1. You are at a big advantage over some schools - you have the course covered and you're sorted

2. not affected by strike - your teacher would have been just as ****e if there had been no strike

3. (this is me) My courses covered - i get a load of lovely days of relaxation off, I always take a couple of weeks of this time of year anyway becuase i get so tired of school, this strike is handy
so I have a big advantage over (1), (2) and (4) becuase i get to enjoy myself when you're all stuck in school, and I still won't do ****e on my leaving.
A good teacher will make sure that this strike will not affect u.

4. :P

As for orals postponed - u get more time to work on yar french. practicals - could be dodgy... i'm not sure because i'm not doing any

Papers corrected by college graduates - theres a certain percentage of the ppl who sit the leaving will get A's anyway, right? if it comes to it that we have inexperienced ppl correcting papers they will probably be sticking rigidly to a marking scheme. The good students will always get what they deserve, those bordering on some grade might lose out on a few points, but they might gain a few, but i doubt there will be much of a lottery.

(do teachers deserve the money.... i'm not a teacher so i have no idea )

buzz

I think what everyone is saying, is perfectly ok...
But we all agree on the same thing!!! THe gov. in this country is full of ****!
1) HOw much $$$ do they spend on GAA... A non profit making sport??? They are making a little of course, but spending sooooo much on it!!! This is one example! I can list plenty... But my point is...
While the gov is spending so much tax money on crap, potentially the most important system in the country is being neglected!
Thousadnd of school children all over the country are having free days, which in turn is gonna have major effects on this years leaving cert and junior cert examinations. And its over money that the gov wont spend???? How long will it be before the gov crash`s ..... Please reply to my thoughts, and if any, please express...
Urs Buzz

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To infinity and beyond!!!

Son of Blam

I'm not sure about secondary school teachers, but the starting salary for a qualified primary school teacher who has just come out of college is £16,800 a year.

Source: My mother's pay scale thingie in her INTO handbook (she's a primary school teacher).

-Son of Blam

Decay

For what it's worth I can sympathise as in 1986 when I did my leaving cert the teachers went on strike as well.

But and it's a big but, I chose electronics as a profession. **** pay long hours a modern day sweat shop industry. Did I strike,did I whinge and moan, did i get upset at all the other people earning so much more than me. well sort of of. I voted with my feet, got my MCSE and now work in IT earning 8 times as much as an qualified Electronics engineer with 10 years experience.

Thts the real world for you. If you don't like your job and its not paying enough get out! As for taking students careers and livelyhoods hostage, it gives a good indication of where teachers loyalties lie. Bugger the students I want more money. You say the students won't be effected, yeah right, If I am employing graduates and I see a student who did his leaving in 01, sure that was the easy year cause the teachers were on strike. I know because I had it said to me when I was job hunting. No matter that years in college were no different to any other years.

In the current climate there are plenty other jobs avilable. No one needs to feel forced into remaining at a job that doesn't pay properly. People in the real world change careers all the time.

Good God a nice semi state job, pensions, holidays, job security, little or no benchmarking. You can't have your cake and eat it


JWT

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Chapter Fifteen,Elementary Necromancy', she read out loud. 'Lesson One:
Correct Use of Shovel...'
-- (Terry Pratchett, Jingo)

Shinji

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If you don't like your job and its not paying enough get out!</font>

If you think students are f*cked by this strike, how f*cked will they be when there aren't enough teachers around to teach them? There isn't an endless supply of teachers being churned out of a factory somewhere; already there are quite serious shortages of qualified teachers.

buzz

so does anyone agree with the point I made???
above

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To infinity and beyond!!!

TwoShedsJackson

Gotta laff at the letter in the Times today from someone saying that if Bono decides to resit his Leaving Cert Bertie will be in like a shot to sort out legislation

nard

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shinji:

Ireland is very, very rapidly approaching the same point. Education is cruelly underfunded, and teachers are scarce on the ground. Don't kid yourselves that there are plenty of teachers out there at the moment; I've seen the rates of reply to teaching job advertisements, and many PERMANENT positions in teaching will only attract one or possibly two candidates.
</font>

No disrespect (hah ) but this information is clearly misleading. There still are plenty of well-educated students applying to become teachers.
I can tell you that possibly 5 of the top 10-15 people from my school last year went on to study to become teachers. The majority of them would have to ability to be a far superior teacher than the older generation of teachers in our same school.

If it follows as you've said that new teachers are drying up in this land of ours, why is it, that CAO points for teaching have remained pretty constant if not increased in recent years? And why is it that the number of students applying to become teachers has also increased? And it has (I think anyway ... I read too much ya see!)

Also your whole WWTBAM analogy is totally out of place. How can a person with 50 years of experience in this world be compared to someone with 25 years? General Knowledge is for the most part achieved by life experiences ... write off the first 10-15 years of life, and you have 10 years versus 40 years ... 4 times the length of time to absorb knowledge.

New teachers certainly aren't an underclass. They are, IMHO, better educated than alot of the old-skool teachers.

--Kaiser--

I read in a newspaper that students in dublin were arrested for protesting.
What is this china?
Tiannamen square anyone?

the fnj

Comparing being arrested to the masacre that took place in Tiannamen square is actually a disrespect to the students who got killed there. The student protests went right past were I work. Some of the students involved were acting like muppets and deserved to be arrested. The cops were good enough to escort the march they should'nt get crap from idiots.

Lump

I agree, people started acting like muppets, although in kilkenny the guards were fairly alright, two windows got broken, and eggs etc were thrown, the guards blocked off the main street and didnt arrest anyone.


John

P.S. It's going to be about 200 times worse this friday apparently so, lock up your kids.

yossarin

the kids protesting in (dublin) town are by and large muppets - allthough it may just be a hardcore group of 'agitators' Lots of loud shouting/etc. I suppose that for any schoolchild except JS and LC this whole thing must be lots of fun.

Lump

Well, we're back to school tomorrow so, no need to worry about teachers striking.


/me wonders how many will "walk out" (doss)


John

Derek Bell

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lump:
Well, The only problem I have with them getting the pay rise is that it isn't preformance related, I.E. A crap teacher still gets paid the same as a Deadly teacher.
[This message has been edited by Lump (edited 12-03-2001).]</font>

But how does performance related pay deal with getting one student from regular Ds to As compared with getting ten students from Ds to Cs? (hypothetically speaking)

Stephen

How about an exam which the teachers must take periodically?

Shinji

That works, in so much as it makes sure they know their subject well. Thing is, the ability to stand in front of a class and TEACH is something that's almost impossible to quantify in an exam...

Shinji

I don't think you can measure the performance of teachers on how well their students do in exams. Not all students are created equal, after all. Exam performance markers are used here in England and frankly, they plain don't work.

androphobic

I dont see how teachers could be graded or how performance related pay could be introduced because you simply cant judge them on their students results.. there are too many factors to be taken into consideration.
I dont think a test would work either really.. because there are loads of clever teachers who really just cant teach.
I'd agree that something has to be introduced but I've no idea how it could be done.
I guess ya just gotta take the bad ones with the good ones and hope for the best.

the celtic tiger

what's the craic?

Celt

Teachers pay isnt that bad....