Bad day for Beverly!!

Villain

Originally posted by Cork
Yes, I am.

I think that She has been convicted of no offence and her spell with the NIB was before She was elected.

Niether the Gardai or DPP has made any sanction aganist other financial advisors.

:eek: :eek: Nearly fell out of my chair there Cork disagrees with Bertie and the party:eek:

Never thought I'd see the day:cool:

mike65

Its true that Beverly Cooperless Flynn was a civvy back then but that ignores realpolitik. Bertie has no choice but to hang her high with the elections comming.

Mike.

Cork

Originally posted by irish1
:eek: :eek: Nearly fell out of my chair there Cork disagrees with Bertie and the party:eek:

Never thought I'd see the day:cool:

I have disagreed with FF policy many times on these boards.

You didn't even read my post above did you. Boo hiss, I'm upset now.

Don't be - I read your post & it was most interesting.

But, If you are to condemn a TD for her actions before becoming a TD - Why not apply the same standards to all elected representatives.

Beverly Flynn was only trying to clear her name with these court actions. It has shown the justice comes at a price that is far out the reach of many in our society.

If I was libeled - where would I find the resources to clear my name and reputation?

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
Don't be - I read your post

Thanks

& it was most interesting.

Liar:D

But, If you are to condemn a TD for her actions before becoming a TD - Why not apply the same standards to all elected representatives.

Beverly Flynn was only trying to clear her name with these court actions.

I'd happily apply the same standards to all public representatives (and I mean /all/). The trouble with Beverly trying to clear her name is that after the initial case and this appeal it appears that she was trying to clear her name of doing something she had in fact done. As you've said (I've said it too) there are plenty of bank officials in this country who did much (or all) of what she did. There are two clear differences however. RTE ran a report that mentioned her as an example. She sued saying that the report was a lie. Whatever the reasoning behind the initial report, the fact is that she took time out over a number of years to insist that the report was libel. Two cases have confirmed that it was not in fact libel, that it was true. Hence she's been lying for the duration at least since she took the first case

It has shown the justice comes at a price that is far out the reach of many in our society.

It has - all libel cases unfortunately do. However she wasn't libelled and she chose to take the case. We've also no evidence that having been aware of what she did, she didn't take the opportunity to either go public with what the banks were doing or tell the Taoiseach what the banks were doing. Maybe she did, odds are good that she didn't as she chose to deny it ever happened. She still had a chance to admit to her actions and put the banks in their place up to the moment she filed the libel writ. She didn't take that opportunity. And here's why Bertie has to get rid of her. You may classify it as wrong but it looks like an elected member of FF thinks that corruption is OK and that the best way out is to go for broke and sue RTE when accused of it.

If I was libeled - where would I find the resources to clear my name and reputation?

The question for the establishment of an independent press complaints commission or similar, while interesting and worthy of discussion, would lead us rather off topic on this thread. I'd suggest starting a new one without referring directly to the Cooper-Flynn case. Seeing as she wasn't libelled and all that.

Cork

You may classify it as wrong but it looks like an elected member of FF thinks that corruption is OK and that the best way out is to go for broke and sue RTE when accused of it.

Curruptiion is rife in our society. Do teachers declare grinds money? Look at those doing nixers? Look at those who never declared credit union dividend?

It is not confined to one section of our community or one political movement.

I once worked in an accountancy practice - does this make me immoral? We peared back peoples tax liability.

Should I have resigned?

A lot of this moral indigation is pretty fake. Beverly Flynn had a job to do and She did it.

Too many TDs in the Dail are pofaced. Are they suggesting that a trawl thru all TDs pasts is on the cards?

Of course not.

Should we not just have senate style hearings?

All of this happened before She got a mandate from the people of Mayo - Yet B. Flynn is suffering politically because of a job that she once had.

Should any TDs in the Dail with criminal conviction or tax problems face sanction?

Should any TDs found cheating on their husbend or wife not face sanction?

Where do the great moral crusaders draw the line?

alleepally

Just watched Beverly Flynn on Prime Time. Someone joked earlier "Burn the fat double chinned thief".. Looking at the dark lines under her eyes and weight loss this is cruel.

As she pointed out, she was 23 years old at the time in NIB and she was implementing bank policy. She is a scapegoat.. Why are the people who determined the policies she followed at the bank not being brought to court. It's all very well for the Bank as a corporate body to pay 30 or 40 million (how ever much it was, I don't know) but one person in this country is now carrying the can for the whole banking system at the time. Unreal.

What a kick in the teeth for a judge to tell this woman "you have no reputation worth upholding". what the fcuk?

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
Curruptiion is rife in our society. Do teachers declare grinds money? Look at those doing nixers? Look at those who never declared credit union dividend?

I don't know whether they do or not, though i suspect quite a few of them don't. They should. If they don't they'll be paying the penalties some day if they're found out.

I once worked in an accountancy practice - does this make me immoral? We peared back peoples tax liability.

Heh, funny you should bring that up. I did accounting in college. It was shady practices in the accounting industry and two years in an accounting practice that made me decide to drop it. Having said that, most accountants don't actually fiddle too much, they take advantage of tax breaks and loopholes. Which are legal obviously if the breaks and "loopholes" exist. Morals don't come into it (though they did for me). I'm not claiming to be a saint. If I felt like theft I'd do it properly though rather than declaring scuba gear as farm equipment in some pathetic attempt to save a few hundred euros.

Should I have resigned?

Up to you. Do anything illegal?

A lot of this moral indigation is pretty fake. Beverly Flynn had a job to do and She did it.

Yes she did. I'm sure she did her job very well. That isn't the issue. The issue is what the course of action she chose to follow when she was mentioned in a report about fraud being committed by banks and banking officials. No-one's pissing on the women for being a minor bank functionary and only following orders. The papers are reporting on a libel case she took when she denied that she followed orders. The distinction isn't even subtle.

Meanwhile she's not getting impeached as a TD, she's not getting fired as a TD, she may be getting expelled from the FF party and parliamentary party. Not for being a minor bank functionary but for bringing the party's reputation (such as it is) into disrepute by going onto a court and denying something that happened.

I wouldn't fire her from the party to be honest but then any party I was in charge of would hopefully not have a reputation as a shower of corrupt ninnies. Her party does. She's paying part of the price for Haughey, Reynolds, Flynn senior, McSharry young Collins and anyone who crawls out of the woodwork with any financial irregularities, especially those who chose to lie and conceal it. It's a price she may not deserve but no-one's throwing her on to the street. If her reputation is as strong in Mayo as Paul reckons it is (post above) then she'll get elected as a hard-working TD next time out. If people in Tipp North voted for Lowry on that basis (apparently they did) she shouldn't have any problems. I wouldn't vote for her myself purely because I don't like politicians who hide things but I don't vote in Mayo.

Too many TDs in the Dail are pofaced. Are they suggesting that a trawl thru all TDs pasts is on the cards?

Doubt it. Far too many skeletons. Even Lawlor wasn't dumb enough to sue RTE though. Again the issue isn't what she did when the worked for the bank, it's what she did after becoming a TD and seeing her name mentioned on the teilifis.

Should we not just have senate style hearings?

No. And I think you're misunderstanding what those Senate hearings are for.

All of this happened before She got a mandate from the people of Mayo - Yet B. Flynn is suffering politically because of a job that she once had.

Nope, she's suffering politically because of her actions after she became a TD. Not all that many people actually bear her all that much ill-will I suspect.

Should any TDs in the Dail with criminal conviction or tax problems face sanction?

Tax problems while a TD, actually yes (that's why they sign that little form on the way in the door now). Criminal convictions, there's a procedure for that as well. Neither are relevant in this case.

Should any TDs found cheating on their husbend or wife not face sanction?

Purely moral issue. Adultery is not a crime in Ireland. Up to individual parties as to whether they want to take sanction against their members for it.

Where do the great moral crusaders draw the line?

I don't know where they do. If you're asking me though, honesty, decency, lack of criminal intent and action, that's about it from my point of view. Not that this is relevant either - you appear to be missing the point that Ms Flynn is in the news again because she failed in a libel case she chose to took, and failed in an appeal of that decision that she chose to pursue. We'd all have forgotten about it years ago if she hadn't.


Like alleepally I'd like to see the various banks taken to task over their actions (as I mentioned in an earlier post). More to the point, I'd like to see the directors of the banks taken to the tasks over the actions of their banks, though I doubt that the extensions to directors responsibilities in the Companies Acts were in place at the time. Losing a libel case is a different thing though. No-one said the woman orchestrated anything. They made a statement, she chose to sue, she lost. End of story.

Victor

Originally posted by alleepally
As she pointed out, she was 23 years old at the time in NIB and she was implementing bank policy.

Which is a full 9 years over the age of criminal resposibility. Hey, we jail people for shop lifting, why not for aiding tax evasion. At least the average 17 year old gurrier will face the music, she is just being a spolit brat.

"Flynn denies assisting tax evasion" - she might have told her father to not mention that she set up his offshore account for his IR£50,000. from Gilmartin.

Mighty_Mouse

I can sympathise with the other side of the argument here. In that she was in a job where everybody was doing it, it was before she became a politician, noone else has been chased by the Gardai etc etc

BUT
She continued to lie after she was found to be guilty. She has continued saying that Charlie Bird was not telling the truth.

Personally I would of prefered if she came clean from the beginning

PS
I would prefer if I was not dragged into other peoples arguments. I'm well able to defend myself as I see fit Irish. TY

Villain

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
PS
I would prefer if I was not dragged into other peoples arguments. I'm well able to defend myself as I see fit Irish. TY

Sorry I didn't mean it to look like you were involved personally, just fed up of every thread turning into SF bashing. Apologies if I offended.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Beverly Flynn worked in a bank and sold products provided by the bank. What saction has been brought aganist other financial advisors?

So you object to anyone being the first to be sanctioned, is that what you're saying?

What sanctions have been brought aganist banks after the DIRT enquiry?

Payment of what was owed, including additional fines, if memory serves. Also, one reason why the sanctions were so light was because once the whistle was blown, the banks turned around and said "fair cop", co-operated, and didn't hold two court cases over two years insisting that the charges were false in order to clear their name.

Beverly Flynn was only trying to clear her name with these court actions.

Yes indeed. Just as, for example, Milosevich is only trying to clear his name in the War Crimes tribunal. Trying to clear your name does not mean you haven't done anything wrong....and the courts found out that Bev was not defamed - she actually did what she claimed was libel.

Ifv a teacher did not declare his grinds money for tax should his political party throw him out?

If he's an elected member, then I would most certainly expect them to, yes, especially if that teacher had - rather than paying his tax bill once caught - fought two legal battles insisting that (s)he didn' t owe any tax and that those who claimed (s)he didn't were liars.

If Bev is being ejected from the party, then I would expect the same to happen to this notional teacher. Why Cork, do you believe that illegal activity should not go unpunished?

What next, Cork? You're going to suggest that because most teachers don't get caught for not declaring their grinds, it would be wrong for even the tax office to try and claim their due because others aren't being nabbed?

It is amazing how our public representatives love taking the moral high ground. Beverly Flynn has not been convicted of anything.

No, but it has been shown in a court of law that allegations made against her were not unreasonable, being based on truth. Her insistence over the two years make her integrity highly susceptible. Not only that, but while she has not been convicted of anything, that is most probably because the government chose not to prosecute.

Bev knowingly colluded with an employer to help customers perform illegal activities. Despite the government not choosing to prosecute, she fought two legal battles to complain about others disseminating fact about her past, using the lie that what was being said was false.

She may not have a court conviction, but that doesn't mean she hasn't done anythign wrong, nor has she shown her moral character to be particularly noteworthy - either then (for colluding), or now (for attempting to have the truth classified as libel).

jc

Villain

I think this article is interesting given the course of action taken with Bev.

http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1420

I maybe incorrect here and if I am I apologise, but I don't think Bertie treated Michale Collins (who settled with the Revenue Commissioners for a total of over €130,000 for tax due on income on a bogus non-resident account) the same way as Bev.

I know Collins resigned but I think it was dealth with differently.

What do people think??

Cork

Originally posted by bonkey


Bev knowingly colluded with an employer to help customers perform illegal activities. Despite the government not choosing to prosecute, she fought two legal battles to complain about others disseminating fact about her past, using the lie that what was being said was false

jc

What sanction has been brought aganist any other bank official or financial advisor?

They is very little likelyhood of any sanctions been brought aganist any bank official or financial advisor.

Beverly has been not been found guilty of anything. Yet, She faces bankrupcy and expulsion from FF.

Down thru the years - Some TDs in the Dail from many partys had tax affairs that were not in order.

They never faced expulsion. So, why is Beverly facing expulsion?

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
What sanction has been brought aganist any other bank official or financial advisor?

What relevance is that? Are you saying that if all are not punished, none can be?

They is very little likelyhood of any sanctions been brought aganist any bank official or financial advisor.

You can be pretty sure they will all face the same sanction - that of not being permitted to represent a major political party in the Dail.

Your complaint is that an affected group have sanctioned all relevant involved people. Its entirely within their rights, just as any future employer or internal review board would be entitled to consider any of the involved peoples' activities when it came to character assessment for job suitability.

Beverly has been not been found guilty of anything.

No, but it has been shown that allegations she insisted were false were not. What, exactly, does that say about her integrity? And what if not integrity - or at least the appearance of it - is the currency of a politician?

Yet, She faces bankrupcy and expulsion from FF.

She faces bankruptcy because she chose to fight a legal battle of her own free will, and lost it.

She faces expulsion from FF because she has effectively no credibility or integrity left - not because she was involved originally, but because she fought and lost a case where she said someone was lying about her. Do the math and work out the logical implications of what that says about her, and you have to see where the censure has come from - regardless of whether or not you agree with it.

Down thru the years - Some TDs in the Dail from many partys had tax affairs that were not in order.

They never faced expulsion. So, why is Beverly facing expulsion?

Perhaps because there is a general movement whereby the members of the Dail are learning that the public will no longer accept such double-standards and the setting of people above the law.

Regardless, you simply cannot seriously suggest that because a problem has persisted in the past that no steps ever be taken to try and ensure that it comes to a halt? Do you really feel that allowing corruption to continue is a better path than trying to start making an effort to put a stop to it? Because thats what your argument is centred on, Cork - that Bev shouldn't be punished because up to now, others have been allowed get awa with it.

And you know whats funny. If she was from some other party, I'm guessing that you would be the one issuing the condemnation of allowing someone with such a shredded reputation to continue in the Dail.

I mean - for a man who insists that a hard line has to be taken against Sinn Fein, I find it tragic that you can juxtapose that with this condoning of corruption, and what amounts to little more than a plea to continue ignoring the problem as if it were some sort of preferable solution.

jc

Cork

Originally posted by bonkey

I mean - for a man who insists that a hard line has to be taken against Sinn Fein, I find it tragic that you can juxtapose that with this condoning of corruption, and what amounts to little more than a plea to continue ignoring the problem as if it were some sort of preferable solution.

jc

There is no comparrison between the activitys of Beverly Flynn & SF. SF has links to an illegal army that has killed many on this island. Non Resident Accounts were a problem accross many banks.

bonkey, Beverly Flynn is been singled out for harsh treatment. There is zero consistancy here.

There was a case a number of years ago where a TD had links to a Ansbacker Account - He was not expelled.

Where have financial advisors or bank officials been sanctioned for following bank policy?

Beverly Flynn held this job well before She got her mandate from the people of Mayo.

Yet, She was singled out in a news report because She subsequently went for election. What investigation do the media do on other TDs past jobs?

Beverly Flynn is a scape goat. Purposed sanctions are not fair or consistant.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
bonkey, Beverly Flynn is been singled out for harsh treatment. There is zero consistancy here.

Cork, no she isn't. I've already explained why this is simply you misrepresenting the case. You can continue to ignore that point and restate your case, but if you're not actually going to discsuss the points that people raise against you, one has to wonder what possible reason you could possibly have for posting at all?

There was a case a number of years ago where a TD had links to a Ansbacker Account - He was not expelled.

I've already addressed this. YOu are advocating a continuation of permitting corruption, and are arguing that finally starting to put an end to it is the wrong thing to do.

Again, if you're not going to address the counter-argument already raised, who do you think you're trying to convince by just restating your original point?

Where have financial advisors or bank officials been sanctioned for following bank policy?

I've already answered this. Again, you're ignoring the answers.

jc

Victor

Burke ... gone
Haughey ... gone (tax & penalties paid)
Flynn Snr ... gone (tax & penalties paid)
Lowry ... going (tax & penalties paid)
Lawlor ... gone
Coveney Snr ... dead
Wright ... fined
Deasy ... fired
Cooper-Flynn ... going?

Cork

YOu are advocating a continuation of permitting corruption

No. But I think expelling a deputy on the basis of a job that She did prior to entering politics puts the watermark for our TDs at a very high level.

I acknowledge that we need high standards for our politicians. But the treatment of Ms. Flynn is far more harsh than the list drawn up by Victor.

But should we now - apply these standards to all public representatives?

How and who are going to police these standards?

Surely, something more procedural is needed than replying on the media.

Is an investigation into say, a multimillion dollar counterfeiting racket warranted?

Link

Do we need special investigators like Keneath Starr?

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
No. But I think expelling a deputy on the basis of a job that She did prior to entering politics puts the watermark for our TDs at a very high level.

It might be. You may have missed everyone pointing out that this isn't why she's getting expelled (if she gets expelled). Rather than repeat anyone I'll just refer you to every post on the thread that isn't yours.


Kenneth Starr is an idiot.

You're projecting. Doing a piss-poor job of it too.

Cork

Originally posted by sceptre

Kenneth Starr is an idiot.

But we probably need a powerful body in the Dail to police standards - not made up of politicians.

mike65

Originally posted by Victor
Burke ... gone
Haughey ... gone (tax & penalties paid)
Flynn Snr ... gone (tax & penalties paid)
Lowry ... going (tax & penalties paid)
Lawlor ... gone
Coveney Snr ... dead
Wright ... fined
Deasy ... fired
Cooper-Flynn ... going?

Deasy? Which Deasy is this?

Mike.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
But we probably need a powerful body in the Dail to police standards - not made up of politicians.

Totally off topic for the thread though.

@Mike
John Deasy

Smoking in the Dail bar and all that.

Zombrex

Originally posted by Cork
No. But I think expelling a deputy on the basis of a job that She did prior to entering politics puts the watermark for our TDs at a very high level.

I acknowledge that we need high standards for our politicians. But the treatment of Ms. Flynn is far more harsh than the list drawn up by Victor.

Er, what???

Cork she encouraged people not to pay tax!!. There isn't a political party in Ireland who would knowingly keep someone, with that track record, in the party, let alone in a party that is in government.

What exactly would be "low" standards??

She was not treated harshly at all. Typical Bertie even gave her a second chance by letting her back into the party while the appeal was going on, even though the appeal was on a technicality, not that there was new evidence she didn't do it! She has made the FF party look even more soft on corruption that they ever did. If I was Bertie I would be fit to have her hung drawn and quartered.

Originally posted by Cork
But should we now - apply these standards to all public representatives?

What, the standard that it would be nice if our public representatives didn't have a track record for encouraging people to break the law??

What party do you vote for!!

Cork

We need a powerful body in the Dail to police standards - not made up of politicians.

TDs activities before becoming elected then need investigation.

If the bar is being put up at a given hieght for Beverly Flynn - It needs to be applied to all public representatives.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
We need a powerful body in the Dail to police standards - not made up of politicians. TDs activities before becoming elected then need investigation.

And what then? Amnesty or McCarthyism?

Cork

I think that in fairness - If we are to set standards for our TDs - such standards should be applied to them all.

Awaiting ah hoc media reports on TDs is not appropiate when you want to ensure standards are being applied to all TDs.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
I think that in fairness - If we are to set standards for our TDs - such standards should be applied to them all. Awaiting ah hoc media reports on TDs is not appropiate when you want to ensure standards are being applied to all TDs.

So how is this to be acheives? A Garda investigation of every prospective TD?

Cork

Originally posted by Victor
So how is this to be acheives? A Garda investigation of every prospective TD?

This is the kernel of my problem with Beverly Flynn. The standards being applied to her are not being applied to all TDs.

Applying standards on the basis of ad hoc media reports & courtcases is not fair.

Either standards should be applied to all or not at all.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
Applying standards on the basis of ad hoc media reports & courtcases is not fair.

Then should Judge Curtin send Bertie a PFO letter?

Cork

Originally posted by Victor
Then should Judge Curtin send Bertie a PFO letter?

There is a difference with the Curtin case that of confidence in the administation of justice.