Keane pulls out of squad

_blank_ · 27-04-2004 3:33pm

Originally posted by mr_angry
However, if I were another player from that squad, I would feel agreived that Roy had not apologised for the way he handled things in Saipan. I think he owes them, at least.

The way he seemed to be interacting with the players at training yesterday would suggest that he had been welcomed back into the fold.

You are assuming that Roy has done nothing to offer an olive branch to the players, how can you know this? Maybe he has apologised in private to those he felt needed apologising to, I'm not saying he did, but it is a possible scenario, and not one to be dismissed out of hand.

I'd say a lot of work has gone on behind the scenes involving Kerr/Keane/Senior Irish Players/even Ferguson, and this whole thing is a carefully choreographed set of events. From Ferguson saying that he knew nothing of Keane's willingness to play in friendlies ( to appease United fans ) to yesterdays training session where we saw Keane interacting with squad members ( I say this because I think Keane knew he would not be traveling before the training session ).

eirebhoy · 27-04-2004 3:42pm

mr_angry - Do you think McCarthy should have apologised for his part in the row? If not, why?

mr_angry · 27-04-2004 3:45pm

Originally posted by seansouth
The way he seemed to be interacting with the players at training yesterday would suggest that he had been welcomed back into the fold.

You are assuming that Roy has done nothing to offer an olive branch to the players, how can you know this? Maybe he has apologised in private to those he felt needed apologising to, I'm not saying he did, but it is a possible scenario, and not one to be dismissed out of hand.

Perhaps he did. But why not make this public? Why have the media not reported this, since I am quite sure it would be deemed 'newsworthy'. As for making assumptions - you are absolutely correct. In fact, you go on to make quite a few yourself!

Originally posted by seansouth
I'd say a lot of work has gone on behind the scenes involving Kerr/Keane/Senior Irish Players/even Ferguson, and this whole thing is a carefully choreographed set of events. From Ferguson saying that he knew nothing of Keane's willingness to play in friendlies ( to appease United fans ) to yesterdays training session where we saw Keane interacting with squad members ( I say this because I think Keane knew he would not be traveling before the training session ).

I'm not criticising you for this, please understand. But welcome to the world of opinion. I may well be very, very wrong - in fact I often am. But other people should not expect me to take their opinions as gospel truth either.

I would be perfectly happy to accept Roy Keane back into the Irish squad if there was enough evidence to prove that he would not have a disruptive influence on proceedings, and hence prove to negatively influence the teams performance, rather than improve it.

_blank_ · 27-04-2004 3:51pm

A lot of things have happened since Saipan, perhaps the players have decided to let bygones be bygones, maybe you should follow suit.

As you say, any apology from Keane would have been "newsworthy".

But, any animosity from the players would also be "newsworthy", and we would have heard about that.

Irish1 has stated a few times that Stephen Carr is unhappy with the return of Keane, but I don't think I have seen this reported in the media.

Villain · 27-04-2004 3:53pm

Originally posted by seansouth
Irish1 has stated a few times that Stephen Carr is unhappy with the return of Keane, but I don't think I have seen this reported in the media.

Just to correct that, it wasn't with his return exactly, it was with the way the set-up changed before his return, there was several news reports after the czech about a row in the camp, this is what it was. I have no evidence other than it came from a prety high up FAI official.

mr_angry · 27-04-2004 3:53pm

Originally posted by eirebhoy
mr_angry - Do you think McCarthy should have apologised for his part in the row? If not, why?

Wow. You guys are fairly keeping me working on this thread, aren't you? Hold on til I just catch my breath...

I feel since Mick McCarthy is no longer influencing the Irish team, his part in the argument is significantly less relevant to this thread. I see there being a need for Roy to apologise because he let down a lot of people who were relying on him. I feel this is because of the way he handled things. I'm quite sure he had good grounds for complaining about the situation, but that was clearly not an appropriate way to go about it.

No manager could possibly let what Roy said to him go unpunished - it was tantamount to a mutiny. Roy placed him in a 'you or me' position, and naturally Mick decided it was going to be Roy that left. I feel it was the responsibility of McCarthy and the FAI to apologise to the players for the poor training conditions, but not for the act of sending Roy home - that was of his own making.

eirebhoy · 27-04-2004 3:54pm

Originally posted by seansouth
Irish1 has stated a few times that Stephen Carr is unhappy with the return of Keane, but I don't think I have seen this reported in the media.

I'm not sure if he has. Irish1 said Carr was unhappy with Kerr's preperation and stuff, I don't think he mentioned Keane.

mr_angry · 27-04-2004 3:57pm

Originally posted by seansouth
A lot of things have happened since Saipan, perhaps the players have decided to let bygones be bygones, maybe you should follow suit.

Originally posted by mr_angry
I would be perfectly happy to accept Roy Keane back into the Irish squad if there was enough evidence to prove that he would not have a disruptive influence on proceedings, and hence prove to negatively influence the teams performance, rather than improve it.

I think that adequately explains my position.

_blank_ · 27-04-2004 3:58pm

Originally posted by irish1
Just to correct that, it wasn't with his return exactly, it was with the way the set-up changed before his return, there was several news reports after the czech about a row in the camp, this is what it was. I have no evidence other than it came from a prety high up FAI official.

Originally posted by eirebhoy
I'm not sure if he has. Irish1 said Carr was unhappy with Kerr's preperation and stuff, I don't think he mentioned Keane.

I'm sorry for misquoting you Irish1.

However, I feel that now I have been proven correct. There have been no reports of players in the squad being upset with the return of Keane.

eirebhoy · 27-04-2004 4:00pm

Originally posted by mr_angry
I feel since Mick McCarthy is no longer influencing the Irish team, his part in the argument is significantly less relevant to this thread. I see there being a need for Roy to apologise because he let down a lot of people who were relying on him. I feel this is because of the way he handled things. I'm quite sure he had good grounds for complaining about the situation, but that was clearly not an appropriate way to go about it.

After the World Cup, actually during the world cup, why weren't the fans asking McCarthy to apologise? This is little childish comment but "McCarthy started the row" by accusing Keane of faking injury. That is all we know was said in the "room" so how can you say McCarthy can't let what was said go unpunished? If the players accepted Keane back and McCarthy left, would he be turning his back on his country?

_blank_ · 27-04-2004 4:02pm

Originally posted by eirebhoy
After the World Cup, actually during the world cup, why weren't the fans asking McCarthy to apologise? This is little childish comment but "McCarthy started the row" by accusing Keane of faking injury. That is all we know was said in the "room" so how can you say McCarthy can't let what was said go unpunished? If the players accepted Keane back and McCarthy left, would he be turning his back on his country?

Jesus...don't start a Saipan row..for the love of god.

Villain · 27-04-2004 4:06pm

Originally posted by seansouth
Jesus...don't start a Saipan row..for the love of god.

I second that

While hiding behind the door.

mr_angry · 27-04-2004 4:20pm

Originally posted by irish1
I second that

While hiding behind the door.

Add me to that list.

If I could make one final point on the matter: its clear Roy had grounds for being angry, but that does not excuse him in forcing the boss into a 'you or me' situation. It was avoidable, but he still did it. If you want me to admit that McCarthy had things to apologise for - yes, fine. But he's not the one making an Ireland comeback, so I don't see it as being particularly relevant to this argument.

cournioni · 27-04-2004 4:27pm

That is Roy's reason for making his comeback mr. angry... He was made out to be the villan and McCarthy was made out to be Mr. Perfect in that situation.

Both of them deserve a share of the blame for it. McCarthy got barely any, and left the job after in his words "making the country proud". :rolleyes:

If Keane had left on good terms he wouldn't be making a comeback.

mr_angry · 27-04-2004 4:35pm

I fail to see how that negates the need for an apology though.

_blank_ · 27-04-2004 4:42pm

Originally posted by mr_angry
I fail to see how that negates the need for an apology though.

OK...can you accept this:

Keane was happily training with the squad yesterday, even smiling and joking with some of them.

Now, if the players were taking your attitude of "He shouldn't be allowed back without making an apology", do you think they would have joked with him yesterday, and made him feel welcome?

Now, one of two things has happened here, either Keane has apologised, or the players don't want one?

Or are you looking for a personal apology for yourself from Keane before you accept that he will once again wear the Green Jersey?

jesus_thats_gre · 27-04-2004 5:05pm

Roy Keanes return will be more negative than positive.

There is massive media speculation regarding his return. This put massive pressure on Keave, Kerr and the rest of the squad, even more than normal!

How much longer can he continue playing international football? Maybe 2 years?

How many games can in total can he play in this period? 10 to 15 at max?!

How many of those games is he going to be available for selection? I reckon at least half, 75% at most?

He is pretty much gauranteed his place when he is available. So what about the person who replaces him when he is not available?

The combined spotlight of the media and the disruption of playing only two of three games for a meagre two years is not worth it!

BaZmO* · 27-04-2004 5:05pm

Originally posted by mr_angry
No manager could possibly let what Roy said to him go unpunished - it was tantamount to a mutiny. Roy placed him in a 'you or me' position, and naturally Mick decided it was going to be Roy that left. I feel it was the responsibility of McCarthy and the FAI to apologise to the players for the poor training conditions, but not for the act of sending Roy home - that was of his own making.

You could reverse the roles in that argument. McCarthy was the one that called a team meeting trying to out Keane when Keane was sure that it was a sorted matter due to their already "private" meeting.......really bad man management on McCarthy's part!

B.

mr_angry · 27-04-2004 5:06pm

As it happens, I haven't seen the pictures of him laughing and joking with the rest of the squad. But I'm assuming its fairly common knowledge, and I'll take it as contributory, but not conclusive evidence.

If it is the case, then grand - problem solved. (As long as he doesn't throw a wobbler again, of course) :rolleyes:

spongebob · 27-04-2004 5:12pm

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
If Keane had left on good terms he wouldn't be making a comeback.

Yah, like he left Nottingham Forest on Good Terms AISTR . He'll be back there again by September if the media comment in the UK these days is accurate. Forest should be able to sell Reid, buy Keano and have a couple of squids left over as well.

Altogether a good bit of business if he will play sweeper in front of the back four and not complain about it too much.

M

talla · 27-04-2004 5:22pm

Originally posted by Muck
Yah, like he left Nottingham Forest on Good Terms AISTR .

Eh Keane left Notts Forest being voted the fans player of the season.

BaZmO* · 27-04-2004 5:26pm

Press speculation and intrusion is part of the modern game.
You only have to look at the amount of press attention that Beckham gets.
Should he not play for England due to this?
At the end of the day waht really matters is the team performance on the pitch.
Who gives a **** if the hole Irish Squad are at each others throats behind the scenes as long as they can put it all behind them when they are on the pitch.

It's way too early for people to "this" or "that" about his effect on the team, or whether or not he is past it, at very least, wait until he's played a game!!

B.

_blank_ · 27-04-2004 5:28pm

Originally posted by BaZmO*
at very least, wait until he's played a game!!

B.

I want to add something to add to this

at very least, wait until he's played meaningful a game!!

eirebhoy · 27-04-2004 5:33pm

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
If Keane had left on good terms he wouldn't be making a comeback.

Originally posted by Muck
Yah, like he left Nottingham Forest on Good Terms AISTR . He'll be back there again by September if the media comment in the UK these days is accurate. Forest should be able to sell Reid, buy Keano and have a couple of squids left over as well.

Muck, as much as Pornapster's comment sounds ridiculous I honestly believe that if nothing had happened in Saipan, Keane would have retired after the World Cup but now he has unfinished business.:)

and Seansouth, how many times do i have to tell you, if friendlies were meaningless there would be no such things as friendlies.

_blank_ · 27-04-2004 5:36pm

Originally posted by eirebhoy
and Seansouth, how many times do i have to tell you, if friendlies were meaningless there would be know such things as friendlies. [/B]

As many times as you want, but I still won't change my opinion, no matter how hard you try!

eirebhoy · 27-04-2004 5:48pm

Originally posted by seansouth
As many times as you want, but I still won't change my opinion, no matter how hard you try!

You never gave me a straight answer to this, would you prefer to play no friendlies and just throw everyone in for the competitives? Lets say we fail to qualifiy for the World Cup or Euro Champs, we would have no competitive match for an entire year. You are saying that we scrap friendlies and have no match for the 12 months? Training is not good enough. Most people wouldn't put a bet on a Russian team in Europe after Christmas because there season is over and they hadn't played a match for months but they still train every day. Training is nothing compared to match experience.

Keane pulls out of squad

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