Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed

Ajnag

This is the same president who arthorises the sending of detainees to third party countrys for torture.Yeah?

I see these soldiers getting a soft sentence and a big ****in book/movie deal.


Only in america....

vorbis

Ajnag what do you want to see happen them? :rolleyes:

They're being court martialled and should end up in prison. What else is supposed to happen??

Sand

These soldiers are scum and deserve to have the book thrown at them. Maybe they didnt get a copy of the GC, and they might have gotten proper training for their role but they should have the common cop on not to torture their prisoners. FFS, one of the guys charged is a reservist, a prison officer back in the US - how does he treat his prisoners over there?

Its good to see the Coalition authorities are moving to investigate and court martial those involved. Those pictures will only increase attacks on coalition forces and western civillians in Iraq - in a very real way the actions these morons took are working against the interests of the coalition, and placing the lives of their soldiers under increased risk.

ferdi

Originally posted by vorbis
Ajnag what do you want to see happen them? :rolleyes:

They're being court martialled and should end up in prison. What else is supposed to happen??

prison in iraq ammoungst iraqi prisoners would be fine by me.

ferdi

Originally posted by Sand
Its good to see the Coalition authorities are moving to investigate and court martial those involved. Those pictures will only increase attacks on coalition forces and western civillians in Iraq

not to mention the rest of the west

when bin laden and his boys saw these pictures they must have partied hearty - this is the best ammo he could get to justify whatever he wants.

vorbis

maniacs like him don't really need reasons ferdi. After all the fall of istanbul in 1453 still troubles him greatly. Any why would being in prison with iraqi prisoners be good? Do you want to see the troops involved killed? I mean that seriously.

ferdi

i dont want to see anyone killed.

Hobbes

The one thing that gets me with the fox news is they mention the pictures were from last year. The military only found out about it recently.. so wtf has happened during that time.

Memnoch

Originally posted by vorbis
both those statements are spin to me ferdi. also if any of ye actually bother reading that fox news article, you'll find its surprisingly reasonable. Granted it doesn't have the rabid anti-Americanism that one gets on Al-Jazera but it still seems to say the relevant facts. There's also photos available now. What exactly is wrong about the article??

yes Fox news which jumps at the chance to call anyone a terrorist passes no judgement or comment on the war crimes committed here... fair and balanced indeed.

Regarding the incident itself, its wrong and disgusting. The people involved should be court martialled and serve prison sentences. Thats all though. I don't view it as indicative of the US army.

they have committed war crimes. Can you give me a SINGLE GOOD reason why they shouldn't be tried by the international criminal court whose purpose is to try war criminals.

It is entirely indicative of the US army as these men have stated clearly that they were never briefed that this kind of behaviour was unacceptable... this goes to show how the US army is encouraging this kind of behaviour. The ONLY reason they are acting is because they've been caught and the issue is in the public eye.

Iraqi's have reported such abuse of power not only towards pow's but also towards civillians for some time now, but these have been ignored because there was never any such conclusive proof as these photos. You can be as blind as you want, I only hope you will be able to look past the propaganda some day.

Exit

Actually, isn't the article at Fox an Associated Press article (it says it at the top of the page). I've seen it 95% word for word on other news sites.

halkar

And now the British .
So called battle for terrorism continues, or is it turning out to be provoking terrorism?
These US soldiers excuse of "we didn't know, we weren't thought bla bla" is bullsh!t. So where they thought of torturing? They look experienced though.
Looks like we will be seeing many of these sort of info in the media with these money grabbing American and British soldiers selling their stories.

pro_gnostic_8

I wish people would stop using this incident as a big stick to bash America with.

The behaviour of some U.S. personnel in this instance is absolutely repugnant but has been condemned without prejudice by the entire military chain of command from George Bush down. There will be courtmarshalls, and punishment is promised for the individuals involved. This is a far cry from the situation that existed in the Saddam era when such behaviour (and worse) was endemic and an everyday aspect of the system.

In any sample of people you will have a few that are "not nice" individuals; this is the case here. The torture was not systematic or part of the operational planning. It was the baser instinct of a few individuals and done without official consent or knowledge. Saying "Boo, this is awful" is a fair enough response, but to draw a wider and conspiratorial conclusion is a mistake.

halkar

Oh, so pro_gnostic_8, Saddam was doing it and Americans are repeating it. What has change then? Saddam was dictator and ruled the country as pleased but US are there to bring democracy and freedom but it is obvious they are no better than Saddam with amount of people killed in the year and their dictatorship in the country. They are even changing their flag ffs .
I think it is time for the Democratic Americans to see what their family members in Iraq are upto and realise that this is not just for freedom of Iraqi people.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Memnoch

Originally posted by daveirl
The fact they can't be tried by the ICC might be a good one. Well AFAIK.

Is it possible for the ICC to try non signatories citizens in abstentia?

so your saying that a criminal can escape being tried for his crimes because he refused to sign up to the law?

Memnoch

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
The torture was not systematic or part of the operational planning. It was the baser instinct of a few individuals and done without official consent or knowledge. Saying "Boo, this is awful" is a fair enough response, but to draw a wider and conspiratorial conclusion is a mistake.

an isolated incedent you say? Amnesty international would seem to disagree...

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"Our extensive research in Iraq suggests that this is not an isolated incident. It is not enough for the USA to react only once images have hit the television screens".

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so EITHER Amensty International are LYING, or this is NOT an isolated incident.

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Amnesty International has received frequent reports of torture or other ill-treatment by Coalition Forces during the past year.

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note the words FREQUENT REPORTS

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detainees have reported being routinely subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment during arrest and the first 24 hours of detention.

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note the word ROUTINELY

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Many detainees have alleged they were tortured and ill-treated by US and UK troops during interrogation. Methods often reported include prolonged sleep deprivation; beatings; prolonged restraint in painful positions, sometimes combined with exposure to loud music; prolonged hooding; and exposure to bright lights. Virtually none of the allegations of torture or ill-treatment has been adequately investigated.

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so they complain that they have been ill-treated or tortured, and the coalition refuses to investigate...


quote:

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In February 2004, during a hearing into the death in June 2003 of Najem Sa'doun Hattab at Camp Whitehorse detention centre near Nassiriya, a former US marine testified that it was common practice to kick and punch prisoners who did not cooperate - and even some who did. The marine had been granted immunity from prosecution for his testimony.

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quote:

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Such reports of torture or other ill-treatment by Coalition Forces have been frequent in the past year.

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daveirl

This post has been deleted.

bonkey

Originally posted by Memnoch
Can you give me a SINGLE GOOD reason why they shouldn't be tried by the international criminal court whose purpose is to try war criminals.

The fact that even teh ICC's purpose is only to try those where they have not been justly tried for their alleged crimes under a relevant national jurisdiction.

Even were the US in the ICC, these soldiers would only be eligible to be tried under its auspices were the US to refuse to try them, or to choose to decline to try them in favour of the ICC. However, should it wish to deal with its own, then it would still have the right to do so.

What worries me is not so much that this happened, but how it was possible. I find it difficult to believe that people so seemingly careless about covering their tracks (what with the photos, assuming they are real) managed to do all of this with no-one else knowing about it. Even more unsettling are the allegations concerning the lack of specific GC-related education for the troops - especially those being assigned to a detention facility.

None of this excuses their actions, but similarly, the probe should not stop at finding those directly involved, but also in determining how and where the system failed in every respect in allowing this to come to happen, and - most importantly - what can be done to ensure this doesn't happen again.

Yes, its an isolated incident (to date), and hopefully remains so. It does not tarnish the entire US army, nor indicate any sort of intent at any senior level for this to happen, but it is still simply not going to be enough to try and dismiss this in any way as being entirely related only to those directly involved.

It is entirely indicative of the US army as these men have stated clearly that they were never briefed that this kind of behaviour was unacceptable... this goes to show how the US army is encouraging this kind of behaviour.

Or that it is simply culpable of a grevious oversight. I mean, shouldn't we at least wait to find out if this failing was an isolated incident, or systemic policy before even attempting to draw conclusions about its intent?

jc

halkar

Some of those abusers are private contracting security and US army can't do much about them. So they say. So what happens to these private abusers?
Makes me sick that seeing these private contractors making 3000-4000$ a day where as the Iraqi security forces that is trained and put in frontlines risking their lives without any protection are only making around $50 a month. And US security companies making fortunes out of this Iraqi deal by sending sickos to Iraq.

CivilServant

One of the soldiers, Staff Sgt Chip Frederick is accused of posing in a photograph sitting on top of a detainee, committing an indecent act and with assault for striking detainees - and ordering detainees to strike each other.

He told CBS: "We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things ... like rules and regulations."

His lawyer, Gary Myers, told the Guardian that Sgt Frederick had not had the opportunity to read the Geneva Conventions before being put on guard duty, a task he was not trained to perform.

Mr Myers said the role of the private contractors in Abu Ghraib are central to the case.

How can these american fúckers get away with this? Oh man, those buggers should all burn in hell. Iraqi liberation, GW Bush, the reason they're there in the first place, the natural resources of a devasted country. I'm sick to death of these damn amercians.

I think we are in "it's only wrong if the Americans do it" territory here. The Iraqi "resistance" can drag people from their cars and burn them to death or massacre chidren in schoolbuses and the same peple who are condemning the Americans here will say "Oh well they are resistance can do anything they are defending their country against occupation"

So pork99, you're trying to soften what the americans did? They should pay for their actions like everyone else in the civilised world.

Arabs consider public nudity as dishonorable.

Dumbass americans trying to put a spin on everything. It's all a game to them.

I wish people would stop using this incident as a big stick to bash America with.

I'll bash american when I want to, it's a free country. America is big enough to look after itself...

pro_gnostic_8

TO MEMNOCH

Indeed, probably this was NOT an isolated incident. More than likely there have been others. That's the corollary of soldiering in a hostile environment: you'll always get a few individual soldiers who feel under threat, and consequently react in a vicious and psycopathic manner to those who are trying to kill them.

The point is, tho', that this behaviour was not part of any directive issued to Allied troops to perform thus, in contrast to the Saddam regime where such inhumanity was systematic and institutionalized.

halkar

pro_gnostic_8, we seen US siege to Felluja recently causing many civilians dead and wounded all because of those 4 contractors murder. So can you say Iraqis were right to burn the bodies of those contractors and dance on them? They are under "threat and consequently react in a vicious and psycopathic manner to those who are trying to kill them" too as well as being invaded by an unwanted force. As I stated before Iraqis probably knew what was going on in the prison long time before me and you found out since the pics were taking late last year.

Saddam, Saddam, Saddam, all because he did it doesn't give right to invading soldiers to do it. After all they invaded Iraq to free these people from torture too. Saddam is gone, finished will be trial and judged and probably be hanged or shot somewhere in Iraq, we will find out. And I think Iraq is faaaaaar worst off than when Saddam was in power, we knew all about Saddam but only started to find out about US and God only knows what we don't know. Iraqi prisons are full of people most of whom doesn't even know why they are put in prison. It is easy for US soldiers to just pull anyone and make them out to be terrorist and jail them with no trials hearings and no contact with outside and on top of all that you get pictures plastered all over world. How democratic this is?

Tuars

Seymour Hersh writes in The New Yorker:

As the international furor grew, senior military officers, and President Bush, insisted that the actions of a few did not reflect the conduct of the military as a whole. Taguba’s report, however, amounts to an unsparing study of collective wrongdoing and the failure of Army leadership at the highest levels. The picture he draws of Abu Ghraib is one in which Army regulations and the Geneva conventions were routinely violated, and in which much of the day-to-day management of the prisoners was abdicated to Army military-intelligence units and civilian contract employees. Interrogating prisoners and getting intelligence, including by intimidation and torture, was the priority.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

I think it was a bit more than a few bad apples...

Memnoch

Originally posted by bonkey
I mean, shouldn't we at least wait to find out if this failing was an isolated incident
jc

bonkey - according to Amnesty international.

Our extensive research in Iraq suggests that this is not an isolated incident.

read more above on quotes from amnesty international regarding the "isolated" nature of such incidents.

Memnoch

bonkey -

as you pointed out, if the US doesn't deal fairly then this should be brought before the ICC... there are a couple of reasons why I feel this should be brought in front of the ICC

1) So that the testominy in these cases is made public. Its important to know if these guys had some kind of "orders" to act like this, or if there was some kind of "direct" authorisation no matter how subtle (which I feel there was). If they are tried in the US military court, this information will never come out.

2) The US's considering a "letter of reprimand" into the record of the commander responsible. I would hardly call that justice?


also as you quite correctly pointed out.. how was this sort of thing allowed to happen for so long? I would feel that it would be naievete to attribute something so major to a matter of "simple" oversight. DELIBERATE oversight perhaps, if you get my meaning. All the more important why this trial should be held under the public eye by the ICC.