Army Ordered to Use Live Ammo

aodh_rua

A friend of mine who is an officer in the Defence Forces says that the Army's orders over the weekend are as follows.

If they are called upon to support the gardai, they do things in the following order...

1. Box in the protestors
2. Support the use of water cannon
3. Respond with LIVE AMMUNITION

Re-read number 3 - the army have been ordered to respond with real, live, deadly ammunition. No rubber bullets are to be used (the army are trained in them, the guards are not) as the Minister fears the negative connotation of using rubber bullets vis a vis the North.

What kind of country are we in where we can't even protest without the risk of loosing our life and limb.

Nuttzz

one word, bull****

your on the receiving end of a windup

SheroN

don't protest so and ruin everyones day by blocking up the city.

Devious

Originally posted by aodh_rua
No rubber bullets are to be used (the army are trained in them, the guards are not) as the Minister fears the negative connotation of using rubber bullets vis a vis the North.

So what your saying is theyd rather use live ammo than rubber bullets in order to avoid comparisons with the North? Do you honestly believe that makes any sense?

cruiserweight

I think the exact order was "shoot and protestors on site and then hang their bodies triumphantly on the barriers in the Phoenix Park, so that the EU leaders can see how a police state is run"!

Right?

aodh_rua

I'm as incredulous as the rest of you - but I don't have any reason to doubt my friend. I also doubt very much that it would ever come to that stage. What does amaze me is that the army seem to have cosidered their rules of engagement and this was their result.

Nuttzz

Is this friend a full time soldier or part time? the part timers are not involved in the mayday security so if thats your source.....

The army will not fire unless fired upon or that their lives are in grave danger, therefore I refer you to my first post on the matter

Lump

Well if people are going to riot I say shoot them.... it's not always shoot to kill.


John

aodh_rua

He's a full-time officer in the permanent defence forces. Can't really say anymore for his sake.

Nuttzz

He's winding you up, the army public order unit isnt even armed. Riot Shields and batons only.

Jim

How anyone can even concieve of believing this is completly beyond me.

Do you have any idea what repercussions there would be for even thinking of giving an order like this. Dudes with rocks VS. Army with live ammo, shoot on site, box them in? I mean.....wtf? Sorry, but I can't even finish the post.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by Jimeatsmenu
How anyone can even concieve of believing this is completly beyond me.

Do you have any idea what repercussions there would be for even thinking of giving an order like this. Dudes with rocks VS. Army with live ammo, shoot on site, box them in? I mean.....wtf? Sorry, but I can't even finish the post.

Have they already forgotten about what happened on bloody sunday

pork99

I doubt it somehow.

I think you will find that most of the troops standing by to support the Garda Public Order units are trained and equiped as riot squads - helmet, body armour, baton. In other countries that would also CS gas guns & baton rounds and I think if they have those things it the nearest to firearms they will have.

These would be the second line. The first line, I assume, will be ordinary cops without riot gear. In the second line the Garda riot squads reinforced by troops equipped as riot squads. I think it's in the third line of defence you would have the guys with firearms like the Garda Emergency Response Unit and the army Ranger Wing.

flogen

I imagine (and hope) that if live ammunition was to be used it would be a last resort, as in if protesters stormed the Dail (but only after theyd thinned out the political ranks a little ).
The way this post reads is that any trouble and you get shot, which is a joke

Flogen

vorbis

ah but sure a couple dozen dead protesters would hardly be a bad news story for the government.

Victor

Anyone breaching security at Farmleigh will be shot (if necessary).

On the street, it would take a lot before the Army would take to shooting someone, but they can (serious rioting, looting, etc.), but I understand the Riot Act has to be read in public before this can happen (hence the phrase "reading the Riot Act")

Nuttzz

Originally posted by Victor
Anyone breaching security at Farmleigh will be shot (if necessary).

thats a serious last resort Victor and you know that, short of them been armed with an RPG,no one will be shot.

Victor

Originally posted by Nuttzz
thats a serious last resort Victor and you know that, short of them been armed with an RPG,no one will be shot.

Well actually the rules of engagement will be a lot more "robust" than that.

Nuttzz

Originally posted by Victor
Well actually ....

????? spit it out man

spongebob

Originally posted by Victor
Anyone breaching security at Farmleigh will be shot (if necessary).

On the street, it would take a lot before the Army would take to shooting someone, but they can (serious rioting, looting, etc.), but I understand the Riot Act has to be read in public before this can happen (hence the phrase "reading the Riot Act")

Anybody refusing to respond to a challenge to halt can be shot by any soldier on guard duty at that location, that is standard army practise and has been for years. The soldier will be court martialled and fined the price of the ammo if he misses . This is the 'defence of post ' rule of engagement.

The use of live ammo on the street is covered by the serious damage to GOVERNMENT property'' (not McDonalds) and 'aid to the civil power' clauses in the rules of engagement and also 'defence of post' if a soldier is specifically ORDERED to guard McDonalds for example..... or a Securicor Van.

Every soldier also knows that if they do not CHALLENGE in the first place they may not then use live ammo, the Riot Act is a Civil Power issue . How many people have been shot and killed in Ireland by the Irish Army since 1923 or so ???? None as I understand it.

Armed but poorly trained and badly disciplined police are far scarier as the casualty figures demonstrate quite clearly. The last policeman killed by a gun in Ireland was shot by a colleague , outside a Bank near Athy strangely enough. Every time I see the plod with their Uzis I am reminded of the contemporary punk song about the notorious Athy Bank Robbery in the late 1980s .

"Right ! Give us all your money or we'll call the cops"

M

Barry Aldwell

Originally posted by aodh_rua
He's a full-time officer in the permanent defence forces. Can't really say anymore for his sake.

2 words:

Walter
Mitty

:rolleyes:

Victor

Originally posted by Muck
How many people have been shot and killed in Ireland by the Irish Army since 1923 or so ???? None as I understand it.

Thats what the Garda is for. More seriously, the army will have killed people in that period, if nothing else by firing squad.

Originally posted by Muck
The last policeman killed by a gun in Ireland was shot by a colleague , outside a Bank near Athy strangely enough.

Abbeyleix.

spongebob

Originally posted by Victor
More seriously, the army will have killed people in that period, if nothing else by firing squad. Abbeyleix.

These were "planned outages " Victor.

Armed plod in Ireland are scary people , avoid at all costs. Remember that bald flute in the naff white jacket who fired a clip down O Connell St at unarmed targets with people everywhere (and while being photographed) in the 1980s , he was still an armed detective a year later.

M

Nuttzz

oh look, no one was shot, theres a surprise :rolleyes:

/me hums the muppet show theme tune