English Independance

The Brigadier

There is much debate on Northern Ireland.

Scotland has a section seeking independance.

Wales has a nationalist movement.

Now why not have English independance?

Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all have a negative impact on the UK's Economy. All are subsidised by England.

I would love to see full devolution with independance for England.

What does anyone else think?

Villain

Originally posted by The Brigadier
There is much debate on Northern Ireland.

Scotland has a section seeking independance.

Wales has a nationalist movement.

Now why not have English independance?

Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all have a negative impact on the UK's Economy. All are subsidised by England.

I would love to see full devolution with independance for England.

What does anyone else think?

You reckon her Majesty would like that??

sceptre

Sure, let's have that. It'll raise the ugly head of the West Lothian Question in the form of the West Bromwich Question (a poor moniker that I just made up) but if it's done right with proper devolution we could even dispose of that little issue.

I'd like to see a system of regional parliaments in England. Not quite the same thing as you asked but with the population in England greater devolution to an organised system of regions would give local people a genuine say over their regional issues. Power to raise regional income taxes that will be used for regional things while regional councils and parliaments answer to Westminster on the financial front. And Westminster still has the power of national taxation to raise funds for national things like motorways.

The difficulty comes when regional areas have to balance the books. Assuming that they can't borrow against assets or against non-asssets (aka "on tick"), to an extent they'll still be beholden to Westminster in the same way that county councils and local authorities are now. Apart from the issue of ensuring that regional corruption doesn't occur and that costs don't spiral, this is the single biggest problem with having a proper system of reginoal parliaments and governments. Off the top of my head I don't have an answer for this yet. I'll think about it. Even in the absence of a concrete answer to that question, I still think at least limited regional assemblies are a good idea (if nothing else, like the Welsh have).

Victor

Actually that is British government policy, hence an executive London Lord Mayor etc.

However Labour will play their cards carefully as the conservatives control a lot of rural areas and they won't want to hand power to them.

David-[RLD]-

Yes.. give Scotland, Wales and England their independence and unite Ireland again, so it'll just be like the good old days.

*imagines 800 years ago*

I'll go get the war gear! *sharpens spear*

spongebob

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all have a negative impact on the UK's Economy. All are subsidised by England.

Nothin wrong with this in principle....I noted a tendency towards it starting in the 1980s . What will the Engish do with their allegedly 'loyal' Northern brethern, you have to be understanding there, imagine a little Jack Russell with arthritic legs that must be put down , gently.

M

The Brigadier

England currently subsidies public services by

£5Billion per year in Scotland

£10Billion per year in Wales

Norther Ireland is subsidised as well, if someone can dig out the annual ammount I'd appreciate it.

I'd much rather get rid of this expense from England and the bitterness that accompanies it.

halkar

Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are independent countries when it comes to soccer and rugby . Though there is only England in Eurovision song contest :rolleyes:

The Brigadier

And all four of the above are rubbish!

secret_squirrel

I'd be for english independence alright, but the last thing needed is regional assemblies, they would be just another bureaucratic drain on the economy. Westminster and Brussels, and Local Councils are bad enough without making it worse.

Although Scotland being a drain - Im not sure thats true - isnt most of North Sea Oil 'scottish'? Although thats drying up anyhow.

Why do you think regional parliaments are needed sceptre? Isnt that just going to increase the tendency for any country to devolve into microstates?

(The science fiction book The Star Fraction has a good example of this)

The Brigadier

Scotland even with Oil incomes still has a defecit as regards public expenditure.

BarryFry

As far as I am aware the share of North Sea oil a country recieves is dependant on the length of their North Sea coastline - which is why Norway gets such a big share. An independent England would therefore get between 40 to 50% of Britain's North Sea allocation.

Most English people I know would be delighted to offload Scotland and Wales, who they generally regard as ungrateful parasites. I doubt if the powers that be would allow it though - the bigger the national entity, the bigger the clout it has in the EU etc.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by BarryFry

ungrateful parasites

Yep, thats about right...you can count Northern Ireland in there as well.

Victor

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Scotland even with Oil incomes still has a defecit as regards public expenditure.

Are you sure about this, would this only be because the oil companies pay their taxes form their headquarters in London? Any stats?

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by The Brigadier

I would love to see full devolution with independance for England.

What does anyone else think?

I just noticed that the original post makes it sound like England is not in control of itself. If I remember correctly from History, it's their own fault for invading and oppressing Scotland, Wales and Ireland to start their "mighty empire" and "civilise the barbarian tribes". Now they're stuck pumping millions of pounds into immorally obtained lands; lands who could easily support themselves if granted independence (or in our case, unity).

So do the English even deserve a break-up of the "United Kingdom"? Scotland, Wales and the north of Ireland can't be blamed for draining money out of England and labelled "ungrateful parasites" because it's England's fault in the first place imo.

If they think they're being leeched they should just break up the Britain and promote a United Ireland. Otherwise I think they're just contradicting themselves by moaning about their economic drain but refusing to break up.

Sorry just had to get that off my chest.

BarryFry

Well, obviously it's a bit more complex than that.

The "English" who conquered Wales were in fact a Norman elite (the same ones who first landed in ireland) and who were still repressing the Saxon "English" by supressing their language (Edward I and his cohorts spoke only French and Latin), and confiscating their land and hunting grounds.

As for the Scots, they mounted plenty of invasions of England in their time, and were just as keen on ruling England as England was in ruling Scotland. Don't forget thet Bonnie Prince Charlie came unstuck not by claiming Scottish independence, but by attempting to "reclaim" the crown of England, from his COUSIN William. In fact it is better to see the wars between England and Scotland as aristocratic family feuds, rather than between antagonistic racially distinct peoples.

Also worth pointing out that many of the most enthusiastic imperialists were Scotsmen, from Adam Smith onwards.

As for today, the maintence of the UK is not necessarily for the benefit of those countries who are part of it , but for the pan-national elite that run it - a surprising number of whom (Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, John Reid etc.) are not English.

Victor

Originally posted by BarryFry
As for today, the maintence of the UK is not necessarily for the benefit of those countries who are part of it , but for the pan-national elite that run it - a surprising number of whom (Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, John Reid etc.) are not English.

Wouldn't this largely be down to the fact that the neo-aristocrats - the Conservative party and their backers - so alienated all other groups that many of them ended up in a grand coalition of minorities under the the Labour Party? Irish, Scottish, Welsh, other ethnic minorities, immigrants, working class, Roman Catholic, urban dwellers, liberals, disaffected conservatives?

BarryFry

Actually, the most sustained and effective opposition to Thatcher was mounted by Conservative aristocrats - Francis Pym, Lord Carrington, Michael Heseltine etc., while her main intellectual encouragers were almost all non-English - Airey Neave (Scottish), Sir Keith Joseph and Malcolm Rifkind (both Scottish jews).

And have you ever walked down a Pakistani street in England (presuming you have ever been there)? You will see more "Vote Conservative" posters than you will ever see in a "white" one. There is no "immigrant" favouritism shown to the Labour Party, no matter what they might kid you.

And what the f**king hell has Roman Catholicism go to do with it?

Remember - Padraig Pearse and the Easter volunteers were not sentenced to death by an English-speaking Englishman. They were ultimately sentenced to death by a Welsh-speaking Welshman - David Lloyd George. History is a lot more surprising than many people think.

Victor

Originally posted by BarryFry
And what the f**king hell has Roman Catholicism go to do with it?

Quite a few senior figures in the British government are Roman Catholics, I think for the first time in a long time.

hate_sycophants

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-

*imagines 800 years ago*

Yes, let's go back to when we were ruled by the Danes!!!!!!

BarryFry

Originally posted by Victor
Quite a few senior figures in the British government are Roman Catholics, I think for the first time in a long time.

Come on then, name names.

Are you seriously trying to portray the agnostic, couldn't give-a-****-about-religion English public as lambeg-banging ultra-prods?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Victor

John Reid (Secretary of State for Health) and I think Hilary Armstrong (Chief Whip) are also catholic. However it is more the shift in ethos than the actual numbers.

Separately, the late IDS and Charles Kennedy are also catholics.

BarryFry

You may be amazed to discover this, but Cherie and the kids aren't actually members of the British Government.

And there's been Catholics in pretty much every British Gov. - Michael portillo, Norman St. John Stevens, John Selwyn Gummer, James Callaghan are examples from the previous Labour and Conservative Govs.

What I really meant was, is it possible to demonstrate that there was a previous bias against Catholics that was only very recently allayed (Outside Scotland and NI, of course)?

Ivan

I'm sorry. I just cant take a post on an Irish website, looking for English independence, seriously.

These are all territories your seeking independence from.

Conquered foes if you will. It is only because we live in a semi-civilised world that Australia and Hong Kong got their independence.

Please, world's smallest violin etc.

BarryFry

When did Hong Kong become "independent"? I think you'll find it is as un-independent as anywhere can possibly be.

I would also have thought that the idea of English independance would be popular with Irish people, as it would consequently mean the independance of Wales and Scotland.

Or is it only the Celts who are allowed to do the rejecting? Is that what really sticks in the craw?