Can I get money back from Eircom?

watty

Over 2 years ago I complained of bad line. Phone bill nearly trippled due to redail attempts each charged at 3min.

Eventually it was too poor to use for Internet at all and also sounded "noisy" on voice. Eircom claimed it was OK.

I got Chorus "wireless" analog phone outlet and everything fine for two years.

About a fortnight ago I reconnected to Eircom. They demand almost 130 EUR reconnect charge.

The line was still bad, taking up to 10minutes to get a working connection.

They claimed line tested OK.

Yesturday an Techie came and tested and found a fault. This fault had been there a long time and would cause serious noise on line. at some point the line was fed by single wires in two separate pairs. This was 29m away from house.

So all the money I have spent connecting to Chorus and then nearly 130 reconnect to Eircom and also extra dial attempts is due to the old Eircom wiring ERROR.

In *ANY* other industry, service or product I wopuld get my excess money back and an aplogy

What's the chance? I'll send this to Comreg. They were interested in the orignal complaint and even rang me up to discuss it in detail.

Our man in Havana

Did they fix the fault?

3 words Watty, Small Claims Court.

Take them there and sue for your losses as a result of eircoms ineptitude. They will settle as they never show up. Make sure the court is in a rural backwater such as Kanturk or Skibbereen. No use having it in eircoms back yard. Make things as difficult as possible.

That's what I did and won!

Gadgie

Personally I'm not sure if you could get your money back, but by all means try it and I hope you win.

I'm curious about one thing though: why did you have to pay a €130 reconnection fee? Usually it's €25 if all line work is still intact (or was some of the eircom wiring removed when you switched to Chorus?).

watty

The modem now connects 1st or 2nd attempt. Still drops line quite often and noticeably slower than Chorus or before it "broke". Now it is "usable" rather than unusable.

They claim that if gap in service is more than 2 years they charge full amount.

Gadgie

Did you try another modem like you were going to? I realise that the modem worked fine on the Chorus line, but sometimes this helps. I don't know what modem you have at the moment, but I have a PCI WinModem that connects first time and never drops a connection, but both a serial modem and a USB modem that I've used in the past used to drop the connection frequently on the same line.

They claim that if gap in service is more than 2 years they charge full amount.

Bah. Rotten bastards. :mad:

Our man in Havana

They claim that if gap in service is more than 2 years they charge full amount.

Bollocks! My line was off for longer than that and they reconnected me for 25EUR.

Don't let them away with this.

watty

Got 1st bill

2 months line rental in advance

110 approx install

and an *AMAZING* approx 230 Internet calls to pick up mail 4 times and browse Internet 5 times. (Due to ISP hangup immediately on connect /answer because of bad line). 5 Euro for 4 days!

I want that back. Plus I still have all the bills going back for 4 years at least.
I want those excess calls back too.

Unfortunately I re-installed a "new" server a few months ago. The old dialler / wingate logs though will be on one of the old SCSI disks in the dual P90 chassis that doesn't work anymore.

Eircom ISP at exchange answers call. hangs up immediately because line bad. Eircom phone company charges 3 minute call. There is *NO* modem answering call at exchange. 56K modem dialup *ONLY* works with server "hooked" into a Digital Exchange directly converting the analog modem signal to digital and routing that via digtal network to the appropriate ISP server. They have the logs too that show what is happening.

Two years ago Eircom ISP said it was Eircom Phone company issue and Phone company claimed it was an ISP issue and Eircom ISP is a "totally separate company" also "the phone call is getting answered, you must pay the full 3 minutes per call, even though each call is about 1 second or less duration".

My Internet is still very poor and still quite often redailing, but is now nearly useable rather than 10 minutes to connect (mail server times out just under 10 minutes, so for over a week no automated email pickup, that is now working).

The amount of redailling though is still probabily enough that ISDN or flat rate account would work out cheaper.

Total Bandits.

Our man in Havana

See if you can get isdn. Better off too go get a flat rate account from someone other than eircom.

I had similar issues in the past and when I told them that I would sue they just rolled over and paid up. They don't want the hassle and inconvience of attending a country district court that it's way cheaper for them to pay up.

In the small claims courts eircom can't claim costs against you if you lost the case same as you can get them for legal bills as you present the case yourself. Hence the reason they settle quickly as the cost of legal bodies for eircom would far exceed what you are after.

Keep the hassle up.

watty

ISDN will cost 15 Euro extra per month. If redial costs are not now lower, this would be a good option...

BUT I used to have fine access at this address on Eircom.

ISDN will cost me nearly 24 Euro per month more that Chorus line rental was.

Internet Calls will be about 15 Euro a month, or maybe less (mail picks faster and one call a day).


Total €30 on Internet over ordinary voice only call and analog line rental if I go ISDN. I might even use it more as the connect time is nearly instant etc. So really Broadband would be better value at €45 ish a month, only an extra 15 Euro for as much as I can eat (I wouldn't be downing mad downloads, so a cap is no problem). My email server could have a .NET domain cheaply aliased / DNSed to it and I would have 24/7 online email with <anyaddress>@watty.net (or whatever). My mail server even has all the SW to *BE* and ISP email provider by SMTP, POP, IMAP and WWW/HTTP ! Accounting and everything.

Except Patrickswell Eircom Broadband trigger is 1 registerd 361 to go...

Can Esat provide Broadband on an Exchange that Eircom hasn't got it on but has a trigger level for?

Our man in Havana

Can Esat provide Broadband on an Exchange that Eircom hasn't got it on but has a trigger level for?

No is the answer to that.

AS for ISDN you will not be using an analogue modem. It's called a TA which will only connect at 64kps or 128kps if you are multi-linking. ISDN would probably solve all your problems as it's more robust than analogue 56k.

jd

Originally posted by Bond-007
No is the answer to that.

you sure about that?

watty

Yes.. Just checked on Esat / IOL broadband test thing. If Eircom can't give it then Esat can't either. If the exchange (C.O.) has not got the gear installed, no-one can do it.

jd

mm
I'm fairly sure esat has their own kit installed in a number of exchanges ie they don't have to resell eircoms own offerings

watty

Originally posted by Bond-007
No is the answer to that.

AS for ISDN you will not be using an analogue modem. It's called a TA which will only connect at 64kps or 128kps if you are multi-linking. ISDN would probably solve all your problems as it's more robust than analogue 56k.

Yes. It just costs more. And cost Eircom the same. So they get extra 15 profit each month!

The box on the wall with the S-Bus for the TA, is a TE (Terminal Equipment), it is in reality a 144K+ "analog modem" providing the error free 2 x 64 channels and 1 x 16K channel. Both RJ45 sockets give access to both channels, not one socket per channel. You used to pay extra for POTS (Plain Old Telephone System) sockets, now and ISDN TE without POTS costs more to get and the "Domestic" one with two "POTS" is cheaper.

AN ethernet Router, A 8-port POTS or RS232 ISDN "modem" or PCI ISDN card are all kinds of ISDN TA (terminal Adaptors)

You can inexpensively get 10 extra numbers. The two "built in " POTS can be assigned any pair of the now twelve numbers. You can add 8 port POTS adaptor via up to 100m of CAT5 plugged into the ISDN S-Bus (the wall box), for about €100. You can even thave a 10 phone system with any two at once doing outside calls. Most add-in pots adaptor have full baby alarm, door intercom and mini-PABX without any external call just with ordinary cheap €10 analog phones plugged in.

A internal PC card (ISDN TA) by the magic of CAPI looks like a Network Card for data after a call is established, and Analog Fax and Digital Fax and even ISDN Speaker phone & voice mail using sound card etc. Even the SAME inward number on PC can be identified as Voice, Analog Modem Data, Analog Fax, Digital Fax, or 64K ISDN data and automatically connect to the correct application.


In theory the 16K (D-Channel) could be used as an always on X-25 link into wherever 24/7 (You pay X25 by quantity carried, not by connect time). X25 to SMTP gateways exist, so always on Email is possible.

If you have an alarm or cash transaction system Eircom will let you have the X25 connectivity on D-Channel, but not for Email, as they think EVERYONE sends humongus HTML and/or attachments. I don't and also "train" my correspondants to send plain text etc..

So the 16K D-Channel lies "wasted" used momentarily to "dial" and "hangup"!


It is the Applications and flexibility that makes ISDN so nice for a small office. Not the speed. Yet in 20 odd years of all this being available, very few people know this. Usually Eircom are mystified as to why someone with no PABX wants the 10 extra numbers.

"HiSpeed" and "Surf while you talk" is incredible undermarketing.

And all of this is available in Ireland about TWENTY YEARS.


I haven't the ongoing cash for ANY of the following:
Repeated extra dialups
ISDN
Broadband.
Flat Rate.

So if the Internet / Email is costing too much with repeated 3min call charge dialup, I'll have NO email / internet at home.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by watty

Two years ago Eircom ISP said it was Eircom Phone company issue and Phone company claimed it was an ISP issue and Eircom ISP is a "totally separate company" also "the phone call is getting answered, you must pay the full 3 minutes per call, even though each call is about 1 second or less duration"
....

Total Bandits.

Cf. Sinn Fein / IRA

I've heard Eircomstart charging earlier in the call that other Telco's - is this true ?
Is there any way of determinig the noise on the first ring and hanging up straight away if it's noisy ?

Is it possible to listen to line noise before dialling ?

watty

The INSTANT a remote end's "off Hook" signal is detected by exchange, the meter sticks on the minimum charge.

With 56K dialup to Digital Exchange, there is *NO* remote end, so the instant the call is answered, it is charged. The call actually terminates at the exchange (but which exchange). The maximum modem mode via an analog exchange is 33K (lucky if you get 22K).

So the call must need to be "translated" to Digital at the "local" exchange.

So the only "analog part" is local loop.

If you go "off Hook" and use DSP to remove the dial tone and likely harmonics and measure residual noise this will be noise in tone generator + local loop line noise. So for a Modem to Modem call you don't know noise on the other end's local loop nor any analog paths inbetween.

To this you can the Quantisation Noise and the distortion caused by the uLaw or A-Law (forget which we use) CODEC (ADC and DAC).

Of course in a true 56K modem call to digital Exchange to ISP there is *NO* other end, only your own local loop, so in theory you could measure line noise. But not frequency or phase response (group delay), nor distortion, as you don't know how good or bad the dial tone is.

Also if the problem is really the Codec / plant at the local Exchange used to convert the analog to digital and vice versa and/or the analog Hybrid (separates to and from signals on two wire bidirectional local loop into two separate unidirectional channels ahead of ADC/DAC 64K Codec), such a line test would pass but "internet" access would still be rubbish.

Conclusions:

1) Everyone charges the instant they detect a call is answered. A 3rd party call provider might get this information very slightly later (signalling latency). There is no essential difference.

2) Only very old analog systems actually connect you to remote local loop while it is ringing. On Digital you only "see" the noise on your own analog local loop until other end answers and call connected (means ringing does not tie up voice circuits, Digital uses separate "out of band" signalling, unlike a totally analog system).

3) Yes you can in theory measure line noise before dialing. But only on your local loop. You can even do it without "going off hook". Not with any modem a shop sells though.

Telcom companies LOVE voice mail/ answer machines. The other end answers at once. You spend 20 sec etc leave message. 3 minute charge. Otherwise you could ring for ages several times and it cost you nothing and costs them in signalling.

Then, of course the OTHER guy rings you and leaves a message on your voice mail / answer machine..

If they are lucky they get nearly 20 min of call charges in a day (each person makes three short 20 second calls). Before all this technology they would not have got a penny.

watty

Finally after nearly 3 years I succumb and order Eircom Hispeed as suggested by Eircom to solve my long running internet access problem (900m from Digital Exchange).

Ordered on 3rd May. (Tried earlier but eircom.ie was "down"!)

Rang today 17th to see what was happening......


"Your order must have been cancelled as no more ISDN customers can be added on your exchange"


GAAAAGGGGH!!!!!

And BB trigger level is 1 down of 362... in a small village.