Finally New Trainer Aircraft Arrive To The Air Corps!!

Morpheus

At last they are here!!!

for anyone interested information follows...



from: http://www.military.ie/pr/19-04-2004.htm

Press Releases
Date 19 April 2004

ARRIVAL OF NEW TRAINER AIRCRAFT TO THE AIR CORPS
The Minister for Defence, Mr Michael Smith T.D. and the Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Jim Sreenan will attend the arrival of three Pilatus PC-9M aircraft to the Air Corps on Wednesday 21 April in Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, at 1500 hrs.

The turbo propeller training aircraft are the first three of eight aircraft purchased to replace the Siai Marchetti aircraft in the pilot training role. The Pilatus PC-9M are manufactured by Pilatus Aircraft Ltd, Stans, Switzerland. The overall cost of the contract for eight aircraft is approx €60 million.

Members of the media are invited to view the arrival of the aircraft at 1500 hrs approximately. The arrival will provide excellent photographic opportunities. Those wishing to attend should meet the Defence Forces Press Office Personnel as follows:

ARRIVAL OF NEW TRAINER AIRCRAFT

Day/Date: Wednesday 21 April 04.

Location: Main Gate, Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel

Time: 14.45 hrs.

For further information contact Captain Sean O Fátharta at the above numbers.

dahamsta

Wow, let's have a big party! :rolleyes:

thejollyrodger

Great news for the Air Corps !! and the Defence Forces as a whole they really needed those the trainers.

Morpheus

Well... this is the politics board,

Politics implying matters to do with government,

The Department of Defence being a department of said government,

The above implies that with the lack of a forum specifically for those interested in Irish Military or Military Aviation, I thought Id place it here.

:rolleyes: ill bring the beer.

Sleipnir

pics here

thejollyrodger

there seems to be a board decicated with this sort of stuff : -
http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/board/

Morpheus

Some of my buddys are on this board only, so I posted it here.:cool:

Walter Ego

What precisely are they training for?
Will the pilots then graduate to a fully fledged operational fighter?

What do you mean,"no". Are you trying to tell me all they will ever do is fly in circles over Kildare?

Don't tell me search and rescue. That is really only practical from a helicopter and the ones we have were early designs by Michaelangelo. I think they run on a mixture of turf and parrafin.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud the Defence Forces but i abhor the waste of my tax money.

pork99

I could be wrong but in the unlikely event that we ever face a Sept 11 style attack we have nothing that could catch up with let alone shot down even a civilian airliner

Morpheus

The money for these aircraft came from the sale of Defence Forces Land and Buildings that are no longer in use, so while you abhor the use of your tax payers money, it wasnt used to buy these aircraft, nor indeed to buy the new govt jet that arrived a few months ago...

Get your facts right and if your really concerned about the state of the aircorps as your post suggests in its mockery of the current state of affairs, applaud the fact that at least they are getting equipment, ask the politicians what they are going to do about it, ask them why we should have to depend on other countries air assets when on UN work.

Also do me a favour and look up the roles the aircorps do, they are an air corps they support the army in a ground attack role, in troop transport, parachuting, re-supply, movement of material assets (weapons, food and equipment) and carry out sea surveillance which our navy can barely cover with the lack of ships. Do you think they can just climb on a recconaissance plane like the CASA 235 and fly it without any turboprob single engined training? All this with an ageing and dangerous fleet or aircraft. They are also used as air ambulance and rapid transfer of organs for transplants.

They are further cost cutting by going to an aircorps with ony 2 or 3 types of craft as opposed to 7 or 8 and reducing the costs of maintenance required on older aircraft as well as doing away with trying to procure replacement parts that arent manufactured anymore.

The SAR thing was only a secondary role to the aircorps primary mission, in retrospect they will be better able to serve their primary roles now that they have freed up equipment from SAR...

If your so worried about your tax, think about this, until recently when the aircorps was supplying SAR it was a free service provided by a govt dept through its own budget, now SAR is provided by a private company that our tax is paying for and believe me its FAR from cheap.

Short of calling you a muppet, id ask you to post sensibly and look up the facts before you preach.

slan leat.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Walter Ego
Don't tell me search and rescue. That is really only practical from a helicopter and the ones we have were early designs by Michaelangelo. I think they run on a mixture of turf and parrafin.

To be fair, the S61N is a pretty damn cool chopper.

ishmael whale

I've had a look at the picture. Dumb question. Is that all you get for €7.5 million?

dahamsta

Originally posted by Morphéus
The money for these aircraft came from the sale of Defence Forces Land and Buildings that are no longer in use, so while you abhor the use of your tax payers money, it wasnt used to buy these aircraft, nor indeed to buy the new govt jet that arrived a few months ago...

ROFL. What do you think bought the land and buildings? Magic beans?

Ok ok, they were prolly "acquired" in nineteen-o-splash for a pittance, but still, comical.

adam

Sleipnir

Originally posted by pork99
I could be wrong but in the unlikely event that we ever face a Sept 11 style attack we have nothing that could catch up with let alone shot down even a civilian airliner

In that extremly unlikely event, SAM's would be a more than adequate defence.
Plus, there would be far easier ways to attack assets in Ireland. We don't have any skyscrapers to knock down.

Walter Ego

The money for these aircraft came from the sale of Defence Forces Land and Buildings that are no longer in use

Surely this land was an asset owned by the taxpayer? So we're still talking tax money.

applaud the fact that at least they are getting equipment

I'm just asking what are they going to do with it?

they support the army in a ground attack role, in troop transport, parachuting, re-supply, movement of material assets (weapons, food and equipment)

Who did they Irish Army last attack?
Are these aircraft actually armed with effective weapons?
Is there a budget to fire live ammunition?
How many troops can these aircraft transport?
How many Irish trained parachutists are in th Irish Army and I stress Irish trained?
How much materiel can these aircraft carry?

carry out sea surveillance which our navy can barely cover with the lack of ships. Do you think they can just climb on a recconaissance plane like the CASA 235 and fly it without any turboprob single engined training?

What is the point of sea surveillance if there are no forces to follow up?

An ageing and dangerous fleet or aircraft.
They are further cost cutting by going to an aircorps with ony 2 or 3 types of craft as opposed to 7 or 8 and reducing the costs of maintenance required on older aircraft as well as doing away with trying to procure replacement parts that arent manufactured anymore.

My point exactly. The air corps have been flying junk at tremendous cost to the taxpayer.

They are also used as air ambulance and rapid transfer of organs for transplants.

This is a perfectly legitimate use of a state asset to aid the citizens of the state who paid for it.

The SAR thing was only a secondary role to the aircorps primary mission, in retrospect they will be better able to serve their primary roles now that they have freed up equipment from SAR...

I disagree in a neutral peacetime country what other role could they fulfill?

If your so worried about your tax, think about this, until recently when the aircorps was supplying SAR it was a free service provided by a govt dept through its own budget, now SAR is provided by a private company that our tax is paying for and believe me its FAR from cheap.

SAR should be carried out by the Air Corps, not by some private company "in the know".

Celtic helicopters, Ciaran Haughey. Now where have I heard that name before?

Short of calling you a muppet.

Not everbody who disagrees with you point of view is a muppet. I just stated my views with no personal attack on anybody.

Sleipnir

Originally posted by ishmael whale
I've had a look at the picture. Dumb question. Is that all you get for €7.5 million?

well they're quite a bit better than your bog-standard cessna. They have pretty modern avionics.
The 70 million also includes a complete training system & spares.
stepped ejection seats
ventral airbrake
electronic flight instrumentation and environmental control systems

Morpheus

yes that is a really dumb question.

"Your" not actually buying anything, so dont be complaining. The Department of defence paid for them out of their OWN coffers.

This was tendered; and; in the opinion of the most underfunded and (financially) tightly run department in government; it was the best solution.

Believe me, when a government department has to spend its own money and not taxpayers money, its amazing how good they can be at getting a good deal.

The american firms who were in contention were offering less for more in the super tucano.

This aircraft is one of the best in the role as a trainer. The manufacturer has a lot of experience with supplying the aircraft in question to other armys and air-forces.

Look, if we have these brilliant but expensive CASA maritime patrol turboprop aircraft flying around drug busting and stopping illegal fishing, and then go cheap and train our pilots in an old cessna or marchetti piston engined aircraft, its kinda unsafe and doesnt make sense really.

These aircraft come with 2 ejector seats and a proper modern "glass" cockpit. I dont know what you mean by "is this all we get" but believe me, its a very good deal financially, included in that price is maintenance follow up costs and other stuff like that.

ARG!!! why am i defending this!

I just posted here because I thought others would be interested...

dahamsta

Originally posted by Sleipnir
We don't have any skyscrapers to knock down.

Not a skyscraper by any stretch of the imagination but we do have the County Hall in Cork. Course, all you'd really need is a fat man to lean on it.

adam

Sleipnir

Originally posted by dahamsta
Not a skyscraper by any stretch of the imagination but we do have the County Hall in Cork. Course, all you'd really need is a fat man to lean on it.

adam

People would also be cheering if someone knocked that thing down and that's not the end-result your average terrorist is after.

Walter Ego

Originally posted by Morphéus
"Your" not actually buying anything, so dont be complaining. The Department of defence paid for them out of their OWN coffers.

Don't cod youself, the only money the Dept of Defence has is the money that comes from the State. That is me and you. I'm assuming that you are an Irish taxpayer.

Unless of course they raise their own money by fund-raising, cake sales, raffles, sponsored bungee jumps etc etc.

Don't get me wrong, I was in the Defence Forces for a number of years and I have respect for the men who serve in them. I just don't see value for money.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Morphéus
Look, if we have these brilliant but expensive CASA maritime patrol turboprop aircraft flying around drug busting and stopping illegal fishing, and then go cheap and train our pilots in an old cessna or marchetti piston engined aircraft, its kinda unsafe and doesnt make sense really.

Um. You do know they train them in the CASA before they let them fly it, right?

Morpheus

ok Walter.

look,

you dont need forces to follow up on sea interception of vessels involved in illegal activity, the aircorps and navy work together, the plane sees more of the area the navy ship is working in, for obvious reasons, and can then call the navy to the location of a suspect vessel.

A navy ship can get there pretty quick, its knowing where to go that matters. A sea vessel sould never outrun a plane, most times when they are ID'd they will either follow the aircrafts radio operators instructions and turn to port, or they will be picked up by a naval vessel.

Im not going into details about how the aircraft may or may not be armed bacause im not aware if its public knowledge and im not speculating on anything which may or may not be true, and could in fact contravene the OSA and end up with me being prosecuted. If your interested, go look up the Australian Air Force and their use of the PC9.

my apologies if i insulted you, but i did stop short of calling anyone a mupper!!

The irish train the Army ranger wing to jump from aircraft using the CASA and the Cessna as well as sending them to work alongside other EU special forces in this role.

Army troops generally initially train in Holland and then can maintain their skills using above aircraft although with the requirements these craft have on them due to our corps small size, its a bit of a luxury.

We are NOT actually neutral, we DO have a foreign policy of non involvement without a UN mandate, we dont however have neutrality enshrined in our constitution.

We should be able to secure our own borders nevertheless.

As for light strike role? if the air corps ever deploy with the army in a UN role, and whos to say that will never happen, they may be required to provide close in support if our troops get in a bit of trouble, this role has always been the one that keeps them an air corps and not a coast guard.

I told you the other roles, theres also Combat SAR to pull out injured troops, and not just abroad, this could be from a naval vessel, or on a training mission in ireland. They will still train in SAR for this and to back up the civilian contractors too.

The aircorps has been flying junk, saving lives, calling for newer safer equipment to fly in, dying in said useless junk and no-one has stepped forward publicly to demand the aircorps get the right equipment. Operators in the last few years, have been the bravest airmen this country has ever seen. My friend was winchman on the Dauphin that crashed in tramore killing all on board. They were returning after a SAR mission over the western seaboard, if may have been avoided if theyd had the right training paid for and a better more modern helicopter to fly in.

As you can see, government cuts result in deaths.

look this is getting off topic slightly, go to http://www.irishairpics.com and ask your questions there, someone better able to answer them can make things clearer for you.

slan leat.

Morpheus

Oscar bravo,
i know that, but you must fly single engined before you can fly twin engined, and a turboprop is whole different ballgame to a piston engine.

Im sure that you can appreciate, that with the demands of maintenance, and surveillance, that with a lack of availablility of CASA aircraft for initial training, then flying a turboprop single engined trainer can reduce lead in time?

ishmael whale

Originally posted by Morphéus
yes that is a really dumb question.
......................
I just posted here because I thought others would be interested...

I am interested. I saw 60 million for eight aircraft, opened the picture and said “is that it?” I worked out the unit cost, looked again and said again “is that it?” At this stage I was very interested.

I sure that 2 ejector seats and a proper modern "glass" cockpit. (as distinct from a reprehensible old “non-glass” cockpit) are nice. And I’m sure they are much nicer than what the rotten old Americans were selling.

Does it morph into a Megazoid or something?

Walter Ego

Originally posted by Morphéus
my apologies if i insulted you, but i did stop short of calling anyone a mupper!!

No need to apologise, I am a muppet. My father was a muppet and his father before him. I fact my muppetery can be traced back for many generations.

Back on topic.

I think the Air Corps should be supplied with dual purpose craft, helicopters would be best. Hopefully we will all spend our lives in peacetime and our aircraft will only ever be needed to rescue people and safeguard our fisheries.

As I said we are a small neutral country. Our Air Corps can and does provide a great service to the people of Ireland. We will never be sending aircraft abroad to take part in any operations. We don't have enough of them. We would be left without the meagre air cover we have now if we were to do so.

I salute your friend and the sacrifice he made and the willingness of other flyers to do the same.

Morpheus

:eek:
did i say we ARE neutral?

BLASPHEMY!!!

I meant, we are NOT actually neutral, we DO have a foreign policy of non involvement without a UN mandate, we dont however have neutrality enshrined in our constitution.

We should be able to secure our own borders nevertheless.

Occidental

Originally posted by Morphéus
Look, if we have these brilliant but expensive CASA maritime patrol turboprop aircraft flying around drug busting and stopping illegal fishing, and then go cheap and train our pilots in an old cessna or marchetti piston engined aircraft, its kinda unsafe and doesnt make sense really.

So you're saying that all the current CASA pilots are poorly trained and unsafe.

Walter Ego

Originally posted by Morphéus
I meant, we are NOT actually neutral

I think we are neutral. Wasn't it declared during the Emergency and never repealed? In much the same way as the Emergency was never repealed. I am pretty sure of this as the "state of emergency" is the basis for the Special Powers Acts which are currently in force.

We should be able to secure our own borders nevertheless.

Tell that to the families of the people who died in the Dublin bombings. I believe the perpetrators didn't come from all that far way either. Who protected our borders that day?

Morpheus

I didnt say that the pilots are poorly trained... stop putting words in my mouth!
im implying that a turboprop trained pilot will be initially more at home in a turboprop aircraft, this should make the transitional training easier and quicker.

Thats not the only reason that they were bought anyway!!! They were seen as the best trainer aircraft that the projected funds could acquire.

As for neutrality, its not in the constitution... check for yourself
http://193.178.1.117/upload/publications/297.htm

Nuttzz

not all this again....:rolleyes:

Mods PLEASE!!!!

Hobbes

Originally posted by ishmael whale
I've had a look at the picture. Dumb question. Is that all you get for €7.5 million?

Looks like an updated WWII spitfire.