Another minibus destroyed, who was it this time?

Memnoch

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/23DD393A-BEDC-42F0-ACB5-345FF690E4D8.htm

US soldiers have fired on a minibus full of civilians near a checkpoint on the outskirts of the besieged Iraqi town of Falluja.


Witnesses said a hail of bullets from occupation forces on Thursday turned the vehicle into a ball of fire.

Iraqi policeman Fuad al-Hamdani said four civilians were killed in the unprovoked attack.

its obvious this was an accident. That minibus had rocket launchers hidden in it. The US troops were obviously targetting something else nearby but their bullets curved and hit the bus somehow.

bonkey

Originally posted by Memnoch
its obvious this was an accident. That minibus had rocket launchers hidden in it. The US troops were obviously targetting something else nearby but their bullets curved and hit the bus somehow.

No, no. It was clearly an act of terrorism. Only terrorists attack civilians.

Or maybe I misread that. Maybe only terrorists attack kids, but civilian adults are ok to kill like this.

I'm just waiting to see how this is explained away by those who were willing to judge the previous minivan incident on about the same volume of information.

jc

Memnoch

Originally posted by bonkey
No, no. It was clearly an act of terrorism. Only terrorists attack civilians.

Or maybe I misread that. Maybe only terrorists attack kids, but civilian adults are ok to kill like this.

I'm just waiting to see how this is explained away by those who were willing to judge the previous minivan incident on about the same volume of information.

jc

i would say there is a bit more information in this case, as an iraqi policemen who works for the coalition testified that he saw the US troops fire unprovoked on the bus.

its one thing blowing up a bomb at a police station and accidentaly catching a bus in a blast,

its quite another to some how accidentally shoot a bus without seeing it?

Memnoch

and the pro-war crowd conveniently ignore this incident....

if you don't defend the US actions now, I would be greatful if you would please shut up about calling the iraqi freedom figthers terrorists everytime something happens in iraq

mike65

Memnoch it is possible to still be a child killing terrorist while the Yanks are killing children....

Mike.

Memnoch

child killing terrorist? is this a new term?

who is a child killing terrorist exactly?

mr_angry

Clearly the soldiers didn't *know* there were civilians in the minibus. Or they weren't in the area long enough to anticipate the arrival of the minibus.




Hold Me back guys. I'm being ironic.

mike65

Originally posted by Memnoch
child killing terrorist? is this a new term?

who is a child killing terrorist exactly?

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:E2DaOBrvlGUJ:www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/22/content_325347.htm+BAGHDAD,+Iraq+

Those child killing terrorists, silly! Oh sorry I'm the silly one, the CIA/MI6/Mossad planted then did'nt they...?*

Mike.

*please note sarcasm

mr_angry

Its actually sad that I've (we've?) come to the stage of making ironic / humerous references in a thread about such a tragic incident. But there you go.

Memnoch

Originally posted by mike65
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:E2DaOBrvlGUJ:www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/22/content_325347.htm+BAGHDAD,+Iraq+

Those child killing terrorists, silly! Oh sorry I'm the silly one, the CIA/MI6/Mossad planted then did'nt they...?*

Mike.

*please note sarcasm

there is already a thread on that incident and from that thread you guys have failed to prove that it was a terrorist attack,

those guys targetted police stations, which are under coalition rule.

Originally posted by Memnoch

its one thing blowing up a bomb at a police station and accidentaly catching a bus in a blast,

How can you accidently catch a bus with a bomb?
Thats a bit like saying those that placed that bomb in Omagh accidently caught the people walking down the street.
It's either right to target your objectives where innocents will be injured or it's wrong.
If you argue that it is wrong in the case of the americans to do it, then surely you must argue that it is wrong also for the insurgents to do it.
It's interesting that you made no comment about the incident in the thread that you mention on the Basra child killing bomb , yet you seem to make plenty comments on any coalition mistakes why is this?

Memnoch

Originally posted by Earthman
How can you accidently catch a bus with a bomb?
Thats a bit like saying those that placed that bomb in Omagh accidently caught the people walking down the street.
It's either right to target your objectives where innocents will be injured or it's wrong.
If you argue that it is wrong in the case of the americans to do it, then surely you must argue that it is wrong also for the insurgents to do it.
It's interesting that you made no comment about the incident in the thread that you mention on the Basra child killing bomb , yet you seem to make plenty comments on any coalition mistakes why is this?

i'm not going to get into the discussion about the basra bombings on this topic because its already being discussed elsewhere. This topic is about this particular incident so please stick to it...

as for my not commenting... well people like bonkey are doing a good job of articulating views that I agree with in regards to the issue so i don't see a need to post in that thread. But for the record I don't believe that they were targetting the "children" in those attacks, and the explanations for this have been made already by people in the other thread.

As for my reason on commenting on coalition "mistakes" its quite simple really...

its the coalition that has committed the invasion, illegally and immoraly (and no i'm not intersted in getting involved in a semantical discussion about it). But beyond that they continue to be occupying the country and refusing to hand over power to the iraqi's. Since in my view this invasion and occupation is unjustified, and really it is.... that increases the importance of coalition "mistakes".

so can we please return back to the topic... i'm not intersted in entertaining any off topic discussions in this thread as I'd much rather debate the issue at hand here.

also to add, while the coalition are one cohesive body, the same is unlikely of the freedom fighters. If one coalition member commits a "mistake" or "atrocity", the entire coalition is responsible because they are under one over all command, and the "invading army" that stands together. The freedom fighters however are unlikely to be in contact with each other or to be organised on any significant scale. This is more likely a widespread rebellion with individual and isolated cells throughout the country working independently of each other. Therefore its not possible in my view to take the actions of a particular group operating in a particular part of the country and use it to condemn the entire rebellion, which is what some have attempted to do.

Originally posted by Memnoch
Since in my view this invasion and occupation is unjustified, and really it is.... that increases the importance of coalition "mistakes".

So one groups mistakes are more important than another, you do realise that it follows on from that division of standards that one set of killings is less important than the other.
Ergo one set of childrens deaths are more significant than the other because of who killed them, in your view.

So are you saying it's more important to punish one set of people first than the other for the same crime?
Thats hardly very egalitarian.

Victor

Originally posted by Earthman
Thats a bit like saying those that placed that bomb in Omagh accidently caught the people walking down the street.

Well Omagh was a bit of a clusterf***. They were targeting a court house and plced the bomb something like 400m away, which well shows the intelligence of those doing the bombing.

Memnoch

Originally posted by Earthman
So one groups mistakes are more important than another, you do realise that it follows on from that division of standards that one set of killings is less important than the other.
Ergo one set of childrens deaths are more significant than the other because of who killed them, in your view.

So are you saying it's more important to punish one set of people first than the other for the same crime?
Thats hardly very egalitarian.

Please don't try and mis-represent what I said.... Again, the coalition is the aggressor here, therefore they bear the greater responsibilty for events occuring in iraq, which is why its important to focus on their actions.

All deaths of civillians are important in Iraq, however while no civillian death is justified, I would submit that these deaths when occur as a mistake due to an attempt to defend the iraqi homeland are more understandable than when they occur as a result of coalition aggression. Which is why i said its more important to examine the coalition's mistake.

The coalitions mistakes ARE more important bearing in mind that they are currently illegally occupying the country. That being said, off course all deaths of civilians are equally important. I don't see how one follows on from the other necessarily except for your will to make it so.

Again the coalition is occupying iraq illegally, therefore any "mistake" or "atrocity" they commit is already greater in magnitude. Because it is as a result of their illegal aggression.

I'm not saying that I absolve the iraqi freedom fighters of all blame, however they are being forced to defend their homeland, and that is the coalitions fault.

Also you seem insisten on lumping all the fighting by the iraqi's as being the work of one "group". Where I have already pointed out to you that this is clearly not the case...

so if you really want to discuss the events in basra, feel free to start a thread about it and please do mention precisely which group of iraqi's you wish to hold responsible, and then provide us with the proof that they intentionally attacked a civillian target as you are CLAIMING they did... or you could comment on the thread that already exists. Now please stop dragging my post off topic..

this is about the mini-bus incident with regards to the US soldiers shooting it up unprovoked.

I will not respond to any more off topic posts by you in this thread.

bonkey

Originally posted by Earthman
It's either right to target your objectives where innocents will be injured or it's wrong.

Yup. Its wrong.

If you argue that it is wrong in the case of the americans to do it, then surely you must argue that it is wrong also for the insurgents to do it.

I do. What I don't do is insist that its terrorism when the insurgents do it and "an unfortunate but unavoidable consequence of war" when the allies do it.

jc

Originally posted by Memnoch

I will not respond to any more off topic posts by you in this thread.

Well I don't see how its off topic, to compare one agressors mistakes with anothers in the same country and in the same conflict.
I will therefore try to address at least one of your points.

so if you really want to discuss the events in basra, feel free to start a thread about it and please do mention precisely which group of iraqi's you wish to hold responsible, and then provide us with the proof that they intentionally attacked a civillian target as you are CLAIMING they did... or you could comment on the thread that already exists. Now please stop dragging my post off topic..

You seem to be making a case for this thread to soap box the obvious wrong committed by coalition forces.
Whether it was a mistake or not hasn't been established beyond reasonable doubt in my view.
The fact that it was wrong and wreckless has in my view.
The discussion can only be soapbox in nature if you narrow it down to the extent that you cannot compare it with other similar incidents and is too restrictive to class itself as a debate, to my mind.
So if thats what you want to do here, you needn't worry, I won't be challenging any of your assertions or participating further in this thread, as it will be off topic
:rolleyes:

Memnoch

Originally posted by Earthman
Well I don't see how its off topic, to compare one agressors mistakes with anothers in the same country and in the same conflict.
I will therefore try to address at least one of your points.
You seem to be making a case for this thread to soap box the obvious wrong committed by coalition forces.
Whether it was a mistake or not hasn't been established beyond reasonable doubt in my view.
The fact that it was wrong and wreckless has in my view.
The discussion can only be soapbox in nature if you narrow it down to the extent that you cannot compare it with other similar incidents and is too restrictive to class itself as a debate, to my mind.
So if thats what you want to do here, you needn't worry, I won't be challenging any of your assertions or participating further in this thread, as it will be off topic
:rolleyes:

nice try, but as i pointed out, there already IS a thread about what happened in Basra, and its been debated quite extensively... so there is no point in repeating the arguements again in this thread.. thats just repitition...

soapbox? no not really.. its just a topic to debate this particular action by US troops, to come to our own conclusion based on the info availible to us weather this was a mistake, or weather there was some malice involved, or worse weather it was just pure callousness.

People have continuially stated that the US forces DO NOT target civillians... yet here is a case where it would SEEM that thats exactly what they have done...

what you are saying is that you feel you cannot defend their actions without drawing in red herrings about Basra to try and explain away what they have done.

Again, I haven't called the American forces terrorists in this incident, not yet anyways...

Originally posted by Memnoch

what you are saying is that you feel you cannot defend their actions without drawing in red herrings about Basra to try and explain away what they have done.

Incorrect I have not, stated that I ever wanted to defend their actions in this case.

soapbox? no not really.. its just a topic to debate this particular action by US troops, to come to our own conclusion based on the info availible to us weather this was a mistake, or weather there was some malice involved, or worse weather it was just pure callousness.

I see so the next time you ask me a question I can use that defence to not answer it aswell where applicable.
I shall bookmark this post for handy reference so

Memnoch

sure if i ask you a question thats completely off topic....

Sand

Sounds like those soldiers murdered those civillians, there was no provocation apparently. The Coalition need to investigate it and charge those responsible. War crimes on the part of the coalition soldiers work against the efforts of the coalition.