North Korea's "Leader"

ALLGOOD

Who here would like to punch the head of this guy ?

For him to keep those tens of millions of people in total poverty and isolation is pretty awful. Just look at the train blast situation there at the minute, hundreds of kids injured and not a single hospital with any kind of modern day medicine.

Every time I see this little git on TV I want to smash his ****ing face in !!!

sceptre

I'm not entirely au fait with the leadership of the two Koreas (there's something to occupy myself with this weekend). Is this the guy who fancies himself as a bit of a movie director and has thousands of movies on tape? Or is that the guy in the, erm, totally free and democratic South?

mike65

Originally posted by sceptre
I'm not entirely au fait with the leadership of the two Koreas (there's something to occupy myself with this weekend). Is this the guy who fancies himself as a bit of a movie director and has thousands of movies on tape? Or is that the guy in the, erm, totally free and democratic South?

Thats Kim Jong-il. He has a vast collection of gangster movies by all accounts...and his dad, 10 years dead is still president...

http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,4120,929182,00.html

Mike.

ALLGOOD

He's a pratt alright. I cant say I like America's action in Iraq but I would love to see them invade North Korea, their "government" are in bad need of a reality check and they deserve it.

bonkey

Originally posted by ALLGOOD
He's a pratt alright. I cant say I like America's action in Iraq but I would love to see them invade North Korea, their "government" are in bad need of a reality check and they deserve it.

Yeah. Lets get Seoul nuked into dust. Great idea.

jc

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Nuttzz

Originally posted by daveirl
A free and open American style economy might not make things much better either. Most of the post Communist economies have more people in poverty since the fall of communism than before. So why do you automatically assume that freedom for the North Korean people would ensure a higher standard of living.

Most of the eastern european ex communist states are well on the way to a better standard of living, economies cant be measured in a few years it takes decades of reform you cant expect mircales overnight.
Look at all the people who are starving in NK while its military hogs all the countries resources, it will take decades for people to get used a non militarised country. The NK response to the train incident last week was to close its borders and even though the south offered aid they insisted that it go by sea, which would take 2 days rather than through the border which would have taken 4 hours.

He is a twat, I cant see the chinese proping him up like they did his father 50 years ago if it came to war, they have too much to loose, however if the yanks did attack it would be such a bloodbath as to make Iraq look like a school yard fight, so i cant see the yanks striking first

ALLGOOD

Originally posted by daveirl
So why do you automatically assume that freedom for the North Korean people would ensure a higher standard of living.

I don't automatically assume this, my point is that I find it hard to believe that flakes like il can have control of entire countries in this day and age. The sole reason for this guy to exist - and therefore his country - is to be a thorn in the side of the west, I'm just sad that the North Korean people are forced to go along with his nonsense.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by bonkey
Yeah. Lets get Seoul nuked into dust. Great idea.

jc

Don't you mean Pyongyang? Seoul is in South Korea.

Or were you referring to retaliation of the North Koreans?

bonkey

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
Don't you mean Pyongyang? Seoul is in South Korea.

Or were you referring to retaliation of the North Koreans?

I meant Seoul.

If the US attacks North Korea, where do you think the North Koreans will attack? The US, which their missiles might just be able to reach, or Seoul which is close enough that even existing anti-missile-systems don't have sufficient reaction time to offer any meaningful protection?


jc

arcadegame2004

I have great sympathy for the people of North Korea who live under a Government that has refused to send the victims of the Ryonchung rail-disaster to far more advanced hospitals in China. This despicable regime has killed millions through famines caused by crackpot Stalin-style collectivisation farm policies, as well as through concentration-camps to which the families and other relatives of political dissidents are sent. It test-fired a missile over Japan and into the Pacific Ocean at the other side of Japan. It frequently threatens to turn the US into "a sea of fire" etc. People in North Korea are forced to refer to Kim as "the Great Dear Leader", despite him forcing his people into starvation, oppression and poverty. it is beneath contempt that Kim wont even allow victims of the rail-disaster to get treatment in Chinese hospitals. It is more concerned with avoiding its people seeing how advanced the rest of the world is. If they knew, Kim wouldn't last very long.

Hobbes

Originally posted by bonkey
I meant Seoul.

If the US attacks North Korea, where do you think the North Koreans will attack? The US, which their missiles might just be able to reach, or Seoul which is close enough that even existing anti-missile-systems don't have sufficient reaction time to offer any meaningful protection?


jc

Probably both. NK did a missile test a couple of years ago and the missile landed off the coast of the US. Didn't make any major headlines at the time.

vorbis

Have to say that that guy Kim is a truly atrocious leader. Still though invading him wouldn't as Bonkey said be advisable. Hopefully, he'll eventually be overthrown.

flogen

invading north korea would just make US-China relations very very dodgy, and while US could probably outpower China on paper, they certainly wouldnt like to piss them off and start a war that could last a long time. Besides, the Chinese soldiers are nut-jobs... and the Korean war proved just how unimportant military might is when fighting certainly countries...
The US are happy to put sanctions on NK and bad mouth their leader. The fact that they probably do have WMD is also a big reason why Bush wouldnt touch the place.

Flogen

pork99

North Korea - a criminal rogue state which actually has WMDs.

Far more dangerous than Saddam's Iraq.

I think Bush invaded Iraq because they knew it would be a push-over (unfortunately they did not give the same amount of thought to the occupation).

Though I would love to see that fat creepy mong Kim Jong-il overthrown, an invasion of North Korea would not be a 3 week walk in the park that invading Iraq was.

The Scenarios

Iraq: US invades, Iraq's army falls apart, cheering liberated crowds, Saddam's statue comes down, GW gets cool video of sucessful war for election campaign (yes it has gone arseways but it was so tempting!)

North Korea: US invades, war turns into brutal trench warfare slogging match for 6 months, N Korea nukes a couple of cities in S Korea & Japan, collapse of East Asian economies. And worst case scenario, the N Koreans manage to drop a nuke on Seattle or Portland. Major US city reduced to irradiated wasteland not good background for election campaign. The US would win but if they took 6,000 casualties they would getting off lightly.

There was a program on BBC last year or the year before where a BBC journalist went to North Korea, of course he only saw what his minders wanted him to. When he was leaving he met an American sailor on the plane who had gone to N Korea to deliver food aid. He had spent a few weeks in prison there because he saw a poster of Kim Jong-il and said to the N. Koreans he was working with; "how come he's so fat when everyone else is so thin?"

Typedef

What a load of crap.

The US supported a string of 'South' Korean strong men over the years.

For christ sake South Korea was US backed military dictatorship for thiry years.

At what point exactly did people get labotomies and not know this?

What planet do you have to be living on to validate or explain away thirty years of 'our' style of democracy being pissed on, backed up by the US, to have to validate yet another war in Korea, for 'democracy'.

The Korean war, didn't leave a democratic South Korea in it's wake.

Why was the Northern Military dictatorship bad, while the Southern one was good and benavolaent?

Don't give me the 'North Korea is starving due to Communism', North Korea is starving due to US 'sanctions'.

Perhaps if 'President' Bush hadn't dispelled with the North/South Korean rapprochament that was moving along 'apace', before he stared with his moronic rhetoric, Korea would be five to ten years away from reunification.

It will probably take twenty years or more, since the damage the Bush administration has caused.

Also, talk of Chinese soldiers being good fighters, is really stupid in my opinion, since it's quite likely that 'any' form of war in the region of Korea, China or Japan would be a Nuclear war and in effect would be a catalyst for Nuclear Armageddon, since Russia backs China, and China backs Korea.

Us China war indeed!

vorbis

Typedef, they're starving because they have a moronic leader. He's only now decided to do something to help his people. i.e. trying to establish diplomatic links with the west.

Typedef

Do you deny the US backed military dictatorship in the South Korea?

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror3.html#Korea45


Who exactly are we to pontificate about freedom, when we in the West support the military suppression of others?

Blithely stating the fact that North Korea is a Stalinst dictatorship and reiterating a personal dislike, does not change the fact that the current US administration destroyed the 'Sunshine policy' of North/South rapprochament, since President Bush needed some scapegoat 'rouge' nations, with which to be seen to be getting tough on.

While I may like Americans personally, as people, the US's foreign policy has disgraced the nation, in irrepariable ways.

Perhaps you've watched too much TV and the brainwashing has finally sunk in, since TV reality aka all this hot air about Korea, bears no resembelance to the culpability in the situation of those who seek to go to war to 'redress' it now.

Hobbes

Originally posted by vorbis
Typedef, they're starving because they have a moronic leader. He's only now decided to do something to help his people. i.e. trying to establish diplomatic links with the west.

He was working on diplomatic links before Bushes "Axis of Evil" comment. They even had NK people meet their families again in the south.

He did a serious blow to the diplomatic relations with his off the cuff remark.

Do you deny the US backed military dictatorship in the South Korea?

What ditatorship in SK? Its a democracy, people vote their leaders in. SK got walked all over in the Korean war and it was the US that bailed them out.

Granted now the US profits more on selling them weapons. Also their ability to skip legal problems for their soliders has caused more problems.

Typedef

Originally posted by Hobbes
What ditatorship in SK? Its a democracy, people vote their leaders in. SK got walked all over in the Korean war and it was the US that bailed them out.

http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/K/Korea-south-korea.html

The increasingly authoritarian rule of President Syngman Rhee, along with government corruption and injustice, added to the discontent of the people. The elections of Mar., 1960, in which Rhee won a fourth term, were marked by widespread violence, police brutality, and accusations by Rhee's opponents of government fraud. A student protest march in Apr., 1960, in which 125 students were shot down by the police, triggered a wave of uprisings across the country. The government capitulated, and Rhee resigned and went into exile.

A Second Republic of Korea, under the leadership of Dr. John M. Chang (Chang Myun), was unable to correct the economic problems or maintain order, and in May, 1961, the South Korean armed forces seized power in a bloodless coup. A military junta under Gen. Park Chung Hee established firm control over civil freedoms, the press, and the economy, somewhat relaxing restrictions as its power solidified. Park was elected president in 1963, reelected in 1967, and, following a constitutional amendment permitting a third term, again in 1971.

Park's government was remarkably successful in fighting graft and corruption and in reviving the economy. Successive five-year economic development plans, first launched in 1962, brought dramatic changes. Between 1962 and 1972 manufacturing was established as a leading economic sector and exports increased at an average annual rate of 41%. In Oct., 1972, President Park proclaimed martial law and dissolved the national assembly, asserting that such measures were necessary to improve South Korea's position in the reunification talks with North Korea. In Dec., 1972, President Park was elected to a new six-year term, under a revised constitution, by a national conference. In 1974, a Korean resident of Japan unsuccessfully attempted to assassinate Park in Seoul, fatally wounding Park's wife.

South Korea's economic growth continued with the third Five-Year Economic Plan (1972–76), during which the gross national product rose an average of 11.2%. A second assassination attempt on Park in 1979 was successful, and he was succeeded by Choi Kyu-hah, who quickly instituted a strong military rule. After a period of internal turmoil, Chun Doo Hwan was elected president (1980), ushering in the Fifth Republic. Reforms were made to shift power to the national assembly, and the country's dynamic, export-oriented economy continued to grow. Labor unrest and general dissatisfaction with the government, however, led South Korean leaders to draw up a new constitution in 1987, which mandated popular election of the president and a reduction of the presidential term to five years.

Roh Tae Woo, who was elected president and took office in 1988, fought rising inflation rates brought on by South Korea's growing economy. Roh attempted to improve relations with opposition politicians and with the North, also establishing diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union (1990) and China (1992). In 1992, Kim Young Sam, a former opposition leader who had merged his party with Roh's, was elected president, becoming the first civilian to hold the office since the Korean War.

The country didn't have one, single, civilian leader for nearly 32 years... and it was 'all' US backed.

pork99

Typedef, when will anything like the following happen in North Korea?

In 1996 former presidents Chun and Roh were put on trial on corruption charges and also tried, with 14 former generals, on charges in connection with the 1979 coup following Park's death and the 1980 massacre of prodemocracy demonstrators in Kwangju. Both received prison sentences.

In December, voters elected Kim Dae Jung, who had been a prodemocracy dissident during the country's period of military dictatorship, as South Korea's new president. The economy began to recover slowly from the effect of the 1997–98 Asian financial crisis in 1999, and economic reforms promoted sustained growth. Kim worked to open relations with the North, and in 2000 he traveled there for a historic meeting with Kim Jong Il.

Don't give me the 'North Korea is starving due to Communism', North Korea is starving due to US 'sanctions'.

They're not starving due to US food aid

Face it, Marxism is finished. It was an experiment which did not work and produced some of the biggest mass-murderers in history; Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. 10s of millions dead.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Typedef

Originally posted by pork99
Face it, Marxism is finished. It was an experiment which did not work and produced some of the biggest mass-murderers in history; Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. 10s of millions dead.

I'm not defending Marxism....

Also, lets not get into a semantic debate about, which "ism" has killed more people.

The US, for example 'supported' which is the opposite of opposed, Saddam Hussein, in his war against Iran, in the full knowledge that Chemical Weapons had been used against Northern Kurds.

In terms of a murder trial, that would make the USA and accessory to murder or perhaps an accomplise to murder.

Where exactly is that moral high ground now?

How is it wrong for one side to do it, but excusable for another side to do it?

What yard stick to you measure these actions by?

Either military dictatorship is ok or it isn't.
Either use of Chemical weapons is ok or it isn't.
Either ethnic cleansing is ok or it isn't.

It is completely inconsistent of you to claim that Military junta is OK, so long as it's US backed and isn't Stalinist.... or that somehow, a show trial of 'criminals' from a former US backed regieme ... excuses their actions or the actions of those who supported them.

Perhaps a more honest defintion of morality here, is anything the US says is good.

At least that way, we're all clear on what 'is' and "isn't" allowable in terms of Military Junta, Selling, Procurement and deployment of Chemical Weapons and of couse 'which' side in a war is 'allowed' to commit war crimes.

Clearly when it's 'our' side it's excusable, but, when it's 'their' side it's wrong.

Am I missing the general gist of your arguments here?

Perhaps, a better postulation is that 'all' support of Military Dictatorship is wrong and makes those who do, it complicit in the misrule of people.

So where does that leave our great 'ism' debate?

vorbis

Typedef, no need to turn this into an America bashing thread. Memnoch will be around. I think pork99 is looking at the situation directly. North Korea is supposedly communist and its well ****ed up. The South most agree is now far wealthier. Indeed capitalism has served most of the Asian countries quite well, i.e. Japan, South Korea and China. Simply put capitalism has been the only "ism" to work in this world. And NOWADAYS, South Korea would be what most people would call a democracy.

The Clown Man

Mark my words North Korea will be the cause of World War III and they have every intention of making it Nuclear.

In the weeks leading up to Gulf War II BBC were airing a series of documentaries called "Holidays in the axis of evil." I had watched them all and these guys are the most dangerous by far. Now I am no fan of recent Americans foriegn policies - actually, don't get me started on them but these North Koreans are totally brainwashed by Kim Jong-il and his dead father - for whom they still hold huge parades of celebration. In interviews held by the BBC reporter with random passers by in Pyongyang, it was made very clear to the viewer that every citizen there would gladly welcome a nuclear war with america with the full expectation that they would win; even if they were wiped out they wouldn't mind as long as every American city is wiped off the planet.

God, if you think the Americans are brainwashed by media and propaganda, take a look at these guys. They are mad to the last. And very, very frightening. At least if there is a war, it will be over the pacific and away from Europe. As long as the UK keep their bloody asses out of it.

The main claim of the North Koreans and the threat with which they use is that the have in their posession a number of ICBM nuclear missiles capable of reaching any US city. Here is some starting-point reading for you if you are interested:

http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/kim-il-sung.html
- an Australian veiwpoint and one which would be shared by the western world.

http://www.kimsoft.com/2003/kmc-021118.htm
- an article clearly written by a North Korean propaganda merchant. Note how it is not the patriotic, emotion stirring form of American-style propaganda but a much more educated form. This is what makes them so dangerous in my opinion. They are all very well educated and in general have a relatively highly intelligent population of complete lunatics.

The Clown Man

Streaming Quicktime Movie on South Korea.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-video/Guardian/video/2003/02/12/northkorea.mov


And some more interesting reading.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,863429,00.html

Memnoch

Originally posted by vorbis
Typedef, no need to turn this into an America bashing thread. Memnoch will be around. I think pork99 is looking at the situation directly. North Korea is supposedly communist and its well ****ed up. The South most agree is now far wealthier. Indeed capitalism has served most of the Asian countries quite well, i.e. Japan, South Korea and China. Simply put capitalism has been the only "ism" to work in this world. And NOWADAYS, South Korea would be what most people would call a democracy.

not to go off topic here, but why is it that when someone points out atrocities committed by the america or hypocrisy on their part its American "bashing".

so from now on any time someone talks about North Korea then its North Korea "bashing"

or when they talk about saddam we can say hey "enough iraq bashing there m8".

if you can't deal with the fact that America is a rogue state and has committed or taken part in many many atrocities throughout history, and as typedef pointed out above, doesn't really have a moral higher ground to stand upon then you should just crawl back under your blanket and close your eyes.

Otherwise, feel free to respond to the thread on rogue states and prove that America isn't indeed worthy of the title, or of the "bashing" it recieves

Originally posted by Memnoch
not to go off topic here,

No we'd better not

but why is it that when someone points out atrocities committed by the america or hypocrisy on their part its American "bashing".

Apart from vorbis here can you point to any other instance where he specifically or any other poster has referred to america bashing in recent weeks?

so from now on any time someone talks about North Korea then its North Korea "bashing"

If they are criticising it regularally yes, but in fairness, I've yet to see a thread up here along the lines of North Korea the perfect place to live.

if you can't deal with the fact that America is a rogue state and has committed or taken part in many many atrocities throughout history, and as typedef pointed out above, doesn't really have a moral higher ground to stand upon then you should just crawl back under your blanket and close your eyes.

I'd prefer to form my own opinion - thanks, but to paraphrase what you just said and apply the logic in the other direction...
" If one can't deal with the fact that other people don't share the extent of your opinion....then one should just crawl under a blanket "

I don't subscribe to either position thankfully.

Memnoch

Originally posted by Earthman
Apart from vorbis here can you point to any other instance where he specifically or any other poster has referred to america bashing in recent weeks?

actually yes, Moriarty made a similar reference in a thread of mine quite recently.

If they are criticising it regularally yes, but in fairness, I've yet to see a thread up here along the lines of North Korea the perfect place to live.

and how would that make a diferrence? I haven't seen a thread here about the US being a perfect place to live either.

I'd prefer to form my own opinion - thanks, but to paraphrase what you just said and apply the logic in the other direction...
" If one can't deal with the fact that other people don't share the extent of your opinion....then one should just crawl under a blanket "

no need to put words in my mouth. My statement is quite clear, and simple...
1) the US is a rogue state, and this is according to its own standards and claims of rogue states
2) no one at least on these forums has yet managed to refute the status of the US as a rogue state
3) if someone has a problem with a rogue state being treated as such by posters then they are welcome to challenge the assertion in the thread about the topic. But if they aren't then they shouldn't really make the claim that they have already established and in fact proven that the US isn't a rogue state by make statements like the one vorbis made above.

all that being said, this is a topic about North Korea, and the only reason I posted about the US was that vorbis practically begged me to. So lets please return to the topic about North Korea. if you or vorbis wish to discuss my views ala the US please feel free to start a new thread or reply to the one on rogue states already around.

so i won't be responding to this topic in this thread anymore :P
lest we turn it into an "american bashing" thread as poor vorbis so gravely fears

Originally posted by Memnoch
actually yes, Moriarty made a similar reference in a thread of mine quite recently.

2?
Hardly an avalanche worth mentioning by you then.

and how would that make a diferrence? I haven't seen a thread here about the US being a perfect place to live either.

my point exactly, theres no america favouring threads,but more to the point, it is NK bashing, or more specifically Kim Ill Jung bashing which is an irrefutable point as far as I can see, so what was your point again?

no need to put words in my mouth. My statement is quite clear, and simple...

As a statement of your opinion, but not exactly a proven fact at any time and in the case of the Iraq invasion never legally determined ie opinion only not fact.

so i won't be responding to this topic in this thread anymore :P

Really.
I didn't think I'd have to use this reference so soon.
Oh now wait I could have used it in answer to this but I didn't as that would have made your question Rhetorical which it wasn't.
Besides such a strict definition of off topicness stifles debate in my humble opinion and to be honest I haven't noticed such a tight definition used by anyone else here apart from your good self

vorbis

Memnoch, I was just criticising typedef over "America bashing" because it had very little relevance in this thread. He was making some roundabout point about how South Korea was a dictatorship like the north. Thats being pointed out to be false so really mentioning America is a bit irrelevant when discussing North Korea's leader.