The sickening hypocrisy of Sinn Féin.

ReefBreak

Sinn Féin and the PUP are today expected to receive fines for their ongoing links with paramilitarism. I think the fines are justified. But what bothers me most is the response from Sinn Fein, where they stated they should not be held accountable for the actions of others.

Yet when when you ask Sinn Fein to explain their increased vote since the cease-fire, they will inevitably ramble on about how they were primarily responsible for the creation of peace. But as they themselves have just said, surely they should not be held accountable for the actions of others.

So this is how it works with the Shinners, is it? We must praise them when the IRA stop murdering people, but conveniently pretend they're not responsible when the IRA start abducting people. Of course, in a normal society, if I was a serial killer, and then I decided to stop serial-killing, I wouldn't expect much in the way of praise. Not murdering, abducting or knee-capping people is simply what normal, civilised people do.

For those about to type the usual SF response: "what about the loyalist paramilitaries?" Then simple re-read the above paragraph and replace "Sinn Fein" with "PUP". And yes, I know, the Loyalists are worse, and if this board had a number of posters that voted for parties with links to terrorists, then I would be writing in opposition to them.

shotamoose

Yes, Sinn Fein are hypocrites. I find the idea of fining a party for links to paramilitaries kind of weird, though. Seems like it's a particularly lame way of dealing with such a serious problem. But maybe hitting them in the wallet is actually the best way to do it.

[off-topic]Speaking of sickening hypocrisy, Reefbreak, did you ever get around to substantiating those allegations of anti-Semitism against RTE? Or are you going to withdraw them?[/off-topic]

ReefBreak

Originally posted by shotamoose
[off-topic]Speaking of sickening hypocrisy, Reefbreak, did you ever get around to substantiating those allegations of anti-Semitism against RTE? Or are you going to withdraw them?[/off-topic]

I still believe it, and it's obvious that until I get tapes of previous 9 and 6-1 news programmes and post them on the web, only then can I prove it to your satisfaction. Although like I said before, leading with the demolition of a suicide bomber's house before the murder of 15 innocent students earlier in the day was the most disgraceful, biased reporting I've ever seen on a news channel anywhere. And yes, I am using this as proof that the news editors in RTE are anti-semitic. Prime Time seem to be a little bit more balanced from what I've seen. But this is off-topic, and if you'd like to start a new one, I'd be happy to join in.

Villain

First of all there not being fined, the grants they receive from the British Government are being reduced.

Secondly ReefBreak, Sinn Fein are one of teh main reasons why teh IRA are on a Cease Fire they are also the reason why arms have been decommisioned.

They cannot control every single member of the IRA and they have never claimed to do so, I believe teh main reason for this was the kidnapping of a male in Belfast.

I also believe that the report states most of the illegal activity being carried out in the north is by loyalists.

from RTE:
"Mr Ahern said that a number of months ago he referred to the fact that the Provisional IRA had been involved in criminality in Dublin Port, and added that today he still believes that".

So why the **** don't they make arrests and bring these people to justice:rolleyes:

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Villain

Originally posted by daveirl
Two wrongs don't make a right. I learned that a long time ago.

I wasn't trying to say that, but just people always seem to talk about republican groups and Nationlist Party's when they talk about troubles.

I wish merely stating that most of the illegal activity is being carried out by loyalists.

pdh

I think ReefBreak should start a campaign to have anybody (North or South) suspected of having Republican views stripped of their constitutional rights and any legal protection they might have.

That would take care of the recent elections results which he doesn’t like. After that, he could then round them up and forcibly require them to live in restricted areas where surveillance and control would be easier.

This policy would give him and his colleagues plenty of time to get the ovens built so that the final solution can be put in place to that troublesome problem known as Irish sovereignty.

Then perhaps he will be able to have wet dreams about rejoining the Empire !!!!!!!!

BarryFry

So Sinn Fein will receive a "reduction in the grants they receive from the BRITISH Government"?

Always interesting to find out who lives off the proceeds of the Empire.....

Villain

Originally posted by BarryFry
So Sinn Fein will receive a "reduction in the grants they receive from the BRITISH Government"?

Always interesting to find out who lives off the proceeds of the Empire.....

Do you see a problem with that??

I believe it to the Northern Ireland government actually, but I could stand corrected, every party that is elected receives the funding, I suppose next you'l say they shouldn't run for the elections;)

BuffyBot

Originally posted by irish1
I wasn't trying to say that, but just people always seem to talk about republican groups and Nationlist Party's when they talk about troubles.

I wish merely stating that most of the illegal activity is being carried out by loyalists.

I guess you missed the bit where he said "And yes, I know, the Loyalists are worse"?

Villain

Originally posted by BuffyBot
I guess you missed the bit where he said "And yes, I know, the Loyalists are worse"?

I was replying to daveirl and he didn't say that

Johnny 5

You West-Brits won't be happy until the 26 counties are back in Kingdom!
Buy up your poppy's now.

I think it's slightly hypocritical of you all to mention Sinn Féin hypocrisy anytime a SF member condemns violence, yet when he doesn't you get in a strop? A SF member should be commended for speaking against violence, its a sign of changing times. SF members have condemned ALL violence in recent years, but Unionist politicians are deafly quiet when it comes to loyalist violence.

Let's have a talk about that, and the soaring levels of loyalist crime and racism?

No? I'll get me coat then.

BarryFry

Originally posted by irish1
Do you see a problem with that??

I believe it to the Northern Ireland government actually, but I could stand corrected, every party that is elected receives the funding, I suppose next you'l say they shouldn't run for the elections;)

Not if you don't! I'm not a committed Republican. Or Unionist, for that matter.

However, If I was a Republican, I would be wondering if a political party would really be interested in divorcing itself from the institutions that fund it.

Not many turkeys vote for Christmas.

Villain

Originally posted by BarryFry
Not if you don't! I'm not a committed Republican. Or Unionist, for that matter.

However, If I was a Republican, I would be wondering if a political party would really be interested in divorcing itself from the institutions that fund it.

Not many turkeys vote for Christmas.

lol
Not many turkeys are democratically elected to represent the people of Northern Ireland. I don't see an issue with any elected party receiving grants:D

thejollyrodger

Yes Sinn Fein are terrorists. Why do people in the republic of ireland vote for them?

Villain

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
Yes Sinn Fein are terrorists. Why do people in the republic of ireland vote for them?

:rolleyes: omg the wise just awoke and spoke.

Can you please post proof???

Thanks:)

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Johnny 5
You West-Brits won't be happy until the 26 counties are back in Kingdom!
Buy up your poppy's now.

I think it's slightly hypocritical of you all to mention Sinn Féin hypocrisy anytime a SF member condemns violence, yet when he doesn't you get in a strop? A SF member should be commended for speaking against violence, its a sign of changing times. SF members have condemned ALL violence in recent years, but Unionist politicians are deafly quiet when it comes to loyalist violence.

Let's have a talk about that, and the soaring levels of loyalist crime and racism?

No? I'll get me coat then.

First of all, like I said above, I could talk all day about loyalist violence, racism, drug-dealing and crime. However, like I said above, there are no pro-loyalist posters on this board, so it'd be just everyone agreeing with everyone. In case you still don't understand Johnny 5, let me put it a bit clearer: I think loyalist paramilitary scum are WORSE than the republican paramilitary scum. That being said I still think they're both evil, and with no place on this island.

Originally posted by pdh
I think ReefBreak should start a campaign to have anybody (North or South) suspected of having Republican views stripped of their constitutional rights and any legal protection they might have.

That would take care of the recent elections results which he doesn’t like. After that, he could then round them up and forcibly require them to live in restricted areas where surveillance and control would be easier.

This policy would give him and his colleagues plenty of time to get the ovens built so that the final solution can be put in place to that troublesome problem known as Irish sovereignty.

Then perhaps he will be able to have wet dreams about rejoining the Empire !!!!!!!!

I always find it funny when the shinners start accusing people that criticise SF of being "west-brit". It's generally done when they can't think of anything else to argue with:
"I despise Sinn Féin and the 'RA, because <insert much logical, reasoned argument here>."
"Ah, um, er... YOU'RE A WEST-BRIT!"

I guess this means that every normal, civilised person that doesn't vote for parties with links to murderous terrorists scumbags are "West-Brits" that "won't be happy until the 26 counties are back in Kingdom" or have "wet dreams about rejoining the Empire". That's an awful lot of west-brits down here - about 95% of the population, if you're to go by the last General Election. I can't believe we're not part of the UK already!

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
:rolleyes: omg the wise just awoke and spoke.

Can you please post proof???

Thanks:)

No problem. Martin Ferris - convicted of IRA gun-running. Arthur Morgan - convicted of terrorist offences. Martin McGuinness - admitted on numerous occasions to being a member of a terrorist organisation that murdered of 1800 people. And there's plenty more where these three examples came from.

And of course, today's IMC report which stated that senior members of the Sinn Féin were also members of the 'RA.

dathi1

Well you could vote for Fianna gael...former paramilitary blueshirts..General O'Connor etc...or you could vote for Pat Rabbite former Officials, former Sinn Fein the workers party never gave up their guns etc...or Fianna Fail former anti treaty....u could go on and on....OR you could vote for Mary Horney and Ahearn....Logistics supporter for GW through Shannon in the killing of 10,000 innocent Iraqi civilians...The provos have a long way to go to catch up on them.
The hipocrisy of Sinn Fein...yeah right.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by irish1
I was replying to daveirl and he didn't say that

Apologies for the misquote, but that isn't to say that its not an arguement you haven't trotted out before in these sort of debates. When the question arises it generally goes something along the following:

"Oh but the loyalists were worse!"
"We know. We've admitted that but that isn't the point"
"Why doesn't anyone recognise that the loyalists were worse?"

As dave said, two wrongs most certainly don't make a right.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
No problem. Martin Ferris - convicted of IRA gun-running. Arthur Morgan - convicted of terrorist offences. Martin McGuinness - admitted on numerous occasions to being a member of a terrorist organisation that murdered of 1800 people. And there's plenty more where these three examples came from.

And of course, today's IMC report which stated that senior members of the Sinn Féin were also members of the 'RA.

Thats in the past, Sinn Fein have chosen the political channel now.

Now Reefbreak as dathi1 pointed out if you go far enough back into most party's history you'l see that their is such history.

IMC didn't name names, which I can't understand, neither did they provide PROOF.

I wonder some times reefbreak if people like would rather Ferris went back to his gun running ways and McGuiness led IRA men to kill hundreds again, because you seem to be only able to revel in the past, and not recognise the stride forward that SF have made for the peace process and the decommisioning of weapons

Mighty_Mouse

I find the idea of fining a party for links to paramilitaries kind of weird

Its been the way for the last hundred years in Ireland

If I was a Republican, I would be wondering if a political party would really be interested in divorcing itself from the institutions that fund it.

Sinn Fein are not funded by the IRA

And of course, today's IMC report which stated that senior members of the Sinn Féin were also members of the 'RA

Haven't read the report but are you still surprised current SF members were formly IRA

That's an awful lot of west-brits down here - about 95% of the population, if you're to go by the last General Election

How do you figure this?

But what bothers me most is the response from Sinn Fein, where they stated they should not be held accountable for the actions of others

How can SF control the IRA? Of coarse there are ties but surely you can't believe SF control the IRA?

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse

Haven't read the report but are you still surprised current SF members were formly IRA How do you figure this? How can SF control the IRA? Of coarse there are ties but surely you can't believe SF control the IRA?

Hmmm, the report , which I have not read either is said to state that top members of SF are also top members of the IRA.
John O' Donohoe was asked on morning Ireland, did he see files when minister for justice that showed top members of Sinn Féin were also top members of the IRA and he said he did but declined to name them.
I'd assume that those were amonst other things, Garda files he was referring to.
Now who is lying...John O' Donohoe or the Gardaí
Can you say here that they are?
I think it would be a national scandal if they were, so are they? in your opinion?

To be honest, I take it as a given that SF and the IRA are intertwined.
Theres been a semi official policy of pussy footing around this in recent years and rightly so.
It's pragmatism.
It doesn't make the fact that the IRA still are associated with crime right though.
And by association it makes SF look murky.
Theres only one cure for that, take the bull by the horns and get the IRA to end all associations with crime.
No association=nodirt=cleaner image
That would be nice wouldn't it, then we could all look at SF policies and see if they are worth voting for, besides concerning ourselves with whether they have a private army or not.

Mighty_Mouse

to state that top members of SF are also top members of the IRA. I think it would be a national scandal if they were, so are they? in your opinion?

I dont believe this. Maby formly but not currenlty.At the end of the day Gardai files are all guesswork when it comes to SF and the IRA. Didn't they say Gerry Adams was in the IRA. After an initial "controversy" it quickly died down as FF/PD's couldn't substantiate it in any way.

It doesn't make the fact that the IRA still are associated with crime right thoug

Does anybody have estimates of the involvement of the IRA in organised crime outside of policing their own areas(punishment beatings etc). Most the reports I've heard or read always lump "republicans" together when reporting on crime. This means theres never a distinction between the REAL IRA and the provo's. Personally I think IRA organised crime is virtually non-existant.

besides concerning ourselves with whether they have a private army or not

This has always struck me as a little weird.Even if the IRA never officially disband and SF get elected to government. Are they suddenly gonna produce the IRA as the police force for the country or something? The IRA have long ceased to be a threat to any government.

PS. I do think they will disband in a few years if we get a fully operating government in the North. Its just a matter of keeping the hardliners in the process. (something Trimble has completely failed to do)

swiss

I don't think anyone here is surprised by the results of this report. Sinn Féin and the IRA have been inextricably linked since it's inception, and this report is merely furthur evidence of that.

Instead let's concentrate on why Sinn Féin are so scathing in thier abuse of this report (denouncing it as a sham). The most obvious reason is that they will lose some money that they receive from the British government as a result of these links. Ignoring the rich irony inherent to a system of government that pays money to a party that seeks to seperate from that government, this is unlikely to cause SF much hardship. SF are one of the best financed parties in the north, thanks to the racketeering carried out by thier IRA affiliates.

Are SF really so disjointed from reality? From Martin McGuinness's leading role in the IRA to Martin Ferris' gun running role, we know that the highest echelons of Sinn Féin have connections with the IRA. Recently Gerry Adams professed himself to be 'flabbergasted' when Bertie Ahern stated that he always assumed he was in the IRA, an assumption that would hardly cause SF/IRA supporters to blink.

I think SF are taking the incongrous position of on one hand taking full responsibility for any progress or cessation of violence that takes place in the north and conveniently blaming any flare in the violence on either the unionists/loyalists, or the british or Irish governments. To show, or attempt to show that the IRA are still engaged in criminality, and that SF are still inextricably linked with that organisation, is something that SF want to avoid at all costs, even when the truth of the matter is glaringly obvious.

The obvious reason for this is for political gain. A nice, rosy image of Sinn Féin as the bastions of peace and progress in the north, unspoiled by the nasty truth about their ongoing involvement and links to criminality appeals to voters. Of course, extra votes means an even greater mandate, allowing them to perpetuate even more abuses.

Mighty_Mouse

The most obvious reason is that they will lose some money that they receive from the British government

I dont think this is the reason they disagree with the report.

SF are one of the best financed parties in the north, thanks to the racketeering carried out by thier IRA affiliates.

Well financed - not sure.
Financed - mostly political donations
Racketeering - I don't think this is true at all

Recently Gerry Adams professed himself to be 'flabbergasted' when Bertie Ahern stated that he always assumed he was in the IRA, an assumption that would hardly cause SF/IRA supporters to blink

The point here is he has no reason to say he wasn't unless he actually wasn't!!! Its not like its gonna make a difference regardless.

Of course, extra votes means an even greater mandate, allowing them to perpetuate even more abuses

Such as?

swiss

I dont think this is the reason they disagree with the report.

I don't think so either, I simply said it was the most obvious reason. The real reason, as I explained, was that SF want to furthur the perception that they are the bastions of progress in the north, without regard to their criminal links with the IRA.

Well financed - not sure.
Financed - mostly political donations
Racketeering - I don't think this is true at all

Sinn Féin are a well financed party. Thier party coffers hold more than any other party in this state. Some of these funds do come from political donations, particularly from the states (which IIRC is estimated at €1m yearly) but also comes from the spoils of IRA racketeering. This racketeering includes extortion, protection, smuggling, tax scams and so on.

Villain

Originally posted by swiss
Sinn Féin are a well financed party. Thier party coffers hold more than any other party in this state. Some of these funds do come from political donations, particularly from the states (which IIRC is estimated at €1m yearly) but also comes from the spoils of IRA racketeering. This racketeering includes extortion, protection, smuggling, tax scams and so on.

Disagree 100%, is there any proof that this racketeering which includes "extortion, protection, smuggling, tax scams and so on" is providing money to Sinn Fein??

I don't think people should make such accusations without any proof, it would not be tolerated if FF or FG were accused of such without proof.

People seem to have 1 rule for SF and another for every other party.

Originally posted by irish1

I don't think people should make such accusations without any proof, it would not be tolerated if FF or FG were accused of such without proof.

Laugh out loud.
It would not be tolerated if the mainstream parties had members in common with a private army either.
So you are saying no IRA funds have made their way to Sinn Féin

Fair enough I believe you

pork99

I have heard that there is a new generation coming up in the leadership of the PIRA.

Apparently the Gardai nabbed a couple of them cutting a deal with some drug barons in Dublin.

I have tried to find a link to this story but can't. Anyone heard about this?

It seems to me we are going to have a serious ongoing problem with organised crime in this country. Between restless Provisional IRA, Continuity IRA, Real IRA and the I Can't Believe It's Not The IRA and so on you have a bunch of people who have nothing to contribute to civil society and are used to getting easy money by putting guns to peoples heads.

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
Laugh out loud.
It would not be tolerated if the mainstream parties had members in common with a private army either.
So you are saying no IRA funds have made their way to Sinn Féin

Fair enough I believe you

laugh away, I'm saying there is no proof and without that it is wrong to accuse.

I could say that FF are corrupt and that they continue to receive large payments from developers. But I have no proof so I wouldn't say it.

As I say 1 rule fro SF and another for all the other party's.

It's quite simple really earthman, but can't seem to grasp it