Israeli's

chabsey

It's funny how the world seems to jump at the mention of the word 'fundamentalism' when connected with religion. The justification for Israel's existance is pure fundamentalism, 'god promised us this land'. As an a-religious person I find it hilarious that a seemingly intelligent bunch of people can, as their last line of defence in terms of justifiying their occupation of a land, say that they're actions are perfectly acceptable because 'god promised us the land'.

I also find it very hard to sympathise with Israel's plight simply because I don't believe their reasons for being there and also cause at the slightest (and I do mean slightest) criticism they're ready with one of two accusations:

1. You're and anti-Semite!
2. Please, remember the holocaust!

Just because I dislike Israel's attitude doesn't mean I dislike Jewish people, and what about the Jews who also disagree with Israel. Isn't labelling them anti-semitic some sort of paradox that could destablise the entire universe?

The holocaust happened years before I was born, in a different country, perpretrated by a now-dead madman who had a personal dislike for jews. It has nothing to do with me and so again I've no time for people who are quick to throw that out as some sort of justification/defence.

There is no essential conflict between the Jewish and Arab ethnic groups, they live together peacefully in many places in the world. The problems that are now exploding in mass murder can be traced to events earlier in the 20th Century, notably the rise of the Zionist movement, which was a separatist movement based on the principle that Jews must give up trying to assimilate in the countries of the world where they have lived for centuries and must instead live in a state established only for Jews.

Was it not Zionists that made it more difficult for displaced jews to get into the US after WW2, knowing that no one would choose Israel over the US and they needed Israel populated?

Unfortunately, to establish Israel as envisioned required space. The space chosen was Palestine, where other people were already living. These people were pushed out of their homes and in the case of thousands massacred. Today they live under intolerable oppression just for being in the way of this grand idea of Jewish separatism.

Of course they have fought back, and as a result, more innocent people have died, about one Israeli for every 10 murdered Palestinian. But don't mention their nukes....they'll lock you up if you do!

Victor

Originally posted by klaz
Ahh but its normally civilised nations that do this. Russia, Great Britain, USA, France, Japan the list goes on, and on and on. But then for the most part these nations skipped letting the people leave, and decided to kill them on the spot.

But what would the use for [strike]slaves[/strike] manual labour then?

I hold to Israel's place there for two reasons: 1) theres no way they're going to leave, and 2) its UN approved.

As for the rest, I get tired of repeating myself.

But don't mention their nukes....they'll lock you up if you do!

Only if you're an Israeli, and have commited Treason. Its hard to tell if this was a joke, since everyone is very serious abt this subject.

But what would the use for slaves manual labour then?

I'm assuming you're trying to say that not all were killed and some were used as slave labour? You're quite right. In some cases. In others, determined efforts were made to wipe them off the face of the planet.

chabsey

Originally posted by klaz
I hold to Israel's place there for two reasons: 1) theres no way they're going to leave, and 2) its UN approved.

As for the rest, I get tired of repeating myself.



Only if you're an Israeli, and have commited Treason. Its hard to tell if this was a joke, since everyone is very serious abt this subject.

Yeah it was a sort-of joke. I found it funny that for a lot of their history Israel has promoted the myth that they've won the wars they've fought while being massively out-numbered.

"Look, there's six arab nations about to jump on us with their amazing armies of super-weapons with extra explosion power. All we have is 6 twigs and some feathers....if we win this then surely it's proof that god is on our side!"

Basic fact is (and I think official documents support this) that Israel has always had an amazing army, one of the best in the world and for them to lose any of the wars they've fought would have been conclusive proof god was against them!

Meanwhile they're a nuclear power, someone tells the world this and the whole 'we're so weak yet justified' arguement takes a battering. Or maybe they're just got upset with him for the 'treason' reason. Who knows, probably a bit of both.

halkar

Originally posted by klaz
I hold to Israel's place there for two reasons: 1) theres no way they're going to leave, and 2) its UN approved....

1. Nope, they will not leave those places after all as said before its god given and when they wipe out Palestinians I wonder where else is next.
2. show me where UN approved? UN does not approve any land Israel is occupying, Not from Palestine nor from Syria or Lebanon. You can do google around and see how many towns villages have been occupied and people of those lands have been put in camps of today. Israel does not want peace, they just want to lock these people behind walls and control all aspect their life. How do you expect Palestinians to form a nation on their own while Israel trying to take control over them.

SeeYouJimmy

i think im gonna create an army of neo-christian fundamentalists and march on jerusalem. To hell with the israelis and the palesitinans, well seeing as its the centre of our religion dont we have as much right to be there too?

just a thought

halkar

They did that twice jimmy, ooops three times with Bush's crusade but not counting that as they got the locations wrong:D

SeeYouJimmy

heh heh heh

Hellrazer

Originally posted by klaz
I hold to Israel's place there for two reasons: 1) theres no way they're going to leave, and 2) its UN approved.

No there isnt any way the Israelis are going to leave--They occupy the most fertile land in that area--leaving the Palestinians with desert to try and make a living from,they buy up as much property in Jeruasalem that they can find even if it means forcing Arabs out with violence.Of course they`re not going to leave---They have it too handy.


Then theres the side of things that will affect us as Christians.In the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem there are shops with pictures/sculptures depicting the "New Temple"

The Jews want to knock down the Muslims second holiest Mosque and knock down the huge Christian church where all of Jesus`last few hours happened and have some Second Temple or something.Now Im not the most religious person in the world but there is definately some wierd sense when you walk into that church.You can put your hands down into the hole where the cross was,see the cave where he rose from etc etc.

As for UN recognised--The state os Israel in its current for is not recognised by any other country than the US.The UN considers the occupation of Palestinian land to be illegal and will only recognise Israel if and when they return to the way the borders were back in 1947.

SeeYouJimmy

i hanve nothing againts jews, and i cant stand the fact that every time myself (or any other person for that matter) voice my opinions on the palestine conlfict it appears that you are branded either

a) anti semetic, or

b) that you support the terrorist atrocites that the minority of palestinians have nothing to do with

in having met israelis on a number of occasions, i can safley say that as a whole i find them arrogant and paranoid.
yes its terrible what happenend to the jewish people in the second world war, but does this give the israelis a right to force innocent people off their lands, round them into camps, and subject them to hell every day of their lives?

it wasnt the palestininans fault that hitler hated jews,
and it definetly isnt their fault that the U.S have double bloody standards

makes me ****ing angry just talking about it

chabsey

Have to agree about the angry/paranoid thing...especially the younger ones who head to Asia after military service to 'relax' and 'let off steam'.

For 'relax' and 'let off steam' read 'act ignorantly' and 'be abusive'.

Not all, I've met some perfectly normal Israelis but the country seems to produce a pent-up anger-filled paranoid populace. Understandable I suppose but not nice to be around.

As for UN recognised--The state os Israel in its current for is not recognised by any other country than the US.The UN considers the occupation of Palestinian land to be illegal and will only recognise Israel if and when they return to the way the borders were back in 1947.

Hellraiser, I agree. In its current form, with the inclusions of areas taken, its not part of what the UN approved. And I do believe that Israel should move back to its original borders. However, alot of posters here wont even agree with that.

"Look, there's six arab nations about to jump on us with their amazing armies of super-weapons with extra explosion power. All we have is 6 twigs and some feathers....if we win this then surely it's proof that god is on our side!"

Chabsey, Again i find myself agreeing. They had a well trained army with experience troops. But don't forget that they were facing 6 Arab nations each of which had top of the line weaponry. So in a small way they did still have a victory against all odds. Most military analysts of teh time, belived that Israel would lose a war should they be attacked. Both them and the Arabs were wrong.

Nope, they will not leave those places after all as said before its god given and when they wipe out Palestinians I wonder where else is next.

And they wont leave the area that is Israel. And within the original borders they shouldn't have to. And before you get your back up, think carefully, about the reason why those 6 arab nations wanted to invade Israel. Peaceful relations? Perhaps to wipe all Jews off the face of the middle east?

Regardless, I don't believe theres a plan to wipe out all palestinians. Otherwise they would have done it by now. God knows they have the ability if they really needed to.

halkar

Klaz, do you really think all their army and high tech weapons would mean anything in the eyes of surrounding Arab countries? Arabs doesn't have to go war with Israel, they can close their borders and air-sea and let the Israel on their own without use of anything and have the same feeling as Palestinians. Of course this can lead a lot of troubles in the region but as long as Israel does not show the world that they really want peace and stop hiding behind US and not p!!ss of the region.
Can you imagine Israel surviving with no link to rest of the world if their air-land-and sea links closed. And to me that is what I am seeing as coming. And this can and will make Israel aggressive to the other nations. Unless UN start putting some serious sanctions to Israel as they do to other countries without US interference they will not do anything to have peace with Palestinians.
After all they do have nukes, remember? As long as they have nukes , no nation in middle east will feel safe with Israel and look what happens when others try to build up Nuclear arsenal? Again to me they are clearly a threat to the region and the world. And don't forget with their old minds they probably have more hate to Christians then to Muslims. What goes around comes around, do you feel safe sitting at home that Israel has uncontrolled nuclear activity?

Fionnan

Halkar,
The 1967 war was sparked ( among other causes) byt the Arabs closing off the straights of Tiran to Israeli shipping, ie a blockade. This action led to the defeat of almost the entire Arab world (Egypt, Syria Jordan) in 7 days and the loss of territory. The Arab countries have tried to blockade Israel, but they have always failed and ISrael has survived. Anyway Israel is self-sufficient in food and hi-tech industries(weapons), so a blockade alone would not lead to the destruction of Israel. Any blockade mounted would be smashed as it was before.

Fionnan

Nukes,
If Israel is ever facing military defeat( which means the extermination of its people), plenty of nukes, some on submarines, is a very good deterent for an invading army to push for the total defeat of Israel. Also last year the Israelis put a payload(a satellite) into geosynchronus orbit, which means any point on the globe can be hit with an Israeli nuke, which will certainly discourage any backers of the Arab countries from supplying to many weapons, ie the defeat of Israel would result in their destruction.
A previous example would be in 1973 when the Soviet Union pulled back its armies from entering Syria to help the Arabs after recieving a threat that the Israelis would send a 1 way airborne mission to nuke Moscow.

tall_freak

This is what gets me. People point to 100 years ago and say Arabs populated that region, and they were forcebly removed. So what? The British did the same to the Boers, but I don't see you shouting for the Boers to receive that land back from whoever owns it now. It has no meaning. Borders change, and people are moved out of their homes. Its only in the last 60 years that this has become somewhat of an issue

Klaz... arabs (jewish, muslim, christian, armenians, turks, greek etc etc,,,)... lived there (what is known as israel proper) up to 50 years ago,... not 100

The problem is ... 1)people dont acknowledge that this was a crime committed against the indeginous palestinian population
2) If they do admit it they do nothing..... this is still happening today as we speak... by denying the refugees the right to return... by imposing 24 hour curfews on months on end... and building a great wall on illegally occupied land (which no international body recognises) etc etc(the list of human right crimes commited by israel is too long to mention here)

The thing is that israel does not wish or push forward for peace

in march 2002 the arab league headed by the saudi government and fully backed by all arabic governments including palestiniens put forward a proposal to israel

withdraw to the 1967 boarders... allow the palestiniens a fully recognisable state with boarders, air and sea control... the refugees would have been delt with in an appropriate manner... those who wanted to remain in the country theyre in would recieve compensation and citizenship... and a solution would be found to those who insisted on returning

this was fully in line to past UN resolutions and i really cant see what else the israelis want at this point if they genuinely wanted peace

unfrortunately israels reply was storming into jenin and demolishing half the city center (at that time it recieved a lot of publicity cause it was called 'the jenin massacre'... if that actualy happened is debatable)....

as to israel military strenght... this is undisputed... but everyone knows that this is only because of the full amercian backing in forms of equipment and financial aid... its a sad fact but if tw the states withdraws its backing israel as a country cant last for long... and thats how it won all the past wars...

all its heavy equipment it uses are american... F16, apache helicopters... even its merkeva tanks are american tanks slightly modified

halkar

Fionnan, I don't beleive Israel can survive any blockage again. Of course they will use US and try to convince other nations but with the reputation US gaining in Middle East and their so called one sided Big Middle East project I doubt these people will take much. US and Israel clearly destroying ME. In 1967 with the blockage of Arab nations to Israel and among other reasons as you call, Israel was the first offensive. Of course they seen the threat maybe but they were not attacked first and that is what I said in my earlier post that it will be Israel that attacking those nations if they face a blocakage. Also I don't think Israel is self-sufficient in food as most of the shops are filled by products of other countries, what will they live on, bananas? Their hi-tech industries means nothing when they can't export their weapons to more corrupt countries and most of all they, like many nations in ME are dependant on the water that comes from abroad.
As for the nukes, I see no reason why Syria, Jordan, Egypt and other nations in ME to have nukes as long as Israel have them because Israel is clearly threating the region. So tell me why not sanction them too and control their capabilities like others in the region? Israel ignores the organization (so called UN ) that recognised her as country and violates more rules than anyother country in the world as yet they were allowed do so. And people wonders why the people of ME hates US and Israel so much.

What goes around comes around, do you feel safe sitting at home that Israel has uncontrolled nuclear activity?

Actually I don't feel safe with any nation having Nukes. That includes France, the US, Britain etc. And they're all uncontrolled.

Re Halkar:

Again to me they are clearly a threat to the region and the world.

I, on the other hand, don't see them as a threat to the world. To the region? Thats between them and the other Arab nations.
It takes two to tango, and the Arab nations have shown no restraint in the past, in this respect. And yet you don't see them as a
threat?

Klaz, do you really think all their army and high tech weapons would mean anything in the eyes of surrounding Arab countries?

Huh? Actually I think it was getting beaten on a number of occasions that helped hold back Arab invasions. Military might has only really hit Israel in the last 40 years.

Arabs doesn't have to go war with Israel, they can close their borders and air-sea and let the Israel on their own without use of anything
and have the same feeling as Palestinians.

Arabs never HAD to go to war with them in the first place. They just did. And Israel has shown itself quite capable of defeating blockades in the past.

Unless UN start putting some serious sanctions to Israel as they do to other countries without US
interference they will not do anything to have peace with Palestinians.

UN Sanctions only ever stick with US approval. At least i can't remember the US ever being over-ruled abt a nation.

Re: Tall_Freak

Klaz... arabs (jewish, muslim, christian, armenians, turks, greek etc etc,,,)... lived there (what is known as israel proper) up to 50 years ago,... not 100

Yes. Arabs. Not Palestinians. The 1947 UN Partition divided the area into three entities: a Jewish state, an Arab state, and an international zone around Jerusalem. On May 14, 1948,
the Provisional Government of Israel proclaimed the new State of Israel. So they weren't Arabs any longer, they were Israeli's. On May 15, 1948, the Arab states issued their response
statement and Arab armies invaded Israel and the first Arab-Israeli war began.

1)people dont acknowledge that this was a crime committed against the indeginous palestinian population

At least stick to your original points. They were Arabic, not Palestinian. So it was a crime to those Arabic tribes.

withdraw to the 1967 boarders... allow the palestiniens a fully recognisable state with boarders, air and sea control... the refugees would have been delt with in an appropriate manner... those who wanted to remain in the country theyre in would recieve compensation and citizenship... and a solution would be found to those who insisted on returning

Part of the reason why this isn't happening is fear. The thing is that Palestine, attacked Israel once already as a complete nation. Whats to stop them doing so again? Israel is stuck in a catch-22 situation.

as to israel military strenght... this is undisputed... but everyone knows that this is only because of the full amercian backing in forms of equipment and financial aid... its a sad fact but if tw the states withdraws its backing israel as a country cant last for long... and thats how it won all the past wars...

You might want to check this out before stating such things. Its tactics and skill thats the difference.

For example: It was only in 1964 that the US decided to start selling weapons to Israel. Before that, they refused to. In fact most countries refused to.

While the Arab nations were stocking up with modern weapons coming in predominately from the Soviets, Israel was buying its weapons from the Czech Ams trade. Nice comparison between WW2 weaponry and modern tanks.

all its heavy equipment it uses are american... F16, apache helicopters... even its merkeva tanks are american tanks slightly modified

Oh i agree. Nowadays the Israeli army uses mostly US equipment. However, israel does produce alot of its own equipment. hence the ability to survive a blockade of arms.

halkar

Thats between them and the other Arab nations? Since when US is an Arab nation and Israelis goes and sits on the table on behind Palestinians?

Tell me what would be the action of your peacefull Israel be if Palestinians or whoever you think they are just walked back in the lands that was taken by your so peaceful Israelis? Watch carefull what they want to do with their latest plan. They will leave some settlements and keep what they stole from Palestinians and they will not let Palestinians to return to these lands from their prison camps. And only few months ago when US put in place the Iraqi laws, it was there that Jews that was expelled could return back to Iraq and carry two passports. Of course this is probably for another topic what their intensions in Iraq are but the fact is if they can send their people to Iraq why can they not let palestinians to their homes.
How would they feel like if Iraqis told them nope you are not coming here stay where you are? Not only for Iraq for other countries too.

Since we will see more eastern Europe countries joining EU some Israelis already started looking for their roots in those countries in order to get their passports and leave. Should we tell them the same thing Sharon suggesting? After all he and Bush thinks that is peacefull.

Thats between them and the other Arab nations? Since when US is an Arab nation and Israelis goes and sits on the table on behind Palestinians?

No. I said its between Israel and the other Arab nations. The Involvement by the US comes in as between Israel and the US.

Tell me what would be the action of your peacefull Israel be if Palestinians or whoever you think they are just walked back in the lands that was taken by your so peaceful Israelis?

Halkar, I never said that Israel was peaceful. You're the one thats so intent on painting them as completely warmongering. What i'm pointing out is that the other Arab nations, Palestine included, aggressively brought about this situation. Or are you going to tell me that their actions didn't cause the occupation of Palestine?

Watch carefull what they want to do with their latest plan. They will leave some settlements and keep what they stole from Palestinians and they will not let Palestinians to return to these lands from their prison camps. And only few months ago when US put in place the Iraqi laws, it was there that Jews that was expelled could return back to Iraq and carry two passports. Of course this is probably for another topic what their intensions in Iraq are but the fact is if they can send their people to Iraq why can they not let palestinians to their homes.

I've already said that i don't agree with the resettlements by Israelis. What i don't agree with you about, is your references about prior to the Foundation of both Palestine & Israel....

halkar

What Sharon did on behind Palestinians was very poor sign of peace showing from their side. And we see Bush going once again in front of the world and saying that Israel is making a big attempt for peace. Wherever you look at his plan, there is nothing for Palestinians in it. As I said before they will not be able to form a nation with Israel occupaying their lands and seperating their nation. Do you really think these people would like to be checked going to work to another Palestinian city which passes Israel or go and visit their families in other town with having to pass Israel? And don't forget the wall that they are building, refugee camps every where full of people that have been expelled from their homes and put there all because Israel decided to take their lands and now they loose their hope totaly if Sharon presses on its plan and world won't do anything about it. To me a big Yes, that this is sign of Ethnic Cleansing.
Both sides have to comprimise and show some willingness, leave the past behind and look for a better future. As I put in example before with Cyprus and the efforts of them trying to unite after 30 years should set some form of example to Israeli and Palestinians that the peace can happen if both sides leave their differences and past behind and compromise. Ok, Cyprus is not united yet but at least they are trying with the help of UN.

tall_freak

ok klaz.... to clarify some things for u

for some reason u diffrentiate between arabs and palestiniens.... they are one and the same

its like saying that france is european... by commiting an assault against france u will commit an assault against europe and the EU.... so if tommorrow someone invades france it will be silly to say that its not a crime against europe.. same with the issue of palestine and arabs... and in a previous post i explained the concept of palestine to u... like i said it may have never existed on a map... but people lived there... and expelling them for idiological reasons is a crime

and israel expelled the majority of the Muslim and christian palestiniens... this is well know... and the reason they did this is to achieve a jewish majority ... this is ethnic cleansing... the few that remained were lucky because they lived in big cities like haifa and yaffa... and it wasnt possible at that time to expell 10,000 people living in these major cities... but most of the villages and country towns were wiped out

2)as to the wars the arab countries fought with israel
the first would have been in 1948... understand at that time that a lot of killing was going on... by both the indiginous palestiniens and the immigrant jewish population... britain decided it cant handle it and passed the buck to the UN... they in turn did nothing to stop the violence and restore peace.... sure they issued resolution and ceasefires but no one was listening
the israelis at that point were going out of control... better armed than there palestinien fighters and better organised they went and invaded and expelled most of what they got there hands on....
At that time the arabic armies went in to try to control things... israel was taking more than what the UN resolution had declared... thousands of refugees were running away from the war... so they went in to hold ground u can say... to stop the israeli expansion... after taking control of what was not overtaken by the israelis they stopped... which is lucky cause if they hadnt israel would have went into the west bank and gaza and expelled everyone there... which is what they did in all the other places

and dont say the arab armies invaded israel... it was israel that initially invaded to establish its presence... and i for one am totally against the reason of why the state of israel was establish in the first place....

look.... do u agree with the principle of going into an area of land, inhabitated by indiginous people and expelling them to set up your own state... cause i dont
and i know it happened in the past... but im against it... and i was thinking that by living in the 21st centuray this mentality should no longer exist.... but unfortunately israel is still doing this today... backed by the US

the roots of the problem goes back in history to the creation of the state of israel... an injustice was commited on the palestiniens... and the only way to rectify that is for both sides to admit what happened and come to a resolution

like i mentioned previously... the the arab countries put forward a proporsal which if implemented would have hopefully established peace in the region,,, and it was reaching out for a dialogue with the israelis.. rather than dealing from behind the curtain which is what happens in the UN

how would u like this conflict to resolve... what would u see as a justifiable end??

vorbis

tall_freak I think even the Arab countries involved in the 1948 war will tell you themselves what their motives were. The intention was to wipe out Israel not some peacemaking role. Israel has done a lot wrong but theres no need to be making up stuff.

tall_freak

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for some reason u diffrentiate between arabs and palestiniens.... they are one and the same

When you're talking about the population that was there before the state of palestine was formed yes i do. Before palestine was recognised by the UN it didn't exist as a nation. It was a region with no national identity. That is what i think you have problems recognising.

and israel expelled the majority of the Muslim and christian palestiniens... this is well know... and the reason they did this is to achieve a jewish majority ... this is ethnic cleansing... the few that remained were lucky because they lived in big cities like haifa and yaffa... and it wasnt possible at that time to expell 10,000 people living in these major cities... but most of the villages and country towns were wiped out

Please be consistent. If you're going to claim that Israelis participated in ethnic cleansing at that time at least state that they actually did properly. If they had wanted to ethnic leanse that region, they could have done so. They expelled people from the region, yes. But it was not ethnic cleansing. Its called land grabbing. Sure, if they had kicked out the majority of people living in the region, i could agree, but they did not.

the first would have been in 1948... understand at that time that a lot of killing was going on... by both the indiginous palestiniens and the immigrant jewish population... britain decided it cant handle it and passed the buck to the UN... they in turn did nothing to stop the violence and restore peace.... sure they issued resolution and ceasefires but no one was listening

Ahh the "war of independence". And you'll get no objection from me that Jewish groups acted in terrorist fashion. Britain buggered out, and the UN took the decision upon themselves. Oddly enough leading up to the decision to create palestine, the Arab nations were more than happy to follow along. It was only when they decided that Israel received too many concessions that they decided to go to war. So who is the aggressor here? The Arab nations of course.

the israelis at that point were going out of control... better armed than there palestinien fighters and better organised they went and invaded and expelled most of what they got there hands on....

Are you serious? You really need to read some history on the subject. israaeli forces were less equipped than the enemy. Numerically they were far fewer. It was only in discipline and tactics that the Israeli's were far superior. And they whipped ass. Even so, the Arab forces almost managed to pierce the Israeli defenses. Almost.

At that time the arabic armies went in to try to control things... israel was taking more than what the UN resolution had declared... thousands of refugees were running away from the war... so they went in to hold ground u can say... to stop the israeli expansion... after taking control of what was not overtaken by the israelis they stopped... which is lucky cause if they hadnt israel would have went into the west bank and gaza and expelled everyone there... which is what they did in all the other places

You really are smoking some weird stuff. At the start the Arab nations predominately, Jordan & Egypt, pushed for the destruction of the Jews in the middle east. They claimed a holy war against israel, and tried to win by force of Arms. They failed. They went in because they were unhappy with the UN decision. This was not because of palestine, but a way to garner more power. And it was only in the 60's that Israel really started grabbing land.

and dont say the arab armies invaded israel... it was israel that initially invaded to establish its presence... and i for one am totally against the reason of why the state of israel was establish in the first place....

The Arab Nations started this. All of it. The UN described the borders for BOTH palestine and Israel. It was an act of war by Palestine and the other Arab nations that caused Israel to start occupying other nations areas. Palestine attacked Israel, got its head handed back to them, and eventually got occupied.

And it was the UN that established Israel in the Middle east, so blame them.

And you're against Israel even though you don't seem to have a clue what lead up to its creation or what happened afterwards?

look.... do u agree with the principle of going into an area of land, inhabitated by indiginous people and expelling them to set up your own state... cause i dont

Look abt four lines up.

and i know it happened in the past... but im against it... and i was thinking that by living in the 21st centuray this mentality should no longer exist.... but unfortunately israel is still doing this today... backed by the US

As far as i'm aware, Israel hasn't invaded any other nations lately. Its only Palestine that has any significiant land occupied by Israel. And the factors for the occupation prove that they were entitled to occupy. Its only their treatment of the Palestinians thats a real issue.

the roots of the problem goes back in history to the creation of the state of israel... an injustice was commited on the palestiniens... and the only way to rectify that is for both sides to admit what happened and come to a resolution

Yada yada yada... Blame israel on one hand, and then say that both sides need to recognise it and move on? I agree with the moving on part.

like i mentioned previously... the the arab countries put forward a proporsal which if implemented would have hopefully established peace in the region,,, and it was reaching out for a dialogue with the israelis.. rather than dealing from behind the curtain which is what happens in the UN

Look both sides, have made proposals towards peace. I agree that Israel has acted like dumbasses, but so too have the Palestinians. But unfortuently, Its only going to be through the UN that peace will happen there. because god knows there's so much bad blood, and crap going on that it will take an external entity to enforce a peace on both sides.

how would u like this conflict to resolve... what would u see as a justifiable end??

The Million dollar question. Nuke both countries and let the world move on? Have Ireland invade and take over? there is no bloody answer, as multiple threads on these boards by both pro-Israeli & pro-palestinians have posted.

halkar

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As I said before they will not be able to form a nation with Israel occupaying their lands and seperating their nation. Do you really think these people would like to be checked going to work to another Palestinian city which passes Israel or go and visit their families in other town with having to pass Israel?

Germany managed it for a few decades, and Ireland doesn't have the North, Cryprus is slip in two. Compromise and there might be peace. Stick to complete freedom for all of Palestine and you'll probably see war for the next four decades.

Both sides have to comprimise and show some willingness, leave the past behind and look for a better future. As I put in example before with Cyprus and the efforts of them trying to unite after 30 years should set some form of example to Israeli and Palestinians that the peace can happen if both sides leave their differences and past behind and compromise.

I agree Totally

halkar

Having been watching Cyprus issues closely, If re-unification won't take place after votes (as it seems Turks are on Yes side and Greeks on No, we will know tonight) looks like there will be some changes in the Island for good, me thinks. At first EU wants to implement open border policy where no passport will be needed for both sides, 2 years ago you couldn't dream of crossing there
I don't know the all story there but if Greeks and Turks can do it (whom are enemies of centuries, far longer than Israeli and Palestinians) I don't see why they can't do either, at least to try.
Maybe we have some hope for United Ireland too one day:cool: