Finally New Trainer Aircraft Arrive To The Air Corps!!

Morpheus

yes MODS
please remove nutzz's post, its irrelevant, I started this thread, if nutzz, you dont like it, then get off it. Everyone EXCEPT you who posted on this obviously active thread, has had an opinion to debate, you simply moaned. Grow up.

This thread is about the new trainer aircraft, the irish aircorps, and someone mentioned an opinion on neutrality.

Boards is great, but there is no military thread. military is a govt issue which is a political subject vis a vis why im here.

Occidental

Originally posted by Morphéus
I didnt say that the pilots are poorly trained... stop putting words in my mouth!
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Try reading the post I quoted where you referred to the current training methods as "kinda unsafe". Strange as it may seem, this would give me the impression that you consider the current training methods unsafe. If the current training methods are unsafe, it therefore follows that the pilots trained under this method are poorly trained and unsafe. If you don't believe this then why would you use the words "kinda unsafe" when describing current Air Corps training standards.

Morpheus

okay, point taken, its obviously not totally unsafe or they wouldnt do it.

I was trying to get across the point that surely less training will be required as you have to get certified from piston to turboprop, and it will surely be safer to fly newer aircraft, some of the aircraft in use are 40 years old, and the majority are over 20 years old.

Nuttzz

morpheus, this has been argued to death in the past, its the same oul stuff been rehashed, you like fighters etc other dont, we heard all the points before....

dahamsta

Originally posted by Morphéus
Im not going into details about how the aircraft may or may not be armed bacause im not aware if its public knowledge and im not speculating on anything which may or may not be true, and could in fact contravene the OSA and end up with me being prosecuted.

Funniest thing I've read all month, big thumbs up Morphie!

bonkey

Originally posted by Nuttzz
morpheus, this has been argued to death in the past, its the same oul stuff been rehashed, you like fighters etc other dont, we heard all the points before....

If people want to discuss something, and its appropriate to the forum, then they have every right to do so.

If you aren't interested in the thread, then don't read the thread.

Yes, its the same old tired argument, but there seem to be people on both sides interested in saying it all over again. You've done your bit - pointed out that it has been discussed and where. Now let it go. Please.

Oh - and Morphéus - its not your job to be telling Nuttzz that, like you did above. And don't follow this with a "see, I told you so", or you will get your thread locked.

jc

Mighty_Mouse

Unless of course they raise their own money by fund-raising, cake sales, raffles, sponsored bungee jumps etc etc

just had a mental image................very funny!!:D

arcadegame2004

Even for a small neutral country, our military is pathetically inequipped. Switzerland has a 500 year tradition of neutrality, yet is one of the most heavily-militarised nations in Europe, said to be a factor in Hitler's decision not to invade. We are incapable even of protecting EU meetings in this country from a September 11th-style attack. We don't even have the most basic in anti-aircraft weapons and these new aircraft are still ancient from a technological-modernity point of view. This is not good enough. We need a proper debate on this issue without neutrality being equated to impotence. The latter is not a prerequisite for the former.

Morpheus

the "former" is not even in the constitution.
we're not neutral!!!! its an excuse to turn a blind eye and fence sit til it suits us to get down.

Turkey

This country has never been neutral, no matter how many people wish to hang onto the idea, all that happened was that a particularly narrow-minded and useless statesman did not wish to side with the British, remember this was the man who, according to some interpetations,began the civil war in order to dispose of his more competent political opposition.
I am glad to see the arrival of these new aircrafts, finally one of the worst governments this country has been saddled with has done something useful. This equipment is cheap,versatile, realiable, and has about a 30 year lifespan.
Hopefully they are the first step in a major re-equipping of the IAC.
The timing of the arrival of these aircrafts will put the Irish Air Corps in a good position to operate some examples the new generation of light fighters which are presently approching production, such as the F-50.

thejollyrodger

What do you think bought the land and buildings? Magic beans?

As far as I was aware most of that land was from barracks that the british used to own and it was given to us.

paraphrase " is that all you get for €7,5 million? "

Yeah thats all you get, a souped up, spitfire looking trainer, what were you expecting ?

Walter Ego

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
We are incapable even of protecting EU meetings in this country from a September 11th-style attack.

The truth is we couldn't proect ourselves from a Friday 13th attack much less anything else. You only have to look at the way the army deploy themselves on Bank / Money transfer duty. They bunch up in small groups around the back of the jeeps as if they want to be an easy target. No attempt is made to set up defensive perimeters etc. Anybody who has made any cursory study of military tactics and deployment would overcome them in seconds, take the cash and all their, probably unfired, weapons.

This may seem to be off topic but I am trying to illustrate the unrealistic mindset of those in power in the Dept of Defence. They don't know what they are supposed to be doing but they are quite prepared to buy a few nice expensive toys to dress up the situation.

In the past the Air Corps was used as training ground for future Aer Lingus pilots. Who often having gained experience of commercial aircraft buggered off to better paying airlines abroad. At the moment according to yesterday's news there are 46 Aer Lingus pilots on full pay who are not doing any work because they have declined to be retrained for a new aircraft type. We no longer fly the type of aircraft they were trained to fly. I wonder how many of them ar ex Air Corps pilots who think the state owes them a living?

aidan_walsh

Originally posted by ishmael whale
I've had a look at the picture. Dumb question. Is that all you get for €7.5 million?

What were you hoping for... one of these?



$20million per unit...

We simply can't afford that kind of military spending, even if it were necessary... Which obviously it isn't...

dahamsta

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
As far as I was aware most of that land was from barracks that the british used to own and it was given to us.

Read the small print in the post you quoted. And the posts by others pointing out that public property is the property of the taxpayer. (That people actually had to do this boggles the mind.) Perhaps I should rephrase:

"Who do you think military property belongs to, the fairies?"

adam

thejollyrodger

"Who do you think military property belongs to, the fairies?"

dahamsta, There is no such thing as fairies!!

Of course everything belongs to the taxpayer, but i was saying that the taxpayer was out no net loss

However it could be argued that the tax payer was out a net gain if the money was redistributed to something like Health.

But this arguement just boils down to departmental arguing over funding.

Personally I am in favour of spending more money on the efficent health service without reform :rolleyes:

Walter Ego

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
As far as I was aware most of that land was from barracks that the british used to own and it was given to us.

Remind me to send them a thank you note for "giving it to us":ninja:

And where might I ask did those fúckers get it from?
Did the bring it over in flower pot from London or was it here when they got here?

thejollyrodger

(im not going off thread mod)

Walter Ego, "send Britain a thank you note for giving us military bases in Ireland" (joke)

As far as I am aware, there was no such thing as a country called ireland before the british arrived here. So technically the UK didnt actually take anything from Ireland. Offically history for the state begins in 1921 so we were handed over most of the island.

Walter Ego

I would be inclined to agree as before the British got here we didn't use their language or even alphabet. Eire, Eireann or a variation thereof would be more accurate. The didn't give it to us, we took it back. But this is an entirely different topic.

Back to topic. Sorry.

Morpheus

Wasnt Ireland called Hibernia by the Romans?


Anyway...
Walter... Can you tell me more on what you know about the tactics in use by the army on cash escort? (this is a question not a smart ass rebuff!!)

Were you in the army, i seem to remember you saying something along these lines?

If so, how long ago was it?

I was in Galway a few weeks ago and they certainly werent bunched up, Ive seen them in Balbriggan and Swords too, in section strength, they spread out about a 50-100 yards up and down the street on both sides, and one or two stay outside the front, while some go in with the cash carriers.

This seems fairly efficient to me, they were there only a few minutes before moving on to the next bank. Theres also Garda patrolling with them.

Maybe you saw a pretty inefficient unit, the ones ive seen though are pretty useful. Needless to say, they shouldnt have to do this free cash escort for no extra charge to the banks. there should be private armed security firms and the banks should fork out for it.

Its a gross misuse of Garda and Army personnel.

This may seem to be off topic but I am trying to illustrate the unrealistic mindset of those in power in the Dept of Defence. They don't know what they are supposed to be doing but they are quite prepared to buy a few nice expensive toys to dress up the situation.

The (senior military staff) of the Department are quite aware of what the have to do, its goals were set out in its whitepaper from 2000, the problem is getting the bloody money to do it. Unless you meant the minister himself... in which case im in total agreement, he keeps harping on about what he HAS bought whenever any TDs ask about future equipment necessities.


These arent expensive toys, these aircraft are replacements for the current fleet of trainers, which are outdated and expensive to maintain. They also provide our pilots with newer modern equipment and an improved level of flight training.

In the past the Air Corps was used as training ground for future Aer Lingus pilots. Who often having gained experience of commercial aircraft buggered off to better paying airlines abroad. At the moment according to yesterday's news there are 46 Aer Lingus pilots on full pay who are not doing any work because they have declined to be retrained for a new aircraft type. We no longer fly the type of aircraft they were trained to fly. I wonder how many of them ar ex Air Corps pilots who think the state owes them a living?

I thought we'd been through this, the Air Corps is changing, there are more missions and roles than they can manage with the current aircraft, the age of the airframes in use has resulted in larger numbers of fleet aircraft sitting in hangars awaiting replacement parts and maintenance.

state security,
fisheries protection,
maritime patrol,
Air Space patrol,
Drug interdiction,
SAR backup,
Air Ambulance,
Army Co-Op,
On Going Training,

:rolleyes:
These are some and only some of the pressures on our small corps. Its not just a testbed for Aerlingus pilots.

Employment Contracts have changed too, its no longer easy to join to get your licence and leave.

The current aviation environment doesnt benefit people of this mindset either and salaries have been brought more into line with commercial airlines to encourage retention.:dunno:

Walter Ego

I did serve in the Army many moons ago.

One of the biggest problems was the lethargy that creeps in when you know that nothing is ever going to happen. This is why many of these bank guard units are not as sharp as they could be. They have never been challenged. Soldiers need combat to hone their skills. Why do you think so many Irish troops volunteer for UN duty. Its not just the money. Its the need to be what your supposed to be, in this case a soldier. I can't discuss the tactics for the same reasons you couldn't discuss the weapons on the aircraft. It is fair to say that the standard of efficiency will vary greatly from unit to unit. Just as the pace of life varies from major cities to small towns, the perception of threat will vary from location to location.
AFAIK the banks make substantial payments to the state for this service and since its inception it has been a major success.

Yes I was talking about the Minister and the political point scoring that goes on. The Army Staff are all career soldiers but the Minister after the next election could be back on the the farm milking the cows instead of milking his expenses.

The Air Corps is changing but what are our reasonable expectations of it?
How many aircraft do we think we need to cover the roles you mentioned?How many can we afford?
Can I draw the distinction between being able to patrol an area and able to protect an area. With respect to fisheries, drug smuggling etc unless the aircraft can open fire on a vessel it is a waste of fuel. No drug smuggler is going to wait until one of our small fleet of ships can get there. Unless we follow current policy and only air patrol areas where we already have a ship present. Now that's a joke.

These trainer aircraft are all fixed wing and won't cover an air ambulance role. Helicopters do that. The pilots won't be qualified to fly anything other than the trainer, so they will be no use in SAR or any similar role.

IMO we should model our whole Air Corps on the US Coast Guard. Fully armed helicopters fulfilling multi purpose roles SAR , border patrol, fisheries, drug interdiction etc. These should be aided by small spotter aircraft who can quickly call on their armed response capabilities.

The name Air Corps is itself a dead giveaway. They are most definitely not an Air Force, nor I fear will they ever be.

Ireland covers approx 32,000sq miles plus God knows how much territorial water. How many aircraft would it take to patrol this 24 hours a day, 365 days a year? At the moment there is no after dark capablility. Is it any wonder the country is awash with drugs and guns. All they have to do is watch the planes fly back to base for 4:30pm when the majority of pilots go off duty or watch for the patrol boat to go by knowing it won't be back for 4 days because of the amount of sea area it has to cover.

Do you know what? This is a thoroughly enjoyable debate and I'm enjoying it immensly but I'm depressing myself with the reality. Would it be OK if we just stopped now and pretended that everthing is going to be ok?

monument

Originally posted by Morphéus
Its a gross misuse of Garda and Army personnel.

More like the only real use for the Army.

monument

Originally posted by Walter Ego
IMO we should model our whole Air Corps on the US Coast Guard. Fully armed helicopters fulfilling multi purpose roles SAR , border patrol, fisheries, drug interdiction etc. These should be aided by small spotter aircraft who can quickly call on their armed response capabilities.

I would like to agree, but the EU have got the pickings of what they want from our waters. So what's the point? Drugs can come vie the north or from ports on containers (which very few of are opened).

So that realistically leaves them with SAR.

Originally posted by Walter Ego
Would it be OK if we just stopped now and pretended that everthing is going to be ok?

Lets pretended that everything is ok, well at least until you can come up with something that is realistically possible to happen which we have any possible realistic chance of defending.

Devious

Do these new aircraft comprise the only offensive air capabilities of the Air Corp? (I assume they can be fitted with rocket pods and such). What is the role of the Fougas? Are they intended for jet training purposes only? And is there any plans to upgrade to jets that at least look like they were developed in the last 50 years?

Walter Ego

Originally posted by monument
at least until you can come up with something

Why me? What's your suggestion? Do you have anything better to offer?

Morpheus

Yes Walter,

I have enjoyed it too, you have many valid points,

I would however say that the fixed wing training will qualify pilots for the Cessnas the CASA and as a lead in to fly either of the MATS/Air Ambulance jets (air ambulance being flying back seriously injured irish people from the continent when necessary).

Also I would point out that these trainers are lead in trainers... the lead in being to aclimatise the pilot to a jet cockpit and being a turboprop this gives it similiar handling to a slower jet, they were bought with foresight on the air corps part, i do see a time when europe will push our govt to purchase at leat a rudimentary compliment of jet aircraft to increase the western defences of europe, also i can see the same pressure being applied to cover our seas. The drugs that enter ireland arent only for ireland, they are crossing out of our borders again.

The Coast guard point i would agree with wholeheartedly, there should be a 10 bird wing of Med Lift Helis (would give the army at least a company level air mobile capability and could deploy on peace keeping 10 x Blackhawks prob and they could be purchased second hand, why buy new, when we seem to be able to keep em flying so long!!)
and a 15 bird wing of Light Util Helis fitted out for sea patrols and for armed aggressive control of suspected drug carrying vessels.

The spotter plane role could easily be carried out by a few more cessnas, or even a new direction and something im interested in is the employment of UAVs they can loiter over targets for extended periods of time. Theyre also Cheaper and easier to maintain that standard aircraft.


anyhow, i reckon that the future looks a bit brighter for the air corps, i feel we need it, im sure many of you dont, but please for the sake of interest whether pro or con, do some research on our defence forces and see what good theyve done and how they are viewed by other nations... believe me, they get very little funding by successive govts and have to struglle with what they have. Every sovereign country needs some kind of backup and we also offer a peace keeping service second to none... if our planes and boats dont cover our skies and seas... who will??

By the way Walter, im a recent recruit in the RDF (formerly FCA) but ive had an interest in all things irish and military for a long time, people here would do themselves no harm to find out about the DF. Im sure it wont change your minds on your opinions, but it may make you think again about some of the points you can make in the heat of an argument.

regards to all

Morpheus.

BTW... the last Fouga (of the silver swallows display team) was retired in 1998, it was a light strike jet. we have not replaced it, we are replacing the 10 fixed wing propellor powered Marchetti trainers with 8 of the new Pilatus PC-9M's that arrived yesterday.

silverside

Originally posted by monument
More like the only real use for the Army.

No the real use of the army is to deploy a battalion (or more) at a time overseas in support of the UN/NATO/whoever in places like Liberia,Kosovo,Timor. When you take into account the number of people training and just returned, this takes up a large proportion of the army's strength. It should take up all the army's time except that the army is lumbered with cash escorts, prison guards, and other ATCP duties which in any other country are taken on by a gendarmerie, except that that would mean paying Garda overtime, which soldiers dont get.

This helps with world security, and keeps the army skills up to date, so that if God help us anything crazy happened (like the North erupting into civil war) there would be at least a backbone of trained military there to be able to handle it.

Victor

Originally posted by Turkey
such as the F-50.

Any details of this?

Morpheus

Heres a picture I got of the latest top secret prototype F50 fighter...

F50

And boy is it a Fokker

lol

thejollyrodger

These trainer aircraft are all fixed wing and won't cover an air ambulance role. Helicopters do that.

There is a tender for 6 utility helicopters going out in the next few weeks. The Aircorps wants the blackhawk but it remains to be seen what is purchased

Aircorps eyes up BlackHawk

DMT

When is the Irish army going to get some serious aircraft and not just upgraded spitfires?