Spain pulling troops out of Iraq

Hobbes

Originally posted by woody
Good thing the Yanks and the Brits have there head screwed on as is they pulled out Iraq would fall into the Abyss of mayhem....

I guess the whole June 20th deadline just totally went by you?

Memnoch

Originally posted by Hobbes
I guess the whole June 20th deadline just totally went by you?

what does June 20th do?

handover of power from one American appointed puppet government to another one? but still enforced by military might

yes I can see the handing over of power to the iraqi people and democracy at work here.

emmaisbornfree

Its facing the fact that theres no way to stop him. The UN have no power over the major nations, so invoking them is of no use.

No its not. Its running away from the issues and not standing up to the US and its neo-conserative foreign policies. The EU can get its act together and put forward a coherent policy as an alternative to US interference in the middle east.

For example, a trade embargo on Israel

The UN has power and can pass resolutions to condemn this evil action.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sleipnir
First off, this was not an ultimatum on Spain's part, America had said last year that the handover would occur on June 30th. Everyone now know that it will not happen on that date.

Spain said, following an initial outburst that they were going to pull out regardless, that they would pull out if the handover was unsatisfactory. It may well be, but there is still going to be a handover, and whether it will be unsatisfactory is not yet a done deal.

The Spanish PM had said that he would pull Spanish troops out of Iraq just before he was brought to power. Long before the 'Truce' offer.

No. The leader of the opposition in Spain said that he would pull Spanish troops out of Iraq just before he was brought to power, when no one outside Spain cared who he was. The Spanish PM elect reiterated this opinion just after the election and less than a week after the Madrid bombings. Then as the new Spanish PM he confirmed that he would pull Spanish troops out of Iraq less than a week after Bin Laden’s truce offer. Join the dots.

The people of Spain were, on the whole, against sending their troops to support the war/occupation in Iraq.

So what? I was discussing a strategic diplomatic blunder, not the morality of the policy.

The Spanish PM is simply carrying out the wishes of the electorate by withdrawing.

The US and frankly no other nation cares whether you’re following the wishes of your electorate or not. What they care is that if you make an agreement you won’t U-turn with a change in government. No one wants to make deals with nations like that.

I’m not saying that they should not have pulled out, only that they’ve damaged Spain’s diplomatic credibility in how they’ve done so.

Memnoch

Originally posted by emmaisbornfree
No its not. Its running away from the issues and not standing up to the US and its neo-conserative foreign policies. The EU can get its act together and put forward a coherent policy as an alternative to US interference in the middle east.

For example, a trade embargo on Israel

The UN has power and can pass resolutions to condemn this evil action.

i agree the EU should trade embargo Israel. Unfortuantely the US will veto any resolution against israel in the UN security council. A trade embargo imposed by the EU is a good way to start.

Memnoch

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Spain said, following an initial outburst that they were going to pull out regardless, that they would pull out if the handover was unsatisfactory. It may well be, but there is still going to be a handover, and whether it will be unsatisfactory is not yet a done deal.

No. The leader of the opposition in Spain said that he would pull Spanish troops out of Iraq just before he was brought to power, when no one outside Spain cared who he was. The Spanish PM elect reiterated this opinion just after the election and less than a week after the Madrid bombings. Then as the new Spanish PM he confirmed that he would pull Spanish troops out of Iraq less than a week after Bin Laden’s truce offer. Join the dots.

So what? I was discussing a strategic diplomatic blunder, not the morality of the policy.

The US and frankly no other nation cares whether you’re following the wishes of your electorate or not. What they care is that if you make an agreement you won’t U-turn with a change in government. No one wants to make deals with nations like that.

I’m not saying that they should not have pulled out, only that they’ve damaged Spain’s diplomatic credibility in how they’ve done so.

i disagree. The issue isn't one of spain's diplomatic credability. Spain's PM's first and foremost duty is to represent his PEOPLE's wishes. It seems that in this day and age people constantly forget that that is what elected democratic governments are supposed to do. We should be hailing the New PM as a hero for his courageous actions.

Just because people like Blair and Japan's PM ignore the wishes of the majority of their electorate doesn't mean it should be condoned.

Why should the Spanish PM, continue to carry out a policy that was set by his predecessor against the wishes of the majority of the countries people, simply to appease america?

Finally we have a politician that upholds the promises made before an election. We need more men like this in power, listening to what their people want. Not dictating what they think is best, due to their own narrow minded intersts and propaganda eg Bush and Blair

halkar

So what now? Spanish Pm gone in Bush's black list like Saddam was? Will Bush go look for WMDs there and accuse them off supporting terrorist? And if he wins the election will he be off to Spain to liberate them too:D
Viva España :cool:

lili

Originally posted by ReefBreak
One-Nil to Al Qaeda. Terrorism works, let's kill more innocent civilians on trains and see what we can gain from it. Yeah. Pull out, and let the country descend into a chaos far worse than it's in now.

terrorism works because the bush administration geostrategy in the middle east.

Seaneh

This is idiocy of the highest order.
Anyone who "celebrated" this move is a effing idiot.
I know, why don't we just take all the KFOR troops out of Kosovo and all the nato troops out of Bosnia and coratia as well?
Sure, who cares about the people that live there? A nice war lord will take over and make them all happy.

lili

Originally posted by Seaneh
This is idiocy of the highest order.
Anyone who "celebrated" this move is a effing idiot.
I know, why don't we just take all the KFOR troops out of Kosovo and all the nato troops out of Bosnia and coratia as well?
Sure, who cares about the people that live there? A nice war lord will take over and make them all happy.

i think those which created this chao should handle with it. france and germany warned bush. he didn't listen, and more, he pissed on UN!

Seaneh

I am going to give you the only reason Germany, Russia and France didn't support the invasion, and it's not morality, or UN regulations.
Oil for Food Programe.
They paid about 1/8th the OPEC price of oil as long as that stayed in place.

lili

Originally posted by Seaneh
I am going to give you the only reason Germany, Russia and France didn't support the invasion, and it's not morality, or UN regulations.
Oil for Food Programe.
They paid about 1/8th the OPEC price of oil as long as that stayed in place.

do you want my opinion?
if i was the french gouvernment i would stand in the US side. sharing the cake with them instead to risk the cancel our investisment in iraq.

Villain

Originally posted by Seaneh
This is idiocy of the highest order.
Anyone who "celebrated" this move is a effing idiot.
I know, why don't we just take all the KFOR troops out of Kosovo and all the nato troops out of Bosnia and coratia as well?
Sure, who cares about the people that live there? A nice war lord will take over and make them all happy.

LOL, Man I think you need to calm down, Spain have every right to pull out, you should respect that decision not curse it. The US should be able to handle the mess they started.

Seaneh

I am clam, I just can't understand why people would be happy about this.
It isn't in the intrest of the Iraqi people, and the only reason I can see for pulling out troops at this stage is in spite or cowardice.
I didn't support the war, but I do think it is a good thing that Sadam is gone, and so do the vast majority of Iraqi people. But any of the coalition pulling out at this stage is Idiocy, it helps nobody.

Villain

Originally posted by Seaneh
I am clam, I just can't understand why people would be happy about this.
It isn't in the intrest of the Iraqi people, and the only reason I can see for pulling out troops at this stage is in spite or cowardice.
I didn't support the war, but I do think it is a good thing that Sadam is gone, and so do the vast majority of Iraqi people. But any of the coalition pulling out at this stage is Idiocy, it helps nobody.

It might help save Spanish soldiers being killed, it might help the families of the Spanish soldiers sleep again

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Memnoch
i disagree. The issue isn't one of spain's diplomatic credability. Spain's PM's first and foremost duty is to represent his PEOPLE's wishes.

Actually no. His first and foremost duty is to represent his PEOPLE. As I’ve already said twice or more times, I am not disagreeing with what he did as how he did it. It was a badly executed policy regardless of whether the policy itself was good or ill, popular or not. And he has not represented his people well in the manner in which he has executed policy.

If you took the time to read what I’ve written you’d see that I’ve not condemned the policy of Spanish withdrawal from Iraq anywhere, only that this policy has been executed in a ham-fisted and Bushesque fashion.

Fools rush in, after all.

lili

Originally posted by Seaneh
It isn't in the intrest of the Iraqi people, and the only reason I can see for pulling out troops at this stage is in spite or cowardice.

so what do you call hero's attitude?
bombing a country? using technoligical weapons?

Moriarty

Originally posted by irish1
It might help save Spanish soldiers being killed, it might help the families of the Spanish soldiers sleep again

Since when has the medium/far-left been intrested in the plight of coalition soldiers? Sure aren't they all baby-killers and war criminals?

geezup

Originally posted by Seaneh
...and the only reason I can see for pulling out troops at this stage is in spite or cowardice.

What about respect for the Spanish people ? WE, the Spanish, didn't support the war, but that freaking muppet of PM we had before, wanted to please Bush so badly.... well, offer Bush your ass but don't get the Spanish people in a war they don't want.

The pull out has nothing to do with the trains, it was a promise if he was elected, and he said that long before the bombs. So its not cowardice. He did what he promised to the Spanish people. That's it. And he did right.

Memnoch

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Actually no. His first and foremost duty is to represent his PEOPLE. As I’ve already said twice or more times, I am not disagreeing with what he did as how he did it. It was a badly executed policy regardless of whether the policy itself was good or ill, popular or not. And he has not represented his people well in the manner in which he has executed policy.

If you took the time to read what I’ve written you’d see that I’ve not condemned the policy of Spanish withdrawal from Iraq anywhere, only that this policy has been executed in a ham-fisted and Bushesque fashion.

Fools rush in, after all.

i disagree,
why should he leave his troops to die in iraq, or get involved in fighting, not to mention his troops kill iraqis as part of this illegal occupation.

Are the lives of his troops, or iraqi civillians worth this "diplomacy" you talk about?

Would you send your son to death to please the coalition diplomatically? I think not.
The less lives that are wasted in this facade the better.

Seaneh

Originally posted by Memnoch
[B
The less lives that are wasted in this facade the better. [/B]

And you think that coalition forces pulling out is going to mean less peope die?
Either you have an extremly idolistic view of the world or you live on a differaint planet.

Tuars

If I was an Iraqi right now I'd be saying to the Coalition Forces "Thanks for getting rid of Saddam (no thanks for putting him there in the first place), now clear off and let us get on with rebuilding our country as we want."

At present the occupation forces are not helping the situation. They have no idea what their objectives are beyond some vague notion of "fighting terrorism and bringing democracy to the masses". The US army doesn't know what to do with itself. It's reduced to showing off its muscle, antagonizing otherwise peaceful Iraqis.

Troop morale is low due to the lack of rotation (some have been there over a year with another 3 months just thrown on recently). They're tired and they're not up to the job.

It's not their fault. The US administration went into this with its eyes closed, no homework done. No wonder no one has a clue what to do next.

Bush has left it in the hands of the UN representative to decide the future of Iraq. The Brits have said they will leave Basra if the Shia ask them.

Thank God Zapatero kept his promise and has made an attempt to put a stop to the madness. It's way past time for calling a spade a spade.

The occupation of Iraq is a fiasco and it is illegal. That is why Spain is pulling out.

Villain

Originally posted by Seaneh
And you think that coalition forces pulling out is going to mean less peope die?
Either you have an extremly idolistic view of the world or you live on a differaint planet.

Well I don't think the Spanish deserve to die.

If Bush and blair had found the WMD, I would have said fair enough, but they are now occupying the country and not liberating it.

Sorry but if I was spanish I would not want my fellow citizens out there.

MeatProduct

Originally posted by irish1
Sorry but if I was spanish I would not want my fellow citizens out there.

I'm Irish and I don't want Spanish citizens out there.

Naturally if the coalition pulls out there will be violence in Iraq, just like now actually. The difference is that the fighting will be amongst people who belong to Iraq.

Nick

Tuars

And you think that coalition forces pulling out is going to mean less peope die?
Either you have an extremly idolistic view of the world or you live on a differaint planet.

Ah yes, the colonial mindset. Mother (in this case the west) knows best. God forbid that we let these people try to work out their own problems.

The root of many problems in the mid-east can be traced to ignorant western intervention. This one is proving to be no exception.

Ah yes, the colonial mindset. Mother (in this case the west) knows best. God forbid that we let these people try to work out their own problems

Tuars, I agree. Where is this assumption that Iraq needs help from the west in this? Its been Western intervention thats helped place Iraq in this position in the first place. Perhaps the Iraqi people are capable of managing their own country without the West deciding if they're going about it the right way or not.

I say game on to the Spanish PM. He said what he wanted to do, and he followed through. Sounds nice to have a politician that keeps his word.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Memnoch
why should he leave his troops to die in iraq, or get involved in fighting, not to mention his troops kill iraqis as part of this illegal occupation.

Because that’s what troops do - ultimately a nation’s military exists to defend and further the interests of the State. You don’t actually think that they all thought they were signing up to a game of Counter-Strike, do you? :rolleyes:

If a government were afraid that someone might suffer by dint of their actions, then no action would ever be taken by that government, because ultimately all decisions will result in someone suffering somewhere along the way. It’s the nature of the beast, and no level of youthful idealism will change that.

As for the occupation being illegal, it may be immoral but it’s not illegal, as the UN Security Council has already legitimised it.

Are the lives of his troops, or iraqi civillians worth this "diplomacy" you talk about?

Of the troops I’ve already addressed, of the Iraqi themselves you have - you pointed out yourself that the Spanish government’s first and foremost duty is to the Spanish citizens. All other priorities, including the well being of the Iraqi people, are a secondary consideration - Harsh, but true.

Would you send your son to death to please the coalition diplomatically? I think not.
The less lives that are wasted in this facade the better.

Using emotive language and arguments will hardly prove anything other than you think it better to reason with your heart than your head, which while admirable is also quite foolish.